An Altar for Sree

[sree]

Come on, zero. You can't be united with your surroundings. It's a sentiment with no practical value.

[shanlung]

I think it needs looking for. Anyone who doesn't think it needs looking for either knows there is no such thing or has found it.

 

More likely the more you look for that, the more you are not going to find it.

And is the need to look for that meaningful when you are part of it around you and within you.

 

Taoistic Idiot

[sree]

More likely the more you look for that, the more you are not going to find it.

 

Then you look harder till you find it.

 

And is the need to look for that meaningful when you are part of it around you and within you.

 

I think it is meaningful especially if one has nothing better to do. Anyway, we are looking into a Taoist altar for philosophical Daoists of the west for the purpose of worship. The traditional Chinese Taoist altars are meant for relating with deities and ancestral spirits.

 

Do you have any ideas for our consideration?

[zerostao]

Come on, zero. You can't be united with your surroundings. It's a sentiment with no practical value.

i call it balance

edit> maybe add a set of scales to the altar

Edited April 23, 2013 by zerostao

[zerostao]

stosh, i agree about the emptiness and the manifest. this philosophy work that you like is called the Tao Te ching.

so in your view why is Te even mentioned ?

[shanlung]

Then you look harder till you find it.

 

 

I think it is meaningful especially if one has nothing better to do. Anyway, we are looking into a Taoist altar for philosophical Daoists of the west for the purpose of worship. The traditional Chinese Taoist altars are meant for relating with deities and ancestral spirits.

 

Do you have any ideas for our consideration?

 

Well, I truly have nothing better to do and was/will be continuing my search for the Tao.

I reported back a few times here that my search was futile, and even if I found the Tao, I was not sure how the Tao looks like to be able to recognise and report that I found it.

 

Currently I am on another of such search for the Tao as that grey ox discharged me in Lumut to let me change to an ox that can go on water landing me on the island of Pangkor where dozens of hornbills flew about.

 

There were also 2 Taoist temples, or rather, a Taoist shrine and a bigger Taoist temple.

I will be uploading photos of the altars there that folks here be amused.

 

The gateway of the Taoist shrine had a human size Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck on the other side of gateway up the shrine. Shortly after that, a topless mermaid statue will greet you.

 

And in the bigger Taoist temple, you think you entered a film set of Hongkong martial arts movie. Also with two funky cartoon characters greeting you at the entrance.

 

Followed by multiples of altars in the temple, around the temple and alongside of the temple.

 

Who are we to say what is right or wrong? If little kids think Santa came into the chimney to hand out presents , it will be a very mean person to insist to the kids the presents were bought in AToyRus shop. Why dispel the magic of their dreams? Is truth all that important? Will the kids grow up and die believing in Santa because they were not told? When we all know that in time, the kids will know without having to tell them.

 

Do we go tut tut with our nose in air proud of our superiority kids believing in Santa and over Taoist monks of temples that cater to folks with religious rites for those that want to believe that way?

 

Fine if you think pride is essential for one to know the Tao. Then you get the Tao that you deserve to get.

 

Maybe the Tao can only be found if we can laugh and can joke about it.

Those looking seriously for Tao, or even for the altar of Tao, might have better luck if they do that with a dose of humour.

Even if Tao not found, laughter cannot be very wrong either.

 

Idiot on the Path

[rene]

heheh

good morning dragon

nice to see you again.

 

safe journeys (-:

[sree]

Well, I truly have nothing better to do and was/will be continuing my search for the Tao.

I reported back a few times here that my search was futile, and even if I found the Tao, I was not sure how the Tao looks like to be able to recognise and report that I found it.

 

You sound defeated...like a guy badly burnt by his one-sided love for a woman who does not reciprocate. In some cases, the beloved woman is not aware of her admirer's affection. But the Tao knows, and it treats devoted Daoists like straw dogs meant for the fires of Daoist Hell.

