The Tao of Dying

[sree]

You were promoting the Pope(and Dalai Lama) the other day; the Pope is head of a pedophile organisation known as the Roman Catholic Church. This is well documented. The Vatican has 'special' centers all over the world for its child preying priests, over 50 I believe. Plus it makes 'hush-hush' payments to silence the victims of its vile preying priests. A bishop said that abortion is a worse sin than priests who are pedophiles. The pope says women should be child bearers and stay in the kitchen, they should not get involved in politics etc.

 

I was not promoting the Pope and the Dalai Lama. I was stating that they are educated people who can deal with philosophical questions and hold their own in discourses with the best in academia. Therefore, it behooves you to stand back and consider this fact before dismissing them as idiots you can stomp on, intellectually-speaking.

 

As for the religious organizations they head, I have no comment. Organizations are societies of people, and history does not have a good record of what people - which are made up of guys like you and DragonNectar and Stosh and me - are.

 

As for him being the bishop of some heretic version of the catholic church, so what ! All religions are bogus. They all peddle nonsense and groom the gullible.

 

So, why are you lapping up stuff written by a peddler of nonsense?

 

You do love to bathe in the negative layers sree, why not catch some sun shine.

 

I don't bathe in negative layers. I am pointing to the water which you say is dirty and yet swim in.

[sree]

Loving arguing does not give you license to malign others with a gossippy tabloid approach, does it

 

I am not maligning Leadbeater. My research on him was quite extensive to prove to myself that the allegations against him were unjustified. He was credited with the discovery of Jiddhu Krishnamurti whose teaching made a deep impression on me. To this day, I cannot reconcile Krishnamurti's amazing utterances, which I rank right up there with those of the Buddha, with Leadbeater whose life, as recorded, was that of a cult leader.

 

I wanted desperately to prove that Leadbeater was good because I believed that Krishnamurti was good. I am not happy that Leadbeater was no good. Do you understand my heartbreak, Cat?

Edited June 5, 2013 by sree

[gentlewind]

I was not promoting the Pope and the Dalai Lama. I was stating that they are educated people who can deal with philosophical questions and hold their own in discourses with the best in academia. Therefore, it behooves you to stand back and consider this fact before dismissing them as idiots you can stomp on, intellectually-speaking.

I didn't dismiss either as idiots - go and check(we've been here before!).

I just don't entertain what either has to say. You really should read what is written.

As for being educated, thats nothing to rave about, my brother has a very high IQ and yet with all his intelligence served two years in prison.

As for being able to hold their own in discourses - I should hope they would ! As they have spent their entire lives devouring the propaganda they espouse. I'm very wary of folk who spend their days dressed in fancy costumes ! They seem to think it gives them a 'special' power !!!

As for the religious organizations they head, I have no comment. Organizations are societies of people, and history does not have a good record of what people - which are made up of guys like you and DragonNectar and Stosh and me - are.

Well sree its common knowledge the catholic church - in particular the pope, protects pedophile priests. And to have no comment on this is a little strange, as you were quick enough to have a go at Leadbeater. The Vatican also has investments in a German porno production company as well as investing in the arms trade. Holy practices indeed.

So, why are you lapping up stuff written by a peddler of nonsense?

Leadbeater is far from a peddler of nonsense. I have now finished reading his book and he makes sense. My paranormal experiences back up a lot of what he has written.

 

Peddlars of nonsense - aha the pope is the Olympic Champion of this.

I don't bathe in negative layers. I am pointing to the water which you say is dirty and yet swim in.

You are becoming tiresome sree. You are one of most negative individuals I have come across on the internet. You are bathing, drowning in the dirty waters of your own mind sree.

 

Namaste,

 

gentlewind

[silent thunder]

I am not maligning Leadbeater. My research on him was quite extensive to prove to myself that the allegations against him were unjustified. He was credited with the discovery of Jiddhu Krishnamurti whose teaching made a deep impression on me. To this day, I cannot reconcile Krishnamurti's amazing utterances, which I rank right up there with those of the Buddha, with Leadbeater whose life, as recorded, was that of a cult leader.

 

I wanted desperately to prove that Leadbeater was good because I believed that Krishnamurti was good. I am not happy that Leadbeater was no good. Do you understand my heartbreak, Cat?

 

I know the heartbreak of having a teacher fail bud. It can set you back years due to feeling you've been lied to and all the teachings are thus false because of some humanistic failing in a teacher's behavior.

