An Altar for Sree

[rene]

This thread stems off of the Home Taoist Altar thread found here:

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/28018-home-taoist-altar/

 

In that thread, in case you've not been following, newTaoist requested information about having a Taoist altar at home.

 

Sree, a delightful poster, preferred to keep the conversation on something else so I thought maybe we can all help sree in this thread with his/her needs, i.e., to create an Altar that would be suitable for what s/he calls "Philosophical Taoists" to pray (or whatever) to. (-:

 

Here are some of sree's posts, which shines a light on his/her perspective, and will help us help sree in creating an appropriate altar. The numbers are the post numbers in the above thread for reference and to make sure context wasn't lost...

 

 

111 I am a philosophical Daoist who intend to take philosophical Daoism to the level of religion without the gods

 

114 Since you find nothing wrong with that and I just love your Taoist philosophy which matches mine, why won't you join in worship with me at our very own Taoist altar? You can help me fashion one and think of some rites that could kick our philosophy up a notch to the religious level. Fact is, you are already doing it just as many of us philosophical Daoists here in America are doing it in our respective informal ways. Ours doesn't have to be an "ism". Just because traditional religions are not set up right in our eyes doesn't mean religion cannot be set up right at all.

 

116 Philosophical Daoism is generally known as Daoist philosophy derived from direct reading of widely-accepted western translations of the Tao Te Ching. Private blogs do not qualify as authoritative source of philosophical Daoism. Also, your term "classical Taoism" is misleading and have no connection to the classical Chinese texts.

 

119 If by religious Taoism you mean Chinese religious Taoism, your doubt has validity. But don't forget, not all religions are Chinese. And not all forms of Taoism are derived in China. As such, the western understanding of religious Taoism cannot be dismissed.

 

121 There is only Philosophical Daoism of the west. The Chinese are a practical people. They have no time for contemplation on the Tao. Their Taoism is mainly religious for the asking of help from gods.

 

Any ideas or suggestions for sree for an altar? I'm sure any input you'd care to make wont offend him/her; sree seems to be congenial enough about not staying on topic.

 

*****

 

Here ya go, sree! Thread is yours. Hope this gets you started in finding what you seek. (-:

 

warm regards

Edited April 22, 2013 by rene

[Thunder_Gooch]

This is the best Altar for a Taoist:

 

 

 

 

 

[zerostao]

mpg, not sure if sree does any internal cultivation per chi kung or meditation?

would be curious to know.

for me a nature altar can be found out in nature,

yesterday i spent my time out in the fair sunshine in the blugrass region

all these flowers and trees in bloom , it was glorious, and i didnt think of philosophy much.

outdoors is a great cathedral with a high ceiling

the choir of song birds soothed my soul

the playful clouds just there for aesthetics

but if i had to be confined indoors and wanted to construct an altar that reflected philosophy of nature

i would go with wordsworth, the high priest of briitish nature poetry, and place prelude on the mantle

i would go with goethe, another romantic(nature) poet, and place a copy of faust (kaufman tr) there for balance

becoz what goethe saw in the nature of nature and he fully embraced,

when wordswoth saw that same nature it terrified him.

both of them had a direct experience with the spirit of nature

and i know sree isnt big on spirits, but sometimes it takes the experience of such things to open one to the possibilities,,,,

and i would add van gogh , maybe wheatfield with crows or whatever the name is

or maybe the self portrait with the swirls of turbulence that surrounded van gogh

and how this shows that van gogh viewed nature perhaps very subjectively to be able to see unseen forces

[sree]

Van Gogh cut off his own ear and shot himself. What's the matter with you? This is worse than red candles, cow head and horse face.

 

Try again.

[三江源]

altar music

 

[zerostao]

Van Gogh cut off his own ear and shot himself. What's the matter with you? This is worse than red candles, cow head and horse face.

 

Try again.

nope van gogh stays. he ascended to the very top of the art world.

and he could look deep into nature and see things no one else could

and expressed it thru his art.

if you look for someone who is flawless, you will never find them.

[sree]

Some of his art was done in a mental asylum in France. Only a mad man would pay $100 million for his artwork.

Are we all crazy? Which is worse form of Taoism? Western madness or Chinese superstition?

[rene]

Which is worse form of Taoism? Western madness or Chinese superstition?

 

Maybe a better question is, what do you seek?

 

I understand the wanting to incorporate something physical like altars into a spiritual path like philosophical taoism. To me, that wanting reflects the natural perception that one can be empty without the other... like one half of the whole.

 

One way to do this is what you're attempting: to create specific ritual/altar/rites that mirror your spiritual thought.

 

Another way to do this is to recognize that the physical is already within the spiritual, that there is no boundary between inner and outer, and that all of life contains both the form and formlessness. Not either/or. Not one or the other. Both at the same time.

 

After understanding this, the universe becomes your 'altar' and joy abounds. Because of this, you can enjoy and celebrate with any tradition for at the core of all is the same unboundaried tao. Or so it seems to me. (-:

 

warm regards

[zerostao]

rene that is a very good post

you cut right to the chase

i was going to slow play on this thread

but you just went ahead and said it

when van gogh looked deep into nature he found himself in reflection

the subjective and the objective merged into unity

it would be good if sree does come up with an altar

and hopefully there he can gain appreciation of the subtle and sublime

and transform into a reflective person who looks beyond the surface(seen) of anything

and into its depths(unseen)

[rene]

zerostao, hi, kind words, thanks!

trying to balance on only one foot

illusion or reality

spiritual or physical

surface or sublime

might seem like progress

but either foot is still only half of the whole

 

About 6 years ago, a group of philosophical taoists got together (online and irl) to try and do exactly what sree (and maybe newTaoist) and others have in mind: to move their practice and philosophy into more of a tangible thing. There was plenty of initial interest and agreement... but certain organizational points (like how to ordain 'priests') left them unable to proceed after a couple years into the project. As far as I know it's been pretty quiet for a while now, but it's rather interesting to read their ideas, and how they tried to move from the philosophical towards the religious: http://www.reformtaoism.org/

 

warm regards

 

 

[Stosh]

If a person wanted to focus thier mind- energies on something- then the subject might reasonably be something which one naturally finds 'deep'. It could be a vase of dark water or a red rose in lucite...etc but I doubt it would be a breadbox. Though my opinions dont really go that way , I figure I would consider a geometric shape first as a starting point , and build on it over time with things of significance ( like a Christmas tree).

