An Altar for Sree

[Stosh]

Is there someones stuff I can read ,to flesh out or anchor my READ ?

[shanlung]

I think this is going the way of our debates here on what is the Tao or even what a Taoist is.

 

We gave up and have a nice cup of Wulung tea instead.

 

Splitting the Tao , be that the philosophical, or religious , or New, or Classical and narrowing the focus of the Tao might help, or might not help. Tao is all of that, and more. Focusing might well give a more congenial pacifier for those that need pacifiers.

 

I being greedy, I want the Tao in all shapes and sizes and every kind. After all, the Tao of yesterday is different from the Tao of today and will be different from the Tao of tomorrow as sure as yesterday and today and tomorrow will always be different.

 

As in Taoist temples, or on altars, it might be better to have an iconic representative, be that Kuan Kong, or Lu DongBin or YingYang symbol as a focus of devotion. Or a rose, or even a pat of cowdung , or a pink pacifier, as all have the Tao in them.

 

A lot easier and more obtainable than imagining what cannot be imagine, or even named.

 

Maybe early peasants knew a lot more than a Doctor of Philosophy in just getting on with it and doing it instead of arguing ad infinitum in a Taoist forum.

 

Idiotic Taoist

[rene]

Is there someones stuff I can read ,to flesh out or anchor my READ ?

 

 

Yeah. Lao Tzu.

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I'll PM

Edited April 24, 2013 by rene

[rene]

I think this is going the way of our debates here on what is the Tao or even what a Taoist is.

 

We gave up and have a nice cup of Wulung tea instead.

 

Splitting the Tao , be that the philosophical, or religious , or New, or Classical and narrowing the focus of the Tao might help, or might not help. Tao is all of that, and more. Focusing might well give a more congenial pacifier for those that need pacifiers.

 

I being greedy, I want the Tao in all shapes and sizes and every kind. After all, the Tao of yesterday is different from the Tao of today and will be different from the Tao of tomorrow as sure as yesterday and today and tomorrow will always be different.

 

As in Taoist temples, or on altars, it might be better to have an iconic representative, be that Kuan Kong, or Lu DongBin or YingYang symbol as a focus of devotion. Or a rose, or even a pat of cowdung , or a pink pacifier, as all have the Tao in them.

 

A lot easier and more obtainable than imagining what cannot be imagine, or even named.

 

Maybe early peasants knew a lot more than a Doctor of Philosophy in just getting on with it and doing it instead of arguing ad infinitum in a Taoist forum.

 

Idiotic Taoist

 

Oh gee dragon... what if we enjoy sharing ideas?

 

Is there no room in your idea about Tao for that?

 

warm regards

[ChiDragon]

Allowing for real difference in viewpoint one should maintain (like a juggler) the various sentiments that could be indicated.

The definitions and MEANINGS are all in doubt to some degree.

Is the english choice for the word Tao right ?

Is the choice for the word Te right ?

Is the choice for the word Ching Right ?

 

That being said , assuming 'Te' equating to our 'virtue' (trait of goodness) doesnt make any sens1e ( since good and evil are peception- perspective dependent ( one mans good is another mans evil)) ... and if Ching means 'classical' again the title makes no sense( because a virtue that is perspective dependent wouldnt hold in all circumstances.)

Tao is known to have several meanings (such as what wise men of the times was looking for.. a guide to living.. like Confucious came up with ).

 

Very good, Stosh. I am glad that you are really reading into the thoughts. Also, I am glad that it doesn't make sense to you. It is because the message was there for your to grok but you just did not have to proper knowledge to comprehend it.

 

You are right about the "Te" is not equating to our 'virtue' (trait of goodness). The TTC has a different definition. "Te" means those who follow the Principles of Tao was considered to have the "Virtue of Tao", 道德(Tao Te). Just Like you said, it should have anything to do with Confucius. The Virtue of Tao is different from the "trait of goodness".