 

But I've come to a point now, where I have a distinction between the teaching and the vehicle for the teaching.

 

My learning does not come from the teacher, it comes from myself.

I am not reliant on the teacher's morals or actions, only myself.

 

Namaste

[Stosh]

Organizations are abstract entities, they are made of individuals that come and go, only the label persists. The practices of a churches members may exemplify the expected norm or they may diverge from it. That these things are supposed to be self consistent, is also abstract hypothetical expectation.That there is good or evil that can be done by members is also subjective assessment.That people are supposed to be self consistent in their behaviors is also expectation.

 

We all have opinions about right and wrong and inappropriate and that's fine, but when it comes down to proving these things the only possibility lies in mutual consent-congruity of opinion.

 

Re: things like mercy and justice,

One could grind the universe to dust, and never find a grain of them.

[sree]

I know the heartbreak of having a teacher fail bud. It can set you back years due to feeling you've been lied to and all the teachings are thus false because of some humanistic failing in a teacher's behavior.

 

This has nothing to do with Krishnamurti’s behaviour. The heartbreak comes from finding out that he was handpicked by a crackpot (Leadbeater).

 

But I've come to a point now, where I have a distinction between the teaching and the vehicle for the teaching.

 

I make no such distinction. The vehicle for the teaching must live and embody the teaching. A good man cannot do bad things. If a man does bad things, he cannot be good.

 

My learning does not come from the teacher, it comes from myself.

I am not reliant on the teacher's morals or actions, only myself.

 

True.

 

Krishnamurti is not my teacher. His life did not impress me but he did have remarkable things to say about the self.

[sree]

While thinking about this thread (which I enjoy {both the thread and thinking about it}) I realized that if "The Tao of Dying" was a book, then it would be like a book on sex written by a virgin.

 

It would be like a book on celibacy written by a virgin.

[Gypsy]

Let's examine carefully what you have said so that we understand the same things in the same way. I want to become you and see what you see. And let's keep it simple and direct - no leaps of faith, nothing that we cannot immediately verify.

 

We have this reality, this awareness of existence as a human being. I am sitting on the porch at this Dell laptop and the weather is just great. I am perfectly healthy and love being alive. I know this won't last forever. Like a passenger on an airplane, I know this wonderful flight can't go on indefinitely. I need to land it safely before it runs out of fuel or starts to malfunction.

 

How would you deal with this?

 

 

 

Another namaste. Do you also use this greeting like Gentlewind with fingers pointing upwards, palms closed facing each other in front of your chest to indicate we are all one in Brahman?

Totally understandable. What is reality or real? is this on a collective psychological system within beliefs? Are we restricted to believing anything from a young potty trained brain filled with ideas, interpretations, etc. ? Functioning is happening, and is there truly individual's here? Is it true that most questioners already know their answer. Life Happens, Shit happens, All Seeing is Happening reconciling the opposites in the Hegelian Way. And, is it not true that the True Tao cannot be labeled or even thought about. BTW, were on a roll, ThyRock creates the Greatest Novel ever, and fell asleep at the wheel of thought, pretending to act in many many roles of the invisible strawwo-man. Any answer i give you, wouldn't satisfiy these bleeding questions, there's no front cover or back cover to ThyRock's Novel of Life. Each page = a year called Birthday. Every milo second is filled with conditioning-programming, without taking it to seriously. Namaste is One Hand Clapping ♥ Sending Love without conditions. One Planet-One Species!

[Yellowsky]

Overcome the fear of death, and the LUST for life.

and the two become one...and WHO CARES...you could have it either way and your still happy...and your not thinking.

 

thinking is for pussies with worries and fears.

[Yellowsky]

Let's examine carefully what you have said so that we understand the same things in the same way. I want to become you and see what you see. And let's keep it simple and direct - no leaps of faith, nothing that we cannot immediately verify.

 

We have this reality, this awareness of existence as a human being. I am sitting on the porch at this Dell laptop and the weather is just great. I am perfectly healthy and love being alive. I know this won't last forever. Like a passenger on an airplane, I know this wonderful flight can't go on indefinitely. I need to land it safely before it runs out of fuel or starts to malfunction.

 

How would you deal with this?

I wouldn't think about it. It's ALL GOING TO BE ALRIGHT. lol

See, fear of death is largly the desire to live.

