The Tao of Dying

[zanshin]

Are we still a wholesome natural organism with the instinct to survive or have we become a soulless operating system in crash mode? Nuclear weapon stockpiles - like loaded guns cocked and pointed at each other's head - still exist as the hateful human condition that caused their creation and actual use worsens. Nagasaki and Hiroshima could be the initial rockfall that portends a cataclysm. The human computer does not care if it happens.

 

Contemplating death does not invoke the panic that grips the mind at the onset of actual dying. The ability to see demise before it happens activates the will to act. Thus, the rabbit runs and we seek the Tao of dying.

A computer does not have a limbic system. Some cultures seem to do better at taking care of elderly than others. Have you read any of Elizabeth Kubler Ross work?

Edited April 28, 2013 by zanshin

[DragonsNectar69k]

I do care about death very much but not just to conquer or defeat it for myself but to do it for mankind. I am quite at peace with the prospect of not being to able to defeat it for myself personally and ready to meet death like every dumbshit. But I want to devote every minute at my disposal in this life to deal with this sadistic (to quote Shanlung) fate of man and hope that I can blaze the way for others to eventually find the Tao of dying.

 

 

If death has no meaning, it won't drive Daoists to seek immortality and longetivity; and healthcare would only amount to dealing with bruised knees and pesky rashes. Fear of death is not only a Daoist problem on account of the belief that tongues will get pulled out by demons in Daoist Hell. Western atheists have no such superstition and are still afraid to die.

 

So you think your Jesus..... Me too buddy. Me too.

^_^ ^_^

 

For the last time, if you want to die... LEAVE YOUR BODY and see what you are left with and make sure you learn how to ground yourself before you do. Your intellectualizing something that only experience can answer and give insight. I don't keep referring to this because I am trying to convince of my perspective while you sit here and try to formulate a whole new doctrine of thinking called the Tao of Dying. It is quite simple and it is BEYOND the mind.... Good luck 'genius'.

 

Also there are Buddhist who practice the art of dying as well without leaving the body. I have never looked into this nor do I care. But as far as I am concerned, I am dying every single moment of my waking life as my body generates new cells and the old one's die off etc. The only thing that stays the same is my state of consciousness, this is what seems to go beyond the grave and has allowed many to come back and share what they experienced in the 'after-life' which truly means nothing, because said person never truly died, they changed state and experienced something beyond the mind. Beyond this space and time. Thank you for wasting my time.

[sree]

So you think your Jesus..... Me too buddy. Me too.

^_^ ^_^

 

There is Jesus and there is the knockoff Jesus made in China. The latter lives in a world of human beings to whom he ministers.

 

I live in a world where there is only me, and I am ministering to myself. What about you?

 

For the last time, if you want to die... LEAVE YOUR BODY and see what you are left with and make sure you learn how to ground yourself before you do. Your intellectualizing something that only experience can answer and give insight. I don't keep referring to this because I am trying to convince of my perspective while you sit here and try to formulate a whole new doctrine of thinking called the Tao of Dying. It is quite simple and it is BEYOND the mind.... Good luck 'genius'.

 

There is no body to be left behind either now or ever.

 

If the body is real to you, then you are trapped in and can never leave it. To believe that you can is madness.

 

If the body is not real to you, then there is no reason to leave it.

 

Also there are Buddhist who practice the art of dying as well without leaving the body. I have never looked into this nor do I care. But as far as I am concerned, I am dying every single moment of my waking life as my body generates new cells and the old one's die off etc. The only thing that stays the same is my state of consciousness, this is what seems to go beyond the grave and has allowed many to come back and share what they experienced in the 'after-life' which truly means nothing, because said person never truly died, they changed state and experienced something beyond the mind. Beyond this space and time. Thank you for wasting my time.

 

Where did you read all this? The truth about life is not something read from a book or revealed to you by another. Hmmm...did I read this somewhere?

Edited April 29, 2013 by sree

[sree]

If we take it as an analogy then yes. Otherwise we would have to find who programmed us and why.

 

It's not an analogy to me. I, we are this consciousness operating like a computer that conjures a space-time reality in which it lives as a person with a human body. The ever-increasing pressure to live this way - coping with health issues, relationship demands and financial needs - reinforces the substantiality of this reality.