 

 

 

'Te' in the title is not understandable as a goodness style virtue for other reasons as well. Te , understood more as the integral spirit -nature of a thing- fits better.

TTC then reads more like 'the natural way that things be' which isnt in contradiction to my view.

I am not trying to make a linguistic argument for the interp of the words, it is highly contextual instead.

 

 

In following your proper thinking,

The tile of the 道德經(Tao Te Ching) should be translated as "The Classic of Tao and Te"

It is because the Tao Te Ching comprise of two part. One part talks about Tao and the other is Te. Thus the native scholars called the original Lao Tze as 道德經(Tao Te Ching). However, it must not be confused with the Tao Te in the philosophy of Confucius.

 

PS....

Again, Stosh, you are a respectable scholar and a gentleman in my book......

 

 

Edited April 24, 2013 by ChiDragon

[shanlung]

Oh gee dragon... what if we enjoy sharing ideas?

 

Is there no room in your idea about Tao for that?

 

warm regards

 

Now , that together with Wulung tea and laughter and stories will always be a good thing to share.

The Tao that I think I know has loads and loads of room for that.

My Tao has happiness and hope for all, and pacifiers of all shapes and sizes.

Only if you are sad, and want to have something to make you more sad, you will not find that in my Tao.

 

Idiotic Taoist

[mYTHmAKER]

Speaking of miracles,
this universe,
meaning
all
that is conceivable,
and
inconceivable,
is the body of Tao.

Everything,
from the smallest
to the largest,
without exception,
is Tao.

Parts of Tao
are not parts;
we think of parts
as separate.

All parts of Tao
are whole,
only
they appear
as different shapes
and forms.

There is the same
amount of Tao
in everything
regardless of size;
an elephant
is not more Tao
than a mouse.

Tao is
organic,
inorganic,
plastic,
spastic;
there’s
no
us and them
no
you and me.

There is only Tao.

[sree]

Hey mythy, you ok?

[sree]

Yes, an altar can reflect the limitlessness it already is, and if the limitlessness is already understood then YAY! eh?

 

But if it is not understood - then there might be re-inforcement of the worship aspect, or the idea that one needs more... for example, paying a doctrine for a ritual to "receive the dao"... or purchasing books/training to 'find the dao' - you get the drift.

 

My points aren't really about altars... rather what a natural progression on a path might be.

 

warm regards

 

An altar may be necessary to keep you centered. Regardless of how in sync you are, you still need to relate with guys like me who can catch your drift. Philosophical Daoists of the west live in cities and need a setting to join in celebration. People typically gather by the fireplace which makes a wonderful altar. Why would that be limiting or containing?

 

Religion doesn't have to be doctrinal or ceremonial. Spirituality doesn't need to reside in or inhabit anything. And devotion has nothing to do with devotees when worship is not a thing you do. It's a state of communing that comes univited when there is togetherness.

 

Is that natural enough for you?

Edited April 24, 2013 by sree

[rene]

Now , that together with Wulung tea and laughter and stories will always be a good thing to share.

The Tao that I think I know has loads and loads of room for that.

My Tao has happiness and hope for all, and pacifiers of all shapes and sizes.

Only if you are sad, and want to have something to make you more sad, you will not find that in my Tao.

 

Idiotic Taoist

 

Sounds like a plan (-:

 

 

warm regards

[sree]

You are right about the "Te" is not equating to our 'virtue' (trait of goodness). The TTC has a different definition. "Te" means those who follow the Principles of Tao was considered to have the "Virtue of Tao", 道德(Tao Te). Just Like you said, it should have anything to do with Confucius. The Virtue of Tao is different from the "trait of goodness".

 

There must be some kind of virtue in the Tao Te Ching equating to human goodness. After all, it is a human book written by humans for humans for the biased purpose of living wisely. Even the warlike Sun Tzu dealing with the conduct of human conflict embraces the virtue of the Tao Te Ching for the human good. I daresay that goodness is the fundamental rationale found in all the Chinese classics.