 

Who are we to say what is right or wrong? If little kids think Santa came into the chimney to hand out presents , it will be a very mean person to insist to the kids the presents were bought in AToyRus shop. Why dispel the magic of their dreams? Is truth all that important? Will the kids grow up and die believing in Santa because they were not told? When we all know that in time, the kids will know without having to tell them.

 

Do we go tut tut with our nose in air proud of our superiority kids believing in Santa and over Taoist monks of temples that cater to folks with religious rites for those that want to believe that way?

 

What makes you think that the kids will grow up and know better in time and give up on their magical dreams? Small kids grow into big kids clinging to the same dream magic Santa morphed into the eternal Tao. And the Daoist monks, like our deceitful parents, are our enablers now. We are still sucking that ridiculous pacifier.

 

Fine if you think pride is essential for one to know the Tao. Then you get the Tao that you deserve to get.

 

Maybe the Tao can only be found if we can laugh and can joke about it.

Those looking seriously for Tao, or even for the altar of Tao, might have better luck if they do that with a dose of humour.

Even if Tao not found, laughter cannot be very wrong either.

 

I don't think anyone in this forum will laugh if you were to pull out his or her pacifier. Things will get ugly very quickly. This is why we've got to built the altar and go on being suckers. But our philosophical daoist altar is to be different from the traditional Chinese Taoist altar. No deities.

[sree]

heheh

good morning dragon

nice to see you again.

 

safe journeys (-:

 

rene, stosh explained your containers.

 

People who can see outside of containers were never inside; and those inside containers can never see the outside.

 

I am watching you just as you are watching me. Which one is on the outside looking in?

[dawei]

Sree,

 

I think by 'containers', Rene means 'compartmentalizing'; breaking apart the Grand Unity into 'this' and 'that'. If there is no separation then what is one really trying to find? Like when someone says "I want to find myself"; it seems that it is just a mental obstacle for them, not really an external discovery.

 

This all being said, you said you felt compelled to worship, even if it was the wisdom. SO maybe your alter and what you want to do is really to pay respect and honor that part of humanity which reveals such things like the unknowable or beyond (I am saying in such a way as I think you are thinking, this is not my thinking).

 

So far, I see you as focusing on an alter for the wonderment of it all; not spirits or deity aspect.

[rene]

Post #29 in this thread explains about 'containers'; post #102 in the Home Taoist Alter thread explains about how they might cause harm.

 

My objection about using "looking for tao" as a teaching method is that not only does it start with an invalid premise (that tao is separate), it leaves the door wide open for those who prey on they who seek.

 

warm regards

[dawei]

After reading four pages quickly, I missed the one word in your 29th post.

 

To view Dao as separate or out there is to contain it; to limit it.

 

Or if one wants to put it in a container (aka. alter) for worship or reflection, it is contained (limited) in this way too. Although I don't think one has to think of it as contained just because they built an object of reflect for it. It could still be the limitless in the mind and/or heart... but your point would be: what's the point of reducing what is limitless down to an object then; you can simply recognize it for what it is without the need of an object. We can let the alter be the limitlessness it already is.

 

This was just an analogy; I don't know that people were talking of worshipping Dao... Or maybe I should say I hope not.

[shanlung]

heheh

good morning dragon

nice to see you again.

 

safe journeys (-:

 

 

First the hornbills

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[shanlung]

The taoist shrine

 

 

 

 

[shanlung]

Taoist temple

 

Entrance archway

 

 

funky cartoon

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And Sree,

 

Go enjoy your pacifier.

Let me not deprive you of what you need.

 

Idiotic Taoist

[newTaoist]

Taoist temple

 

Entrance archway

 

 

funky cartoon

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And Sree,

 

Go enjoy your pacifier.

Let me not deprive you of what you need.

 

Idiotic Taoist

Great pictures, thanks for sharing them.

[rene]

To view Dao as separate or out there is to contain it; to limit it.

 

Or if one wants to put it in a container (aka. alter) for worship or reflection, it is contained (limited) in this way too. Although I don't think one has to think of it as contained just because they built an object of reflect for it. It could still be the limitless in the mind and/or heart... but your point would be: what's the point of reducing what is limitless down to an object then; you can simply recognize it for what it is without the need of an object. We can let the alter be the limitlessness it already is.