 

Well, isn't everybody out to find out who made us and why? This is an innate curiosity even for one who sees himself as a human being living on planet Earth.

 

I have also done that. Many painful times. As complete a reset as I could get to. I also looked to death as my guide for this verification like you do. I had many beliefs that were dear to me that I discarded and I ended up finding new beliefs a few times only to repeat the process. Some of it was good but alot of it was bad also.

 

Ok, how about an example of a single algorithm change that you accomplished. I am talking about fundamental change. Tell me one mind-set alteration that you made and why? I will go first.

 

The realization that I am this consciousness erases the algorithm that directs me to become and act as a real person. I still conduct myself as a person but for practical purposes only as in the manner I converse with you. Unlike before, socialization is no longer needed. For example, although I still like golf, I watch tournament on TV like before but instead of golfing with buddies, I hit golf balls alone on the driving range.

 

That's why I sort of like what you are doing even if I don't understand the hostility veiled or open toward other posters.

There you have it. I knew you would understand.

 

What hostility? Cite me an instance and I will explain the reason. I am incapable of irrational behavior. .

 

But what is proper diet? There is no proper diet. Excercise? Alot of excercise methods are actually bad for you in the long run. What about intelligent care of the body? Which theory is best and what specialist is right? These are beliefs to be discarded also.

 

I don’t think we need to obsess over a perfect way to take care of the body. I eat food home-cooked using organic ingredients. Any diet regime in a health book or magazine looks ok to me. A half hour jog five days a week is good. I prefer working out in the gym, aerobics and weights for muscle tone and bone density. Yoga stretches in the mornings for flexibility. For bodily balance, coordination and rhythm, I used to attend ballet classes but these days I focus on perfecting the golf swing on the driving range. I can feel the Tao every time the ball is strucked solidly and sail into the sky to land on target.

 

If I stay as I am, healthy and my teeth don’t fall out, I will be content when I check out at 75 after driving my last golf ball on target and a nice meal before I lay me down to sleep

 

So do you have memory of when you reached the point where your body is asleep and you are conscious. What happens then?

 

You are describing a strange situation. My memory goes as far as the point of feeling sleepy when I put the book I am reading and switching off the lights. The next thing I am aware of is waking up either in the night to go to the bathroom or in the morning to the sound of chirping birds.

 

But how important is it to die gracefully and why? And is there a way that is graceful to you and me?

 

How important is it to live gracefully with none of the wars, the brutality, the heartless way in which we abandon and trample on one another in order to survive? It doesn’t make sense when you see the disorder in the human world. It is so out of whack compared to the haunting beauty and order in nature. I don’t know if there is a graceful way to live but I would be quite content if everybody’s fate as a human being is spared the horror that each is suffering or risk suffering in this world.

 

Dying, as you said, is part of living. If the living is artful and correct, then the dying would not be so grotesque and fearsome. I think there is a way and I feel through this discussion, we will find it.

Edited April 30, 2013 by sree

[DragonsNectar69k]

There is Jesus and there is the knockoff Jesus made in China. The latter lives in a world of human beings to whom he ministers.

 

I live in a world where there is only me, and I am ministering to myself. What about you?

 

 

There is no body to be left behind either now or ever.

 

If the body is real to you, then you are trapped in and can never leave it. To believe that you can is madness.

 

If the body is not real to you, then there is no reason to leave it.

 

 

Where did you read all this? The truth about life is not something read from a book or revealed to you by another. Hmmm...did I read this somewhere?

 

Yes, oh great Sree the God. Quite the world you live in it seems.

 

If the body is not real, than surely I can kill thee without any pain nor shame...

 

I was merely hinting at personal experiences as well other experiences that I have read about concerning others and there experiences. If the body does not exist, neither does this realm or earth, it must all be a figment of one's imagination. Therefore you no longer exist. Are you seeking answers from within because you don't trust others or are you TRULY wanting to know the truth for yourself... If the second choice is the case, feel free to ignore me on this forums as you are rather argumentative and conversing with me will only keep you from truly realizing the truth within your self.

 

Good day.

[sree]

That's the problem with evolution, you already reproduced by the time old age is a problem so evolution didn't take care of those problems.

 

You mean evolution only care about the next generation?

