The Tao of Dying

[sree]

Yes, I told you am an old farm girl so I have seen a raggedy old one eyed raccoon who was allowed to live (because we didn't shoot him),a limpy old doe who we were amazed seemed elude the hunters for years and an old squirrel who foraged at the bird feeder whose fur seemed to be turning a whiter shade of gray- he too was allowed to live.

 

The old farm girl died out with the dustbowl in the thirties. She wouldn't have let that racoon live. The "old farm girl" these days is Jane Fonda in designer jeans growing ranunculars and organic basil for the farmers' market two blocks from my house.

 

But really that's all I can think of offhand. I don't people should have a sell by date or be put out on an ice flow at a certain age. I do sort of agree with you since I have worked in nursing homes and hospitals since I was 17 and the sort of warehousing of the old and infirm as well as the high tech measures taken to prolong life for those who are obviously circling the drain is a cluster fail of epic proportions. On the other hand, have seen those well over still 80 still active and having fun. Then there are disease like ALS and Huntingtons- you live and are healthy long enough to reproduce and then when it hits gets bad real fast. That's the problem with evolution, you already reproduced by the time old age is a problem so evolution didn't take care of those problems.

 

I am not proposing that we all kick the bucket at 75. Having worked in nursing homes, you know it just ain't right to let people suffer and not take care of those problems that each one has to deal with on his or her own. I was watching this movie called "Amour" about a handsome loving elderly French couple. One fine day, the wife had a stroke and everything went downhill from there on in. She couldn't move her right arm and was in a wheelchair. Then, she had to be fed by him. After that, she went into depression, refused to eat and he slapped her out of frustration. And finally, he suffocated her with a pillow and killed her. And that is not the Tao of dying.

Edited April 26, 2013 by sree

[sree]

HA HA HA HA HAAAA

 

ROFLMAO!

 

Not only is Sree casting pearls galore left and right in addition to his aspersions and innuendoes in rolling barrages across the field. Flattening all that will not agree with him or pay him the homage that he craved and yearned for.

 

I am glad that you feel entertained. May the spirit of Chuang Tzu be with us.

 

What do I see now but profused offerings of PhDs and assistant professorship as well.

All his to give as he wishes. How about telling us which academic he is from? That is so free with $$$$

for Sree to throw even in times of recession?

Guess next he will throw in his Gulfstream.and fleet of RRs to ferry anyone signing up to be his minion and acolytes

 

Sree should take his medications properly or the only farm he is going to will be the funny farm.

 

Nah! nix that! Sree is so entertaining and positively delightful cute and adorable character.

 

 

Taoistic Idiot

 

The only time I rode in a Rolls Royce was in Hong Kong. It was my ride from the airport to the Peninsular Hotel. I have not seen the inside of a Gulfstream. The Citation is pretty popular with the Chinese and I flew in it a couple of times out of Singapore to Shanghai to attend Chinese New Year at the invitation of someone I met. He was trying to impress me, no doubt, and I was very impressed indeed. He was only 35, and his grandmother was very happy with the Three Pure Ones judging from the way she showed the grand Taoist home altar to me. It seems like brash young multi-millionaires are sprouting like mushrooms in China while the west is buried in debt.

 

Taoism and commercialism are compardres in China. Only the perverted form of Taoism in the west has a conflict with money.

[DragonsNectar69k]

I am glad that you feel entertained. May the spirit of Chuang Tzu be with us.

 

 

The only time I rode in a Rolls Royce was in Hong Kong. It was my ride from the airport to the Peninsular Hotel. I have not seen the inside of a Gulfstream. The Citation is pretty popular with the Chinese and I flew in it a couple of times out of Singapore to Shanghai to attend Chinese New Year at the invitation of someone I met. He was trying to impress me, no doubt, and I was very impressed indeed. He was only 35, and his grandmother was very happy with the Three Pure Ones judging from the way she showed the grand Taoist home altar to me. It seems like brash young multi-millionaires are sprouting like mushrooms in China while the west is buried in debt.

 

Taoism and commercialism are compardres in China. Only the perverted form of Taoism in the west has a conflict with money.

 

Interesting analysis. That is because China is doing some thing different. They are not invading other countries, but rather going to other countries and helping them build their infrastructure in exchange for resources, unlike the US. Also China has a lot of room for growth in my opinion, so yes there will be millionaires in the coming years there. But Chinese students are still coming to Amurrrica to go to school strangely enough.

