grammar in 民莫之令而自均 from DDJ32?

[Harmonious Emptiness]

In Chapter 32 of the DDJ, I see that most Chinese translators translate the following as "people do not direct.." rather than "people are not directed..". Is there any grammatical rule that dictates this? It seems to me to make more sense as:

 

民莫之令而自均。

The people are not given directives yet treat each other as equals

 

(lit. "people not directed/directing, yet, self equal")

 

 

for example, Chan has "Heaven and earth unite to drip sweet dew. Without the command of men, it drips evenly over all."

 

and Cleary has "Heaven and earth combine, thus showering sweet dew. No humans command it; it is even by nature."

[lienshan]

The sentence is interrogative in the Guodian version: 民莫之命而自均焉

 

民 the people

莫之 not a single / no one

命 a command

而 similar to / like / and

自 self- (was always followed by a verb)

均 to be fair

焉 an interrogative-how, why, when, etc.

 

I read 自均 as meaning self justice

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Lienshan, you're talking about the Mawangdui B text.

 

both Guodian texts have:

民莫之命而自均安

 

For some reason 安, peaceful, also means how and why according to http://www.internationalscientific.org, so I guess this was why it was changed to 焉.

 

Could be possible that these two character mean "this is how" rather than "how?"

 

 

Nonetheless, how about "people do not command" versus "people are not commanded?" Is there a grammatical rule that disallows either of these?

 

Thanks

Edited April 22, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[lienshan]

How is the people and not a single command similar to self justice?

 

The alternative way of treating two connected nouns is nonsense because a people cannot command:

 

How is not a single command of the people similar to self justice?

[ChiDragon]

Is there any grammatical rule that dictates this? It seems to me to make more sense as:

 

民莫之令而自均。

The people are not given directives yet treat each other as equals

 

for example, Chan has "Heaven and earth unite to drip sweet dew. Without the command of men, it drips evenly over all."

 

and Cleary has "Heaven and earth combine, thus showering sweet dew. No humans command it; it is even by nature."

 

ME...You are very close. It is hard to say that was grammatical rule in classic but logic.

 

 

Classic: 民莫之令而自均。

Temporal: 人們不須指使它而自然均勻。

English: The people do not need to be given instructions; but they are naturally equal.

 

令: command(命令); instruction(指使) , to make it(使它) happen.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

How is the people and not a single command similar to self justice?

 

The alternative way of treating two connected nouns is nonsense because a people cannot command:

 

How is not a single command of the people similar to self justice?

May I suggest that, when mixing the order of thoughts, to use commas? This will aid, quite a bit, in read-ablity, and is especially useful when translating Chinese, which has different sentence structure than English (yes these two sentences are a bit of an example of doing this).

 

So you mean: "How are the people, and not a single command, similar to self justice," right? Sounds like a very tricky riddle. I guess when the interrogative is taken out, the answer appears.

 

 

ME...You are very close. It is hard to say that was grammatical rule in classic but logic.

 

 

Classic: 民莫之令而自均。

Temporal: 人們不須指使它而自然均勻。

English: The people do not need to be given instructions; but they are naturally equal.

 

令: command(命令); instruction(指使) , to make it(使它) happen.

 

Yes, it was logic that brought me to read it this way too, because 而 generally means "however" so it would make most sense out of all the words as "people are not commanded, and yet... equal." Taking this logic a bit further to show "and yet treat each other as equals."

 

Thanks for your help CD.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[lienshan]

So you mean: "How are the people, and not a single command, similar to self justice," right?

Sounds like a very tricky riddle. I guess when the interrogative is taken out, the answer appears.

 

Ancient warring states philosophy was expressed like math:

 

the people + not a single command = self justice

 

天地相合也 以輸甘露

民莫之命而自均焉

 

Heaven and earth mutual united do contribute sweet dew.

Isn't the people and not a single command then self justice?

 

I live in a country where our beloved Queen uses not a single command and that works fine.

US is ruled by a commanding leader ........... the text continues with 始制有名 名亦既有夫

 

The first established has a name.

The accumulation of names already has the Man ... etc.

 

Put into my own words:

The accumulation of names = the people ( inclussive the leader)

The first established = the leader = the Man ( 夫 respectful term for a man)

The leader was still in Laozi's days the Son of Heaven, so 夫 was a lese majesty.

Edited April 23, 2013 by lienshan

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Ancient warring states philosophy was expressed like math:

 

the people + not a single command = self justice

 

天地相合也 以輸甘露

民莫之命而自均焉

 

Heaven and earth mutual united do contribute sweet dew.

Isn't the people and not a single command then self justice?

I'm wondering now if 自均 might have meant essentially the same as zi ran, since zi ran basically means "as the self" and 自均 appears as "self-equal."

 

I suppose all connotations amount to essentially the same idea, which is that all things, from the relation between heaven and earth, to the relation between people, will be harmonious when the powerful keep to The Way and do not administer undue interference.

[dawei]

The problem with the text is as Hendricks points out: That line 5-12 may be a separate meaning/section.

 

So there are two approaches:

1. Refer to line 5 to understand line 6

2. Refer to all the previous lines to understand line 6

 

I think that one can resolve both options the same way; Look at line 4 usage of Zi.

 

I'll comment on the Guodian line: 民莫之命而自均安

 

"This is not the people's fate [to control this] but the self-equalizing nature of things"

[ChiDragon]

I'm wondering now if 自均 might have meant essentially the same as zi ran, since zi ran basically means "as the self" and 自均 appears as "self-equal."

 

Just take one step back, from "self equal", you will end up "naturally equal".

 

自均 = 自然均勻

[dynamictao]

This is what I have in "TTC: An UltimateTranslation"

 

When a lord obeys it, all things will settle by themselves,

Heaven and earth will harmonize to rain sweet dew, and

The people, under no mandate, will self-balance.

[ChiDragon]

32

道 常 無 名 。
Tao is always nameless.

樸 雖 小 天 下 莫 能 臣 也 。
It's simple, even though small, no one in the world can subdues it.

侯 王 若 能 守 之 ，
If nobles could guard it,

萬 物 將 自 賓 。
Then, all things would be naturally follow it.

天 地 相 合 以 降 甘 露 ，
Heaven and earth are mutually united to rain sweet dew.

民 莫 之 令 而 自 均 。
People do not need governing laws because they are in a natural state of balance already.

Edited May 19, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

This is what I have in "TTC: An UltimateTranslation"

 

When a lord obeys it, all things will settle by themselves,

Heaven and earth will harmonize to rain sweet dew, and

The people, under no mandate, will self-balance.

 

Ah, yes, that makes sense. I translated it as

 

民莫之令而自均。

The people are not given directives yet treat each other as equals

 

because of the apparent political context of the chapter, but I like how this is also implied by "self-balance," given the existing political context, while including the more personal meaning of "when things are left alone, the people will be internally balanced."

 

Thanks for your response!

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

民 莫 之 令 而 自 均 。

People do not need governing laws because they are in a natural state of balance already.

 

Makes sense as well.

 

Merci bien!