[sree]

Yes, oh great Sree the God. Quite the world you live in it seems.

 

Hold on. You can worship when my altar is in place.

 

If the body is not real, than surely I can kill thee without any pain nor shame...

 

The body is not real in the way we believe it to be. When you are "rapped on the head" and the pain you feel reinforces your belief that you are indeed rapped on the head, then that's your reality. When I am "rapped on the head", the pain alerts me to the situation for an appropriate response only. My reality - that I am the consciousness - remains unchanged

 

I was merely hinting at personal experiences as well other experiences that I have read about concerning others and there experiences. If the body does not exist, neither does this realm or earth, it must all be a figment of one's imagination. Therefore you no longer exist.

 

It's not a figment of the imagination. It's all part and parcel of reality as conjured by the consciousness which is not generated by your head. It's the other way round. Your head is generated by the consciousness.

 

Are you seeking answers from within because you don't trust others or are you TRULY wanting to know the truth for yourself... If the second choice is the case, feel free to ignore me on this forums as you are rather argumentative and conversing with me will only keep you from truly realizing the truth within your self.

 

I am seeking answers from everyone and everywhere. I believe that wisdom can only be found through talking with fools. The wise have nothing of value to me.

Edited April 30, 2013 by sree

[Wu Ming Jen]

Seek answers from the quiet one always present within yourself. Believe wisdom can be found within your self. Do not listen to the fool within yourself. Is all the hatred and pure negative energy of the outside world really you? Is your mind you? Is your body you? Is hate you? Is war you? Is death you?

 

There are many lives here now. What world do you want to live in now? It all has to do with what you identify yourself with. What do you identify yourself with? What makes you, you? Did the outside world make you this Way? Did your gender make you this way? Did your country and society make you his way?

 

When you were six was that you or are you more you now at different age? Death is just as natural as birth deal with things at that time. Why waste time with speculation of a future event that we have no idea of the timing or circumstance which is all mind generated BS in my opinion.

 

Think of something. Mind generates how that is but when we are LIVING it, it is not even close to being as the mind generated thoughts / applied to good or bad event.

[xor]

...

Edited May 23, 2013 by Guest

[sree]

The computer "health issues" you mentioned are mostly related to a couple of OS(and things like Java and Flash) on the market and can be pretty much solved by knowing how.

 

It's unfortunate that you keep getting stuck with the computer (invented by Jobs and friends) I use as a "teaching" aid.

 

Having talked to many people who aren't interested at all I'm not convinced.

 

I understand. Generally, nobody cares because they are content with the answers given by their priests and monks and whatever. The others are happy with what their science teachers tell them. The rest just fall through the cracks of life.

 

I had all kinds of dreams of what I was going to do and who I was going to be. Those things couldn't interest me less now.

 

I never had those dreams. I had a sixth sense that told me they meant nothing. I am glad you didn't get lost in that mess.

 

Yes it does lead to first being annoyed at people because you have found something more interesting and people don't care about it.

 

That's not true. I don't socialize because it's a waste of my time and tiresome. It's not because people don't care about what I tell them. I don't go around talking about this stuff I am sharing with you. You think I'm nuts? I just do this on the internet. If I don't get my point across to you, I just crack open a can of beer and watch a movie.

 

Don't delude yourself, everyone is capable of irrational behavior. I don't have to go far back in this thread to find an example:

 

Seriously, I am incapable of being irrational. No one is. And everybody is as sane as you and I. It's just that none of us can see himself as others see him.

 

Did that advance the discussion or your Tao of dying?

 

You mean my conversation with Stosh? I think he and I are still moving along with the required rhythm. If he loses focus, I will get him interested again. That what I do in dressage.

 

They may all look good to you but alot of them make people sick in the long run. Then they will buy into another diet regime and after a time they will look for another.

 

Well, if the diet regime isn't suitable then change it. It's not that complicated. Human bodies are not that different from animals that chomp the grass growing at their feet wherever they find it or chow down on anything they can get their teeth into. Just look at the strapping lions in the wild and the sleek deer that is gone in a flash like greased lightning. The trouble with people is their neuroses about eating. This is why there is a need to get back to basics. Living in the city can really screw you up.

 

It's not strange, that is the early result of the meditation you are doing.