 

It is when the 'growth' train stops in China... Like it has here in America, that is when the guns come out and the gluttons begin to see who they can take advantage of to keep their inherit 'posterity'.

Edited April 27, 2013 by DragonsNectar69k

[Wu Ming Jen]

This is Mister Wu, please pardon my crazy Engrish typing. I love that the lights are out and no one knows me here.I happen to be a very successful business owner. I don't want to be rich or "try" to be rich but Rich I am. There are people that make me look poor like Bill Gates but Bill is poor compared to a number of Saudi Arabians, so its all relative.

 

There is so much more than the intellectual mind.,/' tHat mind is like a filter or a governor on a car so it can not reach its full potential. I seriously do not agree with sree on that point. Farmers represent independent and self sufficient people not needing a centralized system. Health, wealth and happiness.

 

Being Rich in spirit one is not spiritually bankrupt and does not need "things" outside of themselves for some kind of satisfaction. When I walk into a non food store (or don't caPitaliZe a letter) there is nothing I need or want. Ok my car maybe worth as much as a cozy little house and my yacht might be a worth a very nice house and 1 of my houses well I won't go there, I think you get my point of having a full life being spiritual and wealthy.

 

Thank you aMerica and all the other countries and the universe for opening up your treasure house. Its open to all 24/7 and it gives so much more than MONEY It gives what MoNeY cAn nOt Buy.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Wu Ming Jen

[Wu Ming Jen]

Wanted to mention that time is relative. biological time, clock time, seasonal time, before time, after time, no time. The eternal now transcends time. The mind struggles in the net.Time flies, time is moving so slow..

 

The mind should be the first thing to get over. The brain wants to think, the stomach wants to digest, the lungs want to breath even our organs have consciousness beyond intellectual thinking. The spirit lives outside of time and yin and yang.

 

Those dimensions affected by time and the laws of yin and yang have been born and have a physical form. So much to this magical time and space we are moving through but I am on Vacation so I'm out of here> until next TIME.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Wu Ming Jen

[sree]

Clearly, what we have here is a FAILURE TO COM-MU-NI-CATE!

Because everyone is perceiving it the other way arround. Like you're one angry yellowjacket crashing the picnic.

Aren't human interactions lovely?

 

I propose we start the thread over so as we can resume peaceful discussion.

 

I think not. What's wrong with anger and getting angry? It's human nature and that's a natural reason why it exists. Does a leopard get a hang-up over spots on its coat? Spots on coat make a camoflage. Leopards don't know that and not even aware of that until some crazy leopard comes along and see those spots as blemishes.

 

In your other thread about digging other people's eyes out, I was angry with that crazy spotless leopard ministering to you and attacked. I was "digging his eyes out". Anger is a natural impulse just as spots on a leopard are natural markings. They are there for a reason. If you feel that the Tao Te Ching has the way (Tao), stay away from crazy leopards. They have been reading what they think is the Tao Te Ching.

Edited April 27, 2013 by sree

[sree]

Operating systems are programs, just bigger ones than your browser or spreadsheet. You can choose to use one with lots of problems like the popular ones or choose and set up a stable one that requires less maintenance and doesn't accumulate problems if you know enough about them.

 

Let's not get away with metaphors. They are figures of speech that are helpful up to a point.

 

I didn't mention a third eye nor did I make an analogy between consciousness and operating systems which is very inaccurate in my opinion.

 

No, you didn't mention the third-eye. I meant to imply that no spiritual or mystic propositions are admissible in our discussion.

 

I made the analogy using operating systems, and why is it inaccurate? Tell me where I am wrong in comparing consciousness to the computer operating system.

 

You just seem to lack the proper concentration to follow discussions with multiple people in a thread if you already confuse me with someone else.

 

I am not confusing you with someone else. Please tell me what you mean by "installing one that is almost impervious to this crap". I don't think it is possible but who knows? I am open to any better alternative to my proposal to "reset" the way consciousness works.

[zanshin]

more to it than operating system organisms have instinct and will to survive. Your computer does not care if it crashes. A rabbit runs and hides to survive, humans use intellect.

[sree]

more to it than operating system organisms have instinct and will to survive. Your computer does not care if it crashes. A rabbit runs and hides to survive, humans use intellect.