 

Yes, an altar can reflect the limitlessness it already is, and if the limitlessness is already understood then YAY! eh?

 

But if it is not understood - then there might be re-inforcement of the worship aspect, or the idea that one needs more... for example, paying a doctrine for a ritual to "receive the dao"... or purchasing books/training to 'find the dao' - you get the drift.

 

My points aren't really about altars... rather what a natural progression on a path might be.

 

warm regards

[sree]

Sree,

 

I think by 'containers', Rene means 'compartmentalizing'; breaking apart the Grand Unity into 'this' and 'that'. If there is no separation then what is one really trying to find? Like when someone says "I want to find myself"; it seems that it is just a mental obstacle for them, not really an external discovery.

 

This all being said, you said you felt compelled to worship, even if it was the wisdom. SO maybe your alter and what you want to do is really to pay respect and honor that part of humanity which reveals such things like the unknowable or beyond (I am saying in such a way as I think you are thinking, this is not my thinking).

 

So far, I see you as focusing on an alter for the wonderment of it all; not spirits or deity aspect.

 

Thanks for the clarification on the "containers". Having checked rene's post #29 and #102, I think she meant containing that which cannot be contained.

 

First of all, I don't fancy the Chinese Taoist altar or Chinese Taoist temple. As I said elsewhere, each of us read the Tao Te Ching and come away with his or her own stuff. What about you? Are you into deities and or into any form of Taoist religious devotional practice at all?

 

Rene, to my mind, grabs the spiritual stuff and gets high on it the way charismatic Christians relate with the Lord. It's like Taoist shamanism in a way that perhaps Flowing hands can relate with. I lived for a while in New York City and did hang out with very intelligent, successful women with their yoga and auras. It was all very nice because it gave reassurance in city that can be tough even for the talented.

 

I don't get high on the Tao Te Ching. On the contrary, it makes me feel sad for all of us.

[zerostao]

"on a path" which we are all on our own unique path. sree is on a path and would like an altar, its good idea.

even if i am initiated into a clan, we have no strict doctrine or dogma. we could have an altar or not, presently i dont have.

i am thinking that after those pics by mountain dragon with fancy bird, newtaoist may want a taoist temple now to surround his altar hahaha

Tao cannot be contained and it has no opposite,

sometimes(often?) indifference seems to be an ideal.

[newTaoist]

LOL. I think I'll pass on having the temple.

[sree]

i used wordsworth, goethe, and van gogh for illustrative purposes only as an altar to nature from a western philosophy pov.

i went with poets and an artist, an artist you guys dont fully appreciate, but its ok.

i am not against alcohol and enjoy sipping on my immortal wine from time to time, but i digress.

as far as finding Tao, it remains the mystery of mysteries. it is also paradox,

so how do you philosophers take on paradox?

i am thinking there is going to be a divide on Te as well.

my brand of Taoism is very basic, i get alot of mileage out of wu wei and ziran and common sense.

are we sticking with Lao Tzu only?

becoz my Tao is more than Lao Tzu

 

edit> i am a spiritual taoist, so maybe, i am disqualified from the start

 

What is a spiritual Taoist? Spirituality and spirits are two different things. The traditional Chinese Taoist is into spirits that are part and parcel of the Chinese Taoist religion aka Chinese Taoism. Are you into Chinese Taoism also? This would be like a dog embedding in cat culture or a man coming on as a woman. Like this:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaxTWj1ti84&NR=1&feature=fvwp

[Wu Ming Jen]

Spiritual the unseen world (seeing the unseen) Materialism the seen world, chasing after the illusion, Deities are actual people that have lived and some aspire to be great. Spirit the unseen "you" can be Dark or light, sharp or dull. spirit in western system is the living dead ahhh. Ghost is an alive person that forgot where they came from, western, Ahhh the living dead. God means unified mind, in the west a man you fear and who judges you Ahhhh.