 

 

Nobody said anything at reform T's because they are all trying to be pu -like a block of wood

or not trying to be confrontational (while still holding on to all their biases)

Maybe thats an angle on ph taoism but it seemed like pulling teeth instead

IMO

I thought Van Gogh was basically nuts and has an arsonist motif to many of his paintings

 

On altars , I think of Queequeg , from Melville , his idol really only held significance when he was using it for his worship , so if someone wanted to worship something -the objects could be anything at all.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Stosh

[sree]

Ok, I ordain you - rene, zero and stosh - as high priests in the name of the father, son and holy ghost. Let's get on with it and not dither over technicalities like the other group.

 

I really think we need to understand what it means to worship. We've got to treat it like sex, as Taomeow said. It's empirical and experienced at the physical level.

 

Identitfy the rites and they will define the altar. Any ideas?

 

(zero needs to drop the madness element to avoid inclusion of rituals like virgin sacrifice and drinking of human blood.)

[Stosh]

You kinda need to decide whether you are worshiping something ..apart from yourself .. like a god , or whether you are investigating your inner self as in meditation dont you?

I like that statue of Kali I keep seeing , the meaning goes something like this I read

"Dont worry a way will be found through it with wisdom and dispassion"

If it was for me I think a nice dark chunk of opal and a bonsai would go nice (yeah I know its japanese and australian and hindu stuff- so what, I say)

Since my stuff is about experience and understanding Im not aiming at the worship of a god thing really.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Stosh

[ChiDragon]

It seems to me that newTaoist is looking forward to set up an altar for the Taoist religion.

It seems to me that sree wants to have an altar sat up first; then looking forward to worship something.

Edited April 22, 2013 by ChiDragon

[rene]

Ok, I ordain you - rene, zero and stosh - as high priests in the name of the father, son and holy ghost.

 

whooo hooo! I get to be the ghost. (-:

 

Stosh is right... what do you mean by 'worship' and what is it that you are 'worshiping' ?

 

 

warm regards

[ChiDragon]

This was my question for the precious thread to begin with. Since it was a myth to me, so I did not follow up on it.

Stosh is right... what do you mean by 'worship' and what is it that you are 'worshiping' ?

Edited April 22, 2013 by ChiDragon

[rene]

This was my question for the precious thread to begin with. Since it was a myth to me, so I did not follow up on it.

 

 

CD yeah well I have a question for you. Why do you reinforce the idea that Tao is something separate to be found?

[ChiDragon]

CD yeah well I have a question for you. Why do you reinforce the idea that Tao is something separate to be found?

 

Would you please put this into simple English....???

[三江源]

 

Would you please put this into simple English....???

epic fail, chidragon.

[rene]

Which word do you not understand?

 

Your posts reinforce the idea that Tao is something separate, that needs to be found. Here's an example.

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/27965-help-me-understand/page-3#entry424414

 

informer24 said he was looking for tao. you said you'd help him find it.

 

Do you, ChiDragon, think Tao is something that needs looking for?

 

[sree]

It seems to me that newTaoist is looking forward to set up an altar for the Taoist religion.

 

It seems to me that sree wants to have an altar sat up first; then looking forward to worship something.

 

I sensed newTaoist recoiling from the Taoist altar when it was described to him by others. His impulse was primal fear. I find it scary too because it was set up in a culture of fear like those of other religions.

 

As a Philosophical Daoist, I want to worship something. I need to worship something. It's a powerful calling that comes through whenever I read the Tao Te Ching. The Chinese version, that is. It never fail to amaze me how on earth those guys, whoever those Chinamen were, could come up with such brilliant insights. How about worshipping human wisdom for starters?

 

One rite for doing that at the empirical level like sex would be a toast to this human quality. A glass of wine would be good. Any Daoist priest here against alcohol?

Edited April 22, 2013 by sree

[Stosh]

Is alcohol worshiping wisdom or hedonism?

[Stosh]

I sensed newTaoist recoiling from the Taoist altar when it was described to him by others. His impulse was primal fear. I find it scary too because it was set up in a culture of fear like those of other religions. As a Philosophical Daoist, I want to worship something. I need to worship something. It's a powerful calling that comes through whenever I read the Tao Te Ching. The Chinese version, that is. It never fail to amaze me how on earth those guys, whoever those Chinamen were, could come up with such brilliant insights. How about worshipping human wisdom for starters? One rite for doing that at the empirical level like sex would be a toast to this human quality. A glass of wine would be good. Any Daoist priest here against alcohol?

maybe newtaoist was rebelling against doing something hollow rather than sincere.

[sree]

Is alcohol worshiping wisdom or hedonism?

 

A glass of wine is hedonism? Let's examine this.

 

Let's say we gather for worship once a week. But then, it could become a daily affair. A glass a day is hedonism?

[sree]

maybe newtaoist was rebelling against doing something hollow rather than sincere.

 

Why hollow? You don't think Flowing Hands is sincere? He committed his whole life to Taoism.