 

Are we still a wholesome natural organism with the instinct to survive or have we become a soulless operating system in crash mode? Nuclear weapon stockpiles - like loaded guns cocked and pointed at each other's head - still exist as the hateful human condition that caused their creation and actual use worsens. Nagasaki and Hiroshima could be the initial rockfall that portends a cataclysm. The human computer does not care if it happens.

 

Contemplating death does not invoke the panic that grips the mind at the onset of actual dying. The ability to see demise before it happens activates the will to act. Thus, the rabbit runs and we seek the Tao of dying.

[thelerner]

Are we still a wholesome natural organism with the instinct to survive or have we become a soulless operating system in crash mode? Nuclear weapon stockpiles - like loaded guns cocked and pointed at each other's head - still exist as the hateful human condition that caused their creation and actual use worsens. Nagasaki and Hiroshima could be the initial rockfall that portends a cataclysm. The human computer does not care if it happens.

 

Contemplating death does not invoke the panic that grips the mind at the onset of actual dying. The ability to see demise before it happens activates the will to act. Thus, the rabbit runs and we seek the Tao of dying.

Wholesome natural organism or soulless operating system?? We have the ability to be either. I figure we're inbetween, though I like to think we're mostly on the positive side. Frankly there's not much chance of nuclear wars these days and it seems to be falling every decade. We really don't need nuclear weapons to have Hiroshima number of dead (not even in the 40's). We've proven it can be done w/ machetes. Nuclear weapons are to some extent a boogie man. You'll be shot and stabbed and most probably grow old before there's a nuclear war. I'm not saying a nuke won't go off sometime, but full pledged nuclear war is not in any ones interest.

 

Despite a human disposition for 'now is worse then any time in ever' which is practically written on the walls of cave men, we do live in a relatively benign time, particularly true of high tech 'bums' reading this. Its hard to see it unless you look at the actual statistics. There is a movement towards greater education in the world and its a panacea.

 

back on point. You're right contemplating death is not the same as the actual onset of dying. I repeat, you won't find answers in the written word. Go to the source, where the dying is, volunteer in a hostel for 2 or 3 months. Be with the dying, get to a know a few. Learn from them. I'd also add, don't be married to the word Tao, its too amorphous, particularly in this usage.

 

I'd also add I haven't volunteered, but I'm not the one asking. My 'plan' is surrender w/ a quiet mind. Though it may be hard to execute without practice.

Edited April 28, 2013 by thelerner

[DragonsNectar69k]

Hrmmm. What is worse, the nukes themselves or the geniuses and intelligences and ego that created them?

 

One can be brilliant, but have there heart in a dreadful place. There is no place to hide, every advancement is a double edge sword for those with conviction and heavy hearts.

[sree]

Go to the source, where the dying is, volunteer in a hostel for 2 or 3 months. Be with the dying, get to a know a few. Learn from them.

 

I had a better idea after spending time with the dying in nursing homes to get the feel of death. I went to spend time with the living in death row of prisons and witnessed executions by lethal injection (US) and by hanging (Singapore).

 

Do you think I have learned enough to begin work on the Tao of dying?

[DragonsNectar69k]

 

I had a better idea after spending time with the dying in nursing homes to get the feel of death. I went to spend time with the living in death row of prisons and witnessed executions by lethal injection (US) and by hanging (Singapore).

 

Do you think I have learned enough to begin work on the Tao of dying?

 

No. Because you still care about it as if you could conquer or defeat it. Have an OBE then lets talk about 'death'. It is truly in your mind. Death doesnt mean anything, it has no meaning. It is the individual that gives it meaning. Afraid of the unknown. Have you ever seen ghost or demons, do you think they know death?

[shanlung]

Have you ever seen ghost or demons, do you think they know death?

 

Never occured to me to think along that line.

 

Do the fish in the water know what is water?

 

I think I find it easier to ponder on Wulung tea than trying to think for ghost or demons.

For that matter, do God knows death? Or thats only something he sadistically, or with great compassion, inflict on living entities.

 

Shit!

I think I go back to my Wulung tea.

 

 

Idiotic Taoist

[sree]

No. Because you still care about it as if you could conquer or defeat it.

 

I do care about death very much but not just to conquer or defeat it for myself but to do it for mankind. I am quite at peace with the prospect of not being to able to defeat it for myself personally and ready to meet death like every dumbshit. But I want to devote every minute at my disposal in this life to deal with this sadistic (to quote Shanlung) fate of man and hope that I can blaze the way for others to eventually find the Tao of dying.