You say you Love life. But your talking about attachment. Not love.

So your result is I'M AN AIRPLANE AND I KNOW IT WILL BE OVER SOON.

 

You don't know that.

You THINK you do.

Knowing is different then THINKING.

 

Thinking is negative.

 

Within it your saying I LOVE LIFE.

no you have a fear of death and an attachment to the side called life.

 

So you overcome your attachments, and your aversions, fears.

and you find equinamity.

 

Vedanta states that Brahman alone is Real and the world is unreal. By the term 'real' what is being pointed to is that which is unchanging in all circumstances and independent of Spacetime or the Spacetime manifold. The physical world and mental world hence do not qualify as being "real". The idea of equanimity refers to being in pure awareness. Being in pure awareness requires dissolution of mind. The term mind is also known as Ego or Identity.

 

No mind,

No thinking, No attachment, no fears....

Equinamity, PEACE.....

NOW...yet moving.......

 

 

And really anything can happen.......beyond your judgments of what your thinking mind dictates....

or you can live our your feared expectations you hold in your mind as reality because YOU know BEST.

Pride, ego, fear etc.....

will all drag you down....

fear is an attractive force.

 

How to nutralize fear?

let go.

Let go of the want for survival...and the fear of death.

you say you love life...no....you WANT LIFE.

that is lust.

 

Find love, as in...letting it BE.

 

Like that beatles song, LET IT BE.

and realize...hey you don't know...lol...

 

and it's all FINE AND OK THE WAY IT IS.

and like I said, anytihng can happen in "reality" for that reason.

 

 

But if you want to cling to your thoughts, judgments, expectations AND feelings....that is fine to.

But it is attachment, and aversions........wants...and fears.....

thinking mind...ego...identification.....

 

 

Equinamity...allows just about anything to happen.

that you would never expect....or even CONTROL.

so let go of your want of that too.

and your fear starts to vanish...

if not...

your trying to hard...

 

and TRYING

is not DOING

No try, just do

 

bet you heard that before...

 

Trying does not serve you..

trying is an excuse for NOT DOING.

trying is only thinking, effort, and EGO......

Doing is something else....

 

And that is my answer on the "way to die"...

 

there is no way to die...lol

Death is not a way any more then life is a way.

 

you have fear, you have desire?

youhave the want of control, security, approval, and survival.

That is all you have, the WANT OF IT.

which means you feel alone, empty, and you WANT IT.

and you NOT HAVE IT.

let go of it and have it now.

 

I bet it's real sunny outside for it.

Peace,

IS LETTING GO,

of the want of security, control, approval, and survival.

the want of something is not the having...

let go of the wants,

the desires...

and the fears are nutralized..and no longer attract the negatives....

fears attract negatives....

 

truth is if your afraid of something happening to you....

you want it to happen...

your afraid of it, it will happen to you, YOU KNOW IT, AND YOU FEAR IT AND YOU KNOW IT, AND YOU FEAR IT

lol...

sure..you desire it

 

so it really us up to you,

but if you can notice it,

do I really want this?

and you notice it,

then you have every right to CHOOSE something else for your future...

in the now.

 

get it?

[Mal]

 

It would be like a book on celibacy written by a virgin.

I disagree because a virgin has some experience of an aspect of celibacy, but no experience of sex.

 

How can we "know" something, like death, without any experience of it?

[Yellowsky]

 

How can we "know" something, like death, without any experience of it?

Like your Bruce Lee signature. Through your "feeling" and inution, perception..etc...higher self.

Trust that and tell the mind to shut the hell up, or beat it to death if you have to.

 

Trust your insights, and keep going or growing with that.

 

What is real to you does not have to be real to everyone else.

 

 

One of the things I have noticed over the years about "proof" and peoples want of it is...their fear....

they really desire to prove stuff..they have to...if they dont.....I don't know...it's really something to worry about, isn't it...lol

 

Edited June 6, 2013 by Yellowsky

[三江源]

.

Edited April 4, 2015 by 三江源

[sree]

I disagree because a virgin has some experience of an aspect of celibacy, but no experience of sex.

 

Look, your book-writing analogy works if you equate the Tao of Dying with the Tao of F*cking. But this is not where I am heading with this thread. You were thinking inside the box when you came up with your analogy.

 

Inside your box, there is sex which is part of a way of life that is marred by suffering: poverty, disease, dying and death.