 

Meditation? No, no meditation. Go sell crazy somewhere else. I'm all stocked up here.

Edited April 30, 2013 by sree

[hydrogen]

It's not an analogy to me. I, we are this consciousness operating like a computer that conjures a space-time reality in which it lives as a person with a human body. The ever-increasing pressure to live this way - coping with health issues, relationship demands and financial needs - reinforces the substantiality of this reality.

 

If you're sure that you're AI, how about the environment? Are they "real" or "made" as well?

[sree]

If you're sure that you're AI, how about the environment? Are they "real" or "made" as well?

 

It's "made" and just as "real" as Al is.

 

Look. Do you think that being Al is more ridiculous than being a human being on Planet Earth? Seems to me that we being characters in a Stan Lee comic book is ok and unquestionably correct. Says who? You? Everybody else? Don't you think we humans need authentification from a reliable source? Like an alien life form, for instance. Without that, it's just a belief.

 

So, why don't you give Al a chance? Keep your mind open, think out of the box, and check him out with me. If I am right, we are on the way to discovering the Tao of dying. If not, we stay stuck in this reality to face Lord Yama and Taoist Hell. What have you got to lose?

[hydrogen]

It's "made" and just as "real" as Al is.

 

Look. Do you think that being Al is more ridiculous than being a human being on Planet Earth? Seems to me that we being characters in a Stan Lee comic book is ok and unquestionably correct. Says who? You? Everybody else? Don't you think we humans need authentification from a reliable source? Like an alien life form, for instance. Without that, it's just a belief.

 

So, why don't you give Al a chance? Keep your mind open, think out of the box, and check him out with me. If I am right, we are on the way to discovering the Tao of dying. If not, we stay stuck in this reality to face Lord Yama and Taoist Hell. What have you got to lose?

 

AI or human, it's just a name. I'm not overly concerned with names.

 

I think I'll find out about what "death" is in due course, i.e. when I die, at least another thirty years. Then I'll take the trip of death.

 

Now I'm living. I want to figure out how to have a good life. I'm not dying to figure out death.

[sree]

Now I'm living. I want to figure out how to have a good life. I'm not dying to figure out death.

 

So, what do you think is a good life then? I have been trying to figure that out too looking at an insect crawling in a glass jar. It kept walking round and round and up the jar only to fall back to the bottom where it went walking round and round again before going up and falling back to the bottom.

 

Your life has been lived over and over a zillion times in this glass jar of a reality. When is this insect going to wise up, stop figuring how to live a good life and look at me looking at it in the jar? Now, that would be one smart insect.

Edited May 1, 2013 by sree

[zanshin]

You are the insect's farm animal and when you are dead they will eat you. Insects know how to be patient. Except for mayflies, they live just one day, so it is fly, fly, fly and f..have sex all day long, since that's all they get. Today is the first of May.

[sree]

Hey, farm girl. I would really like your opinion about the best age to check out and calling it a day to make way for babies getting born. I know you said that there are old folks who are sprightly well into their eigthies. Living too long in a body that has given us many good years is like being a guest who overstays. Good guests don't do that.

 

What is your argument against people checking out when the body is still healthy before it starts showing wear and tear?

Edited May 2, 2013 by sree

[zanshin]

I think we probably control much less than we think we do. Wear and tear can be beautiful and old people can still have wisdom even if they don't have mobility, I don't like the way our culture tends to treat seniors as a burden; they should be cherished. I also don't like expensive medical heroics to prolong low quality of life. Both the controlled checkout and the extreme measures to prolong life seem like people trying to control nature, fear of death, fear of life.

 

I'm against the expiration date for another reason, nothing like *dead*line for getting things done. It would be too much mass spazziness with all those people motivated to overcome their natural laziness and check things off bucket lists. Better to stay relaxed, plenty of time.

 

[sree]

I think we probably control much less than we think we do. Wear and tear can be beautiful and old people can still have wisdom even if they don't have mobility, I don't like the way our culture tends to treat seniors as a burden; they should be cherished.

 

The fact is, seniors (apart from the odd 86 year-old grandma gymnast and 83 year-old Warren Buffet) generally are a burden in every home and every society as well as to themselves.