[Stosh]

stosh, i agree about the emptiness and the manifest. this philosophy work that you like is called the Tao Te ching.

so in your view why is Te even mentioned ?

Sorry to drop so far back in the thead but I'd rather answer, than pass on it.

Cd and Rene and others can translate the individual characters which go together as a phrase (rather than distinct parts as in english) , I cant. .But I was told that the term is the guide of-to classical virtue.

Allowing for real difference in viewpoint one should maintain (like a juggler) the various sentiments that could be indicated.

The definitions and MEANINGS are all in doubt to some degree.

Is the english choice for the word Tao right ?

Is the choice for the word Te right ?

Is the choice for the word Ching Right ?

That being said , assuming 'Te' equating to our 'virtue' (trait of goodness) doesnt make any sense ( since good and evil are peception- perspective dependent ( one mans good is another mans evil)) ... and if Ching means 'classical' again the title makes no sense( because a virtue that is perspective dependent wouldnt hold in all circumstances.)

Tao is known to have several meanings (such as what wise men of the times was looking for.. a guide to living.. like Confucious came up with ).

'Te' in the title is not understandable as a goodness style virtue for other reasons as well. Te , understood more as the integral spirit -nature of a thing- fits better.

TTC then reads more like 'the natural way that things be' which isnt in contradiction to my view.

I am not trying to make a linguistic argument for the interp of the words, it is highly contextual instead.

 

Jumping ahead , Lao gives us the inverse to normal reasoning , demonstrates its viability with the literary device of the Sage, and the inverse of the inverse ( which is the normal view ) is left implied, because it is already understood to be valid.

You cant guide people , by telling them , either go left or right , up or down , be fat or skinny , be smart or ignorant and so on, ,,If a person wants to get places you cant tell them " go left " without taking into account where they are, (and be of any help) so he has to make a choice in his guide.

You have to go a step farther to see that the directives arent meant as they can seem to be worded.

Ex.1

If you want folks to ask you for your input , you keep your opinions to yourself ,, thats reasonable because folks dont want to be invalidated.,,, then again , Why would you want to be asked your opinions and not respond??

Ex. 2

If yang gives way to yin , and yin to yang , then you have cycle and balance over time, if one side always wins as in ONLY The soft overcoming the hard, the cycles stop. To have any of the stuff be reasonable to other intelligent folks ( as in the word classic ) There must be some accounting for the Yin bias in the TTC.

One has to put two and two together , often looking to our own lives and minds, to understand the meanings.

You now have my solution to the paradox, the tome is not to tell folks how they should be ,it is giving us the options and relationships to consider things 'outside the box', for our health happiness peace and fulfillment!

Just what an 'old heart' would wish to bestow on his grandkids and his people.

Wow Im out of breath!

 

 

Capisco paisano?

Edited April 23, 2013 by Stosh

[rene]

Sorry to drop so far back in the thead but I'd rather answer, than pass on it.

Cd and Rene and others can translate the individual characters which go together as a phrase (rather than distinct parts as in english) , I cant. .But I was told that the term is the guide of-to classical virtue.

Allowing for real difference in viewpoint one should maintain (like a juggler) the various sentiments that could be indicated.

The definitions and MEANINGS are all in doubt to some degree.

Is the english choice for the word Tao right ?

Is the choice for the word Te right ?

Is the choice for the word Ching Right ?

That being said , assuming 'Te' equating to our 'virtue' (trait of goodness) doesnt make any sense ( since good and evil are peception- perspective dependent ( one mans good is another mans evil)) ... and if Ching means 'classical' again the title makes no sense( because a virtue that is perspective dependent wouldnt hold in all circumstances.)

Tao is known to have several meanings (such as what wise men of the times was looking for.. a guide to living.. like Confucious came up with ).

'Te' in the title is not understandable as a goodness style virtue for other reasons as well. Te , understood more as the integral spirit -nature of a thing- fits better.

TTC then reads more like 'the natural way that things be' which isnt in contradiction to my view.