 

The Tao of Dying has to be outside your box (i.e. not part of the way of life you know and are living now).

 

How can we "know" something, like death, without any experience of it?

 

The point is, I don't want anything to do with death which you seem to accept as part and parcel of a life of suffering. If you accept this way of life, then death awaits you.

 

Look, you are talking like a whore who makes a living as a prostitute. And you ask, how can we "know" something like AIDS without any experience of it? I don't want to live like a whore so that I won't have to die like a whore.

 

For some girls In Manila, prostitution is a way of life for an entire community. Grandma is a prostitute, mom is a prostitute, aunts are prostitutes, older sisters and cousins are prostitutes. Dying from sexually-transmitted disease is the fate of every female. Therefore, if the "Tao of Dying" is a book, then it would be like a book on wholesome living written by a healthy virgin girl who doesn't want to die like her grandma, her mother, her aunts, her cousins and her sisters.

 

Do you get it now?

[sree]

Yes, I see. The thing is, the Tower of Pisa is still standing. Most of us are like that building, wether we are aware of it or not. DIstorted from the ideal. How would or could it be surprising that a spiritual sensitive victorian probably gay man was askew in some way in his sexuality. Does it mean that there was no truth in him?

How many of us are not askew in some way? Any?

I havent researched him, Seer. I dont know as much as you do about it.

I do however think that you could have presented what you know in a less 'flinging out sensationalist label" way... loving discussion.. wouldnt it mean loving even handed debate where material is presented fairly.

 

I come away from your response with two judgmental labels: "askew" and "fairly".

 

I don't see Leadbeater's orientation - in every sense of that word - askew in anyway. I accept that everybody is entitled to an attitude and none has to lean my way. And it is not a question of him having no truths. Even Charles Manson has some amazing truths to tell.

 

What does "fairly" mean to you in a world of leaning towers where - to you - everyone is slightly off his rocker?

[三江源]

.

Edited April 4, 2015 by 三江源

[sree]

Organizations are abstract entities, they are made of individuals that come and go, only the label persists.

 

Then, individuals don’t count. They are like bees that populate the hive which is the organization, the abstract entity.

 

The practices of a churches members may exemplify the expected norm or they may diverge from it.

 

Deviants are individuals, within the organization, who cannot measure up to the expected norm.

 

That these things are supposed to be self consistent, is also abstract hypothetical expectation.That there is good or evil that can be done by members is also subjective assessment.

 

Evil done by members is not arbitrarily judged to be so. Evil is a direct cause of the demise of the organization.

 

That people are supposed to be self consistent in their behaviors is also expectation.

 

Such expectation, as in keeping the faith, is the foundation of social relationship in organizations. Dads are supposed to be faithful to moms, moms are supposed to be devoted to kids, and kids are supposed to be filial to parents.

 

We all have opinions about right and wrong and inappropriate and that's fine, but when it comes down to proving these things the only possibility lies in mutual consent-congruity of opinion.

 

It is not individuals’ opinions but the stability of the organization that determines right and wrong.

 

Re: things like mercy and justice, One could grind the universe to dust, and never find a grain of them.

 

Here are two grains:

 

When a cop lets you off on a violation, that’s mercy. If he doesn’t and you pay the fine, that’s justice.

[Stosh]

Sree,

,--Then, individuals don’t count. They are like bees that populate the hive which is the organization, the abstract entity.

To whom , would they not count?

What is the organization of no-individuals?

 

Deviants are individuals, within the organization, who cannot measure up to the expected norm.

Basically true in conventional terminology. (maybe they dont want to, or exempt themselves)

 

Evil done by members is not arbitrarily judged to be so. Evil is a direct cause of the demise of the organization.

Evil is an arbitrary term , if I consider something OK , its not evil to me.

You need somebody to judge a thing evil ,

(and though many people are ready to point fingers , they dont usually point them at themselves..likewise,

Society creates a collective morality , and deems some individuals behaviors as evil,..

 

its like when Nixon said 'its not illegal when its done by the president'.)

An organization can fail because of decisions-judgements it deems fine (not evil) ,

like pooping in their own source of drinking water.

 

Such expectation, as in keeping the faith, is the foundation of social relationship in organizations. Dads are supposed to be faithful to moms, moms are supposed to be devoted to kids, and kids are supposed to be filial to parents.

Well they often arent ,and it depends on the judgement of a given society or individual whether the supposition is "right" to have.