 

Have an OBE then lets talk about 'death'. It is truly in your mind. Death doesnt mean anything, it has no meaning. It is the individual that gives it meaning. Afraid of the unknown. Have you ever seen ghost or demons, do you think they know death?

 

If death has no meaning, it won't drive Daoists to seek immortality and longetivity; and healthcare would only amount to dealing with bruised knees and pesky rashes. Fear of death is not only a Daoist problem on account of the belief that tongues will get pulled out by demons in Daoist Hell. Western atheists have no such superstition and are still afraid to die.

Edited April 28, 2013 by sree

[sree]

I'd also add I haven't volunteered, but I'm not the one asking. My 'plan' is surrender w/ a quiet mind. Though it may be hard to execute without practice.

 

Surrender. You mean give up even before Lord Yama comes calling? Even the rabbit runs and hide.

[xor]

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Edited May 23, 2013 by Guest

[xor]

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Edited May 23, 2013 by Guest

[sree]

If you think of dying it's still living. Death is after the dying happens...

 

Athough there is death OF the person, there is no death FOR the person for whom there is only dying which, as you pointed out, is still living.

 

Lying in bed to sleep, I practised dying and intently waited for "death" to come. Time and again, I could never see it coming, and only upon regaining consciousness did I realize I "died". I will practise again tonight..

 

Therefore, the Tao of dying is part of the Tao of living, the last part. Unlike going to sleep. the typical way a person dies is graceless, untimely and undignified. We've got to find the Tao of dying, an artful way to go when we decide that it is time to go.

Edited April 28, 2013 by sree

[sree]

I thought it was useful excercise in getting to out of the box thinking.

 

Indeed, saw the level this discussion was at and wouldn't use terms in discussion that are not generally agreed upon or instantly verifiable.

 

For starters consciousness doesn't have algorithms(skills for humans, programs for computers), those happen before or are parallel to consciousness.

 

An algorithm is a method for action which can be cooking a small fish or forming an opinion. There is nothing before or parallel to consciouness. As I said before, awareness is the operation of consciousness. There is nothing outside of awareness.

 

The only analogy to consciousness in the world of computers would be the one who is operating the computer or maybe a truly self-aware AI... or maybe you are thinking of something like "social consciousness" or something used in softer sciences?

 

But we are a truly self-aware Al.

 

I'm not trying to be mystical but I think everyone needs to lose their beliefs and opinions, even ones they feel are moral or scientific before that can be done. It's alot easier on computers. You just need to know what OS to use, how to use it and install it over your previous one.

 

It is not mystical if you lose your belief (computer instruction) that you are a human being. Re-set your algorithm and verify the truth of all knowledge stored in your hard-drive. I have done that. Will you do it? Al One to Al Two, talk to me.

 

Instead of fear of death, you could see longevity is a natural side effect of good health on all levels and you get better health by being in harmony with the Dao. I agree with you that being drugged into numbness at old age is not good for anyone except the ones raking in money from the drugs. You need to know when to let go of your body that's outlived it's usefulness.

 

What harmony with the Dao? I thought we were not going to use terms that cannot be instantly verified. Good health comes from proper diet, exercise and intelligent care of "the body". This avoid pre-aging due to careless or impoverished lifestyle. Ok, if you want to call it longetivity but don't expect to live for 5000 years.

[sree]

Interesting question. I've been exposed to enough Japanese philosophy that suicide doesn't have as much negative connotation for me as it does for much of Western society.

 

Suicide is as counter-intuitive as jumping off a diving board 20 feet above the water. Natural survival instinct kicks in to stop you from doing that. A diver learns to over-ride that instinct in the same way the Samurai re-sets the algorithm and stick the tanto in his belly and braces for beheading by his attendant. Ugly stuff. This has nothing to do with the Tao of dying.

 

Can't make a blanket statement about others. But personally I'd fight beyond the outset of a serious disease, past perfect health. My grandmother was seemingly on her death bed several times, pulled out of it, recovered surprisingly well and had a few more good years, seeing her grandchildren and enjoying life.

 

Choosing to cling on regardless of the quality of life imposes a burden on others. When a horse breaks a leg, it is put out of its misery immediately.

 

If we quit when the going gets tough we'd never learn to walk, read or write. In a life where there are always good days and bad, the trick is making the good ones count (and maybe seeing the bad ones aren't so bad). The sun on the face, fragrance of fresh air, watching children play, keeping up tabs on your family and friends. Not causing friends and family the unnecessary pain which often accompanies most suicides.