I am not trying to make a linguistic argument for the interp of the words, it is highly contextual instead.

 

Jumping ahead , Lao gives us the inverse to normal reasoning , demonstrates its viability with the literary device of the Sage, and the inverse of the inverse ( which is the normal view ) is left implied, because it is already understood to be valid.

You cant guide people , by telling them , either go left or right , up or down , be fat or skinny , be smart or ignorant and so on, ,,If a person wants to get places you cant tell them " go left " without taking into account where they are, (and be of any help) so he has to make a choice in his guide.

You have to go a step farther to see that the directives arent meant as they can seem to be worded.

Ex.1

If you want folks to ask you for your input , you keep your opinions to yourself ,, thats reasonable because folks dont want to be invalidated.,,, then again , Why would you want to be asked your opinions and not respond??

Ex. 2

If yang gives way to yin , and yin to yang , then you have cycle and balance over time, if one side always wins as in ONLY The soft overcoming the hard, the cycles stop. To have any of the stuff be reasonable to other intelligent folks ( as in the word classic ) There must be some accounting for the Yin bias in the TTC.

One has to put two and two together , often looking to our own lives and minds, to understand the meanings.

You now have my solution to the paradox, the tome is not to tell folks how they should be ,it is giving us the options and relationships to consider things 'outside the box', for our health happiness peace and fulfillment!

Just what an 'old heart' would wish to bestow on his grandkids and his people.

Wow Im out of breath!

 

 

Capisco paisano?

 

 

Capicé !!

 

Nice post, Stosh, and I hope you dont mind me jumpin in to reply a bit.

 

I dont read, write or translate from Chinese to English or English to Chinese. Like you and many others, I greatfully rely on the efforts of those who do...and..after doing this for 30 years have a fair handle on who does and doesn't offer consistancy in their choices, and more importantly, imo, the (mostly unintentional but still there) bias each 'translator' brings to his/her work.

 

The TTC was originally known as The Laozi but later, when it was incorporated into the Taoist Canon, its name was changed to make it more "suitable". The "Te" part of the name - when translated as (moral) Virtue - causes headaches for some and justifications for others. Used to point to morality, the TTC became a cornerstone of 'right behaviour'. When 'Virtue' is understood as a natural aspect (i.e., 'by virtue of') then the body of work does become, as you suggest, one of providing information choices can be made on, rather than a book of 'thou shalts'. The character 'Tao' has no equivalent in English; I wish 'Te' wasn't assigned one eiither...especially one with so much baggage. But as it was the Jesuits who made the first translation (in Latin) it's no surprise that "Virtue" was chosen.

 

And - I agree with your overall take. (-:

 

warm regards

[Stosh]

Capicé !! Nice post, Stosh, and I hope you dont mind me jumpin in to reply a bit. I dont read, write or translate from Chinese to English or English to Chinese. Like you and many others, I greatfully rely on the efforts of those who do...and..after doing this for 30 years have a fair handle on who does and doesn't offer consistancy in their choices, and more importantly, imo, the (mostly unintentional but still there) bias each 'translator' brings to his/her work. The TTC was originally known as The Laozi but later, when it was incorporated into the Taoist Canon, its name was changed to make it more "suitable". The "Te" part of the name - when translated as (moral) Virtue - causes headaches for some and justifications for others. Used to point to morality, the TTC became a cornerstone of 'right behaviour'. When 'Virtue' is understood as a natural aspect (i.e., 'by virtue of') then the body of work does become, as you suggest, one of providing information choices can be made on, rather than a book of 'thou shalts'. The character 'Tao' has no equivalent in English; I wish 'Te' wasn't assigned one eiither...especially one with so much baggage. But as it was the Jesuits who made the first translation (in Latin) it's no surprise that "Virtue" was chosen. And - I agree with your overall take. (-: warm regards

Thanks for the corrections and supplement. I usually feel like I am climbing uphill trying to explain my reading, and so any kind ofgetting the point is more than refreshing whether or not its completely in agreement on everything or not.