For instance ,Kids have been raised by relatives , communes , foster parents , to be independent Spartan thieves, loyal slaves and Hitler youth. (loyalty was expected to go to the state or party rather than family)

And some places are just fine with concubines.

 

It is not individuals’ opinions but the stability of the organization that determines right and wrong.

Collectively Individuals are the organization , and the collective will determines the collective 'right and wrong'

usually codified into law, (to impose and enforce it).

But each individual, has and promotes, what they have concluded is right or wrong,,

this may be in accord with the collective view, or it may not.

 

When a cop lets you off on a violation, that’s mercy. If he doesn’t and you pay the fine, that’s justice.

 

 

Justice depends on 'to whom a thing happens' and it again is based on subjective expectations

 

Try this out for a hardassed opinion',,,

 

Mercy is a burden reshouldered

 

!!

[gentlewind]

Starting my second read of the CW Leadbeater book 'The Life After Death'. Its only 91 pages but is packed with excellent information, and provides more food for thought.

 

Earlier in this thread I brought up the selfishness of grief, and was pleased to read that the author also agrees with this. My thoughts behind grieving being selfish is that it stops the soul who has left his/her body from returning Home. The stronger the guilt the longer the newly transitioned soul has to 'hang' around. This inner knowing has been with me for many years, so its nice to read that I'm far from alone. I know Vaina agrees with this, and it is also Finnish Folkore ? Please confirm this for me Vaina, not sure if my memory has got that correct.

 

When my Dad died my eldest brother went deep into grieving, became unreachable. It was impossible to talk with my brother. As for me, I had an initial sadness, but it passed within 20 minutes of Dad discarding his hire vehicle ! The next moment was just before we were about to carry the coffin into the service, again it was brief and this time over in 2 minutes or so. I had told my Dad when were in the ambulance going to A&E that it was his time to return Home, and that he should go to the Light. At 5pm he left his body, this was 6 hours after my telling him it was his time. It was a peaceful transition.

 

I have my Dad in a number of dreams, and he was dressed very smart - as he was when occupying the physical vehicle called the body ! He must shake his head at my tracksuit bottoms and t shirt ! Also seen my Mum on a number of occasions, and she had legs ! She had both legs amputated in her later years.

 

I've seen my Gran when she visited me a few months after her departure, she filled the bedroom full with a glorious Light; and her smile was beautiful. I was enveloped in a warm Love.

 

My encounters with departed souls has been a regular feature of my life. Oh, and my wife communicates with those who've returned Home.

 

Blessing All. Hope you are all well.

 

Namaste,

 

gentlewind

[Mal]

 

 

Do you get it now?

I think I can see your perspective, although you do not know what I am thinking btw

 

But the girl will die, perhaps if she lives her life differently. It will be from different causes than her parents / siblings. But life starts and life ends, Duality it's like that

so all we can really do is look after living while alive and death while dead.

[sree]

Which is weird to think about, because I don't think any actually cares to do so... You do realize that you can take that money and pay a stripper to stroke your ego for you in ways we never could... Just saying. I don't quite understand the notion of wanting to get off by getting off on other people... Seems ironic and silly. But if it makes you smile, OK.

 

Money is meant for paying my way in living this life. I can’t get through one day without money. This is our way of life. We need money to keep our bodies fed, clothed and sheltered. Money defines my self-worth in society. It doesn’t make me smile to point this out to you. It makes me sad because you are not cognizant of reality. Monks are not cognizant of reality. The only way to make monks cognizant of reality and keep them honest is not to feed them. This is why it is important for people, who are into spirituality, to be cognizant of reality. Earn your keep and put your money where your mouth is.

 

I think each of us should pay a fee for using this forum. This will keep out the monks and other freeloaders.