 

I also don't like expensive medical heroics to prolong low quality of life. Both the controlled checkout and the extreme measures to prolong life seem like people trying to control nature, fear of death, fear of life.

 

We are agreed on the prolonging of life. I am not for it and neither are you. It's the controlled checkout that I need your help on. Don't jump to conclusions now. It's our fear of death and fear of life, as you put it, that has brought about a sorry human situation in which the young kill themselves because we are afraid to live, and the old become a burden because we are afraid to die.

 

I'm against the expiration date for another reason, nothing like *dead*line for getting things done. It would be too much mass spazziness with all those people motivated to overcome their natural laziness and check things off bucket lists. Better to stay relaxed, plenty of time.

 

I don't think you are listening to me. That's not your fault. I just can't get through to you.

[sree]

Looks like I will just have to brainstorm further the Tao of dying myself. Self-aware Al has reached a glass ceiling and unable to re-set its algorithm.

 

The existing algorithm, or mind-set, is based on the perception that I am a human person with one life to live in a world of other people. Therefore, I must live it to the best of my ability until I die. I have a body that may or may not be like that of grandma gymnast but just because grandma gymnast can make it to 86, it behooves me to hope for the best and live till 86 regardless of whether reverse mortgage can stretch that far or my teeth can last that long without falling out. At the rate gas prices are rising, I would probably freeze to death at 78 according to the actuarial calculations upon which that reverse mortgage deal was based by the bank.

 

Do people ever think when they are against expiration dates for any number of reasons regardless of the horrific facts of life staring them in the face? For every grandma gymnast, there are tens of millions of seniors rotting away in nursing homes and dying in the streets. Don't even think of throwing them over the cliff. Just let them rot while we focus on grandma gymnast performing on those parallel bars.

Edited May 2, 2013 by sree

[hydrogen]

The existing algorithm, or mind-set, is based on the perception that I am a human person with one life to live in a world of other people. Therefore, I must live it to the best of my ability until I die.

 

That'll be a good start. Living is better than dying for most part.

[sree]

That'll be a good start. Living is better than dying for most part.

 

Living is like riding the tiger. Do you know how to get off?

 

Getting off the tiger without getting ripped to shreds is called the Tao of dying.

 

I don't suppose you are thinking that far.

[rain]

The idea of death was intellectual until a doc told me that I probably would die. It intensified my everyday experience of life. Just like someone on this forum asked me once I started meditating "how long do you meditate, how much time do you spend in meditation"..both these two priceless discoveries have one thing in common. the idea of death and the death of action gave me more life in a shorter span. Both states were like a clean-up. Surplus shit was expelled. What makes it possible for an organism to tell, to organize? What is it about that black space? "Buddhist here buddhist there"..

Edited May 2, 2013 by rain

[ChiDragon]

Sorry, to be so late to ask the question at this point in time.

"The Tao of Dying"

Did you mean
"The way of dying" or
"The principle of dying"......???

[thelerner]

Living is like riding the tiger. Do you know how to get off?

 

Getting off the tiger without getting ripped to shreds is called the Tao of dying.

 

I don't suppose you are thinking that far.

Again, I question the metaphor..riding a tiger..are we really a moment from death every second, one slip and that's that? Not really, most of us will make it past our 60's, we may be a healthier bunch with most of hitting their 90's. Whether its a tiger, horse or tortoise, we're all getting off sometime.

 

I guess a taoist would say we ride an ox, I'd say horse. Its not getting off the horse that's so important(particularly if you only get off once). Its learning to ride well, making a friend of it and getting to where you want to go.

[sree]

Sorry, to be so late to ask the question at this point in time.

 

"The Tao of Dying"

 

Did you mean

"The way of dying" or

"The principle of dying"......???

 

I don't want to give the wrong idea about what I mean by the Tao of dying.

 

It is not 辦法 as in figuring out the way to get out of a bad situation. I am also not talking about the appropriate attitude in facing the prospect of certain death when your doctor tells you that there is no hope and yours is end-stage kidney disease.

 

The Tao of dying is the power of immortality. It is the art to be cultivated by a true Daoist. This has nothing to do with spirituality or Taoist immortals.

 

I am afraid that the more I try to clarify, the more misconceptions I inadvertantly create. It's best I stop explaining.