 

Ending one's life in a state of depression or escaping responsibility does cause problems for others. We are contemplating an appropriate exit for the common good. You are talking around the problem when you should be confronting it.

 

There's a line where suicide or letting myself die lies, but life is precious enough not to let it go too soon.

 

No one is proposing kicking the bucket without just cause. There is a noble element to the Tao of dying. I am sure of it. I wish you would help think this through.

[thelerner]

As I said I didn't write it for you cause your not into discussion, you're into dismissal. If you actually wanted help, you wouldn't come across so arrogantly. You read an idea, take it to an illogical extreme, ie 'We shoot horses don't we?' then dismiss it. After you pull the shtick 10, 12 times its boring. I don't think you'll find what your looking for.

 

You can't intellectualize your way out of the death conundrum. You have to put yourself into a position to live it. You quickly dismissed the idea of volunteering in a hospice because you 'Live in hospice'. Great dismissal, you've intellectualized yourself cleverly away from real life knowing. You're on your way to learning nothing.

Edited April 28, 2013 by thelerner

[xor]

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Edited May 23, 2013 by Guest

[sree]

As I said I didn't write it for you cause your not into discussion, you're into dismissal. If you actually wanted help, you wouldn't come across so arrogantly. You read an idea, take it to an illogical extreme, ie 'We shoot horses don't we?' then dismiss it. After you pull the shtick 10, 12 times its boring. I don't think you'll find what your looking for.

 

I am sorry if you find the thrust of my argument boring but I admit we are talking at cross purposes and are not connecting.

The pre-supposition that what you have to say is so objective and so true that if I don't accept what you say, then I am arrogant and standing in the way of my accepting your help. The possibility that both of us are so intelligent that it causes you to rethink and re-evaluate your point of view never occurred to you. So, what happened to democracy and the freedom to be different and be heard?

 

You can't intellectualize your way out of the death conundrum. You have to put yourself into a position to live it. You quickly dismissed the idea of volunteering in a hospice because you 'Live in hospice'. Great dismissal, you've intellectualized yourself cleverly away from real life knowing. You're on your way to learning nothing.

 

Do you realize that your viewpoint about death and dying is held by all mankind since Cain killed Abel? I am questioning that viewpoint because I don't think nursing homes and hospices fit in with an intelligent, artful way of life. I am not proposing that we throw granny over the cliff and do away with the elderly. I am asking you, as a Daoist, to look to nature for guidance. There are no squirrels in wheelchairs, no hospices in beehives. Can their way of life be right and ours is wrong?

[thelerner]

Not boring, just overly dismissive at times. My viewpoint has nothing to do with Cain and Abelishness, it has to do with life experience. You want to find out about the human condition of death, go where the dying is. I don't think you'll find answers watching squirrels or bees. Or intellectualizing.

 

I understand you're not advocating throwing grandma off a cliff, though you were edging close to it with, when they become a burden. In any case that's a distracting side issue, the main being How to die well.(?) I agree a taoist looks to nature for the answers, but, and here is a very important point; different animals have different natures. The squirrel and the bee lead vastly different lives. There way of life is right for them, in some areas they have a genius we could learn from. The question is, is death one of them?

 

Bees, unsentimental, toss the dead out. I don't really dig the whole Bee hierarchy and wouldn't want to base my society on it, though it works them and god bless'em. Squirrels my favorite rodent, they live in the now, like most animals, but does licking wounds and crawling into a dark closed spot to die really what we should seek to emulate?

 

Perhaps the nature we need to look into is human nature, free from cultural conditioning. Let me circle here, modern life has sanitized and kept us from being around and knowing death. Our grandparents, aunts and uncle do not die in our house. We don't have experience being around the dying, as virtually all our ancestors did. A powerful life lesson is kept from us. The artificiality of the situation creates intellectualizing. We end up reading books and articles about an apple, when its knowing its tasting. I don't think we'll know death til it happens, but we can end the taboos and get more comfortable around it by being near its experience.

 

Strangely I was at my neighbors house and he was leading a group of high school kids through the issues of euthanasia. Out of a 100 kids only 5 had ever experienced being in the same room as someone who'd died. Most had misconceptions because so much was only seen in movies or TV. I'm sure I had a point here somewhere. dinner calls.

Edited April 28, 2013 by thelerner