[zerostao]

the title of this forum is TheTao Bums, just sayin'

money aint my reality and no one feeds me

sounds like you have a serious dependency problem in regards to money.

and dependency is dependency. iknow junkies who cant get by one day without their fix either

it is exactly the same thing, i never judge, but most recognize how pathetic some junkies have let themself become

of course you are sad

and despite the many many laughs out loud i have had while just briefly looking at this thread

you still wear your sadness on your sleeve

i may be a bum but i aint sad

i think you have been sold a false bill of goods

 

edit> lets look at the title of this thread the Tao of Dying

topic is good and there have been some imo very good posts and ideas expressed by yourself and some others. and it is an ongoing investigation rather than professing, so many changes of stances here and there for it to be professing. and with the investigating it is understandable(changes of stance) as so many posts made and ideas expressed. Tao has key concepts of Wu Wei and Zi Ran and altho i havnt read the entire thread, i know that these must have been introduced already. the reason i spoke to the money thing is that is where you are very consistent with your position. i dont reckon it really costs all that much to die, as it doesnt cost all that much to live. for me energy is more useful and interesting than money. so many do go in for this money money more money idea, it is a very common and generic idea and to be honest quite boring. an example obvious to me, is if someone bought a lottery ticket for me and i won sth like 590 million $. for me that would be the worse case scenario of all realities. it would not be welcome at all. and this is my view, someone who is not dependent on money, so if someone with the dependency gets flooded like that. it probably wont turn out good for them either. Tao is like water some say, a little is great, too much drowns you. it is like giving a crack head 250 ki's , will this enhance his life or kill him?

 

Edited June 7, 2013 by zerostao

[gentlewind]

Money is meant for paying my way in living this life. I can’t get through one day without money. This is our way of life. We need money to keep our bodies fed, clothed and sheltered. Money defines my self-worth in society. It doesn’t make me smile to point this out to you. It makes me sad because you are not cognizant of reality. Monks are not cognizant of reality. The only way to make monks cognizant of reality and keep them honest is not to feed them. This is why it is important for people, who are into spirituality, to be cognizant of reality. Earn your keep and put your money where your mouth is.

 

I think each of us should pay a fee for using this forum. This will keep out the monks and other freeloaders.

Money benefits the very few - and yet it doesn't. Also the negative impact of corporate greed upon our planet is plain to see.

Money is not 'our' way of life - it is a way of death. Its another obstacle to being free.

 

As I have said previously we are uneducated laboratory rats who accept what is presented to us without questioning it, well, not everyone; their are individuals who are questioning 'our' way of life, and doing something about it.

 

Their are folk who live their lives without being dependent upon money.

 

Money has never bothered me, it did my brother who spent two years in prison because of his dependency upon money.

 

Money defines your self worth in this construct called society sree, well, good for you ! You are well immersed in the conditioning the System has downloaded into you.

 

Your statement that this forum should have a fee would alienate those who are not able to afford it. What a caring heart.

 

Freeloaders - you don't like ! Surprise - surprise !!! Money orientated folk rarely do because they want everyone to be a part of their mindset and share in the collective suffering.

 

Money - A Way of death. Evidence - take a look around.

Game - set and match.

 

In conclusion:-

 

All men were made brothers.

The earth is the mother of all people, and all people should have equal rights upon it.

You might as well expect the rivers to run backward as that any man who was born free should be contented when penned up and denied liberty to go where he pleases.

It does not require many words to speak the truth. - Chief Joseph (1840-1904) Nez Pierce

 

Namaste,

 

gentlewind

Edited June 7, 2013 by gentlewind

[xor]

Earlier in this thread I brought up the selfishness of grief, and was pleased to read that the author also agrees with this. My thoughts behind grieving being selfish is that it stops the soul who has left his/her body from returning Home. The stronger the guilt the longer the newly transitioned soul has to 'hang' around. This inner knowing has been with me for many years, so its nice to read that I'm far from alone. I know Vaina agrees with this, and it is also Finnish Folkore ? Please confirm this for me Vaina, not sure if my memory has got that correct.

 

One of the Finnish old folk wisdoms is to not cry for the dead. There are many interpretations as to what this means, because there are not many people wise in the "old ways" around anymore. Folklorists say that the reason for this rule was that the dead still exist, not in their bodies but in Tuonela(the Finnish name for the after death place).

 

When we experienced the "shared NDE" as energetic movements and bliss surrounding the room and following us for our trip home the feeling was one of holiness. All sorrow was erased from me. For me that moment gave me a glimpse of true reality, maybe you could say it was a holy moment. To grieve after having felt the holiness and even happiness of the departed felt like sacrilige.

 

Edited June 7, 2013 by Guest

[hydrogen]

I think each of us should pay a fee for using this forum. This will keep out the monks and other freeloaders.

 

Good idea. I just tried to donate money to this forum. It only take bitcoins. I don't konw about bitcoins. I was ripped off by Paypal. I don't use web money anymore.