 

There is no objective Tao devoid of human connection. Such a concept is foreign to and contradicts the basic value that inspired traditional Chinese scholarly pursuit. This was why the goodness ideal ( 聖人) was always central to the self-cultivation of the noble man (君子).

 

Philosophical Daoists, including me, must import the authentic Tao from China and not fashion a knock-off perversion of the original for western consumption.

[newTaoist]

I found this cool video that shows a basic altar setup. Check it out!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjNqvrP_Jp8

[Reed]

I think this is going the way of our debates here on what is the Tao or even what a Taoist is.

 

We gave up and have a nice cup of Wulung tea instead.

 

Maybe early peasants knew a lot more than a Doctor of Philosophy in just getting on with it and doing it instead of arguing ad infinitum in a Taoist forum.

 

Yeah, I have to agree with this although, as you've said later on, it can be fun to exchange ideas as well (depending on who you're having discussions with, I guess).

 

This reminds me a little of Hume's quote although I assume most people on here aren't suffering from philosophical melancholy and delirium

 

 

“Where am I, or what? From what causes do I derive my existence, and to what condition shall I return? ... I am confounded with all these questions, and begin to fancy myself in the most deplorable condition imaginable, environed with the deepest darkness, and utterly deprived of the use of every member and faculty.

 

Most fortunately it happens, that since Reason is incapable of dispelling these clouds, Nature herself suffices to that purpose, and cures me of this philosophical melancholy and delirium, either by relaxing this bent of mind, or by some avocation, and lively impression of my senses, which obliterate all these chimeras. I dine, I play a game of backgammon, I converse, and am merry with my friends. And when, after three or four hours' amusement, I would return to these speculations, they appear so cold, and strained, and ridiculous, that I cannot find in my heart to enter into them any farther.”

― David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding

Edited April 24, 2013 by Reed

[shanlung]

Yeah, I have to agree with this although, as you've said later on, it can be fun to exchange ideas as well (depending on who you're having discussions with, I guess).

 

This reminds me a little of Hume's quote although I assume most people on here aren't suffering from philosophical melancholy and delirium

 

 

Ever since that Taoist Immortal I met one rainswept day in a small town of North Taiwan told me Be happy and do not worry , I took what he said to heart.

 

Prior that, I thought I faced death in a couple of my episodes in checking out sunrises and sunsets. Obviously I was wrong or I would not be writing to you. Perception of life became very different and life/death boundary is but a step away.

 

I have time for people in despair and sad that they know they need not grief alone, but no time for those who felt it upon them to inflict sadness and despair. Life is short enough to enjoy all you can. In times of my tragedies (that can be seen in my blog), I reflected on what happened like in Beslan occuring then and decided I be thankful that did not happen in my community.

 

I am very wary at those with righteous views and thoughts as if those have power that I am glad they did not have, they will impose their views on everyone else as of course, they and they alone are pure and incorruptable. Suicide bombers came from such groups. And on Tao that cannot be defined, such person are going to define that for everyone else.

 

But to each their own.

Happiness for those that be happy, contentment for those that are contented and sadness for those that yearned to be sad.

 

 

Taoistic Idiot

[sree]

I found this cool video that shows a basic altar setup. Check it out!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjNqvrP_Jp8

 

Are you going for it? I really like the owner of that altar and she makes a good presentation. In another youtube clip, for busy Daoists, she recommended using miniature plastic food items like beer and baguette. The Three Pure Ones and the Jade Emperor are now part of her American life.

 

What's wrong with the Holy Trinity and the Pope?

[mYTHmAKER]

Hey mythy, you ok?

LOL

[newTaoist]

Are you going for it? I really like the owner of that altar and she makes a good presentation. In another youtube clip, for busy Daoists, she recommended using miniature plastic food items like beer and baguette. The Three Pure Ones and the Jade Emperor are now part of her American life.

 

What's wrong with the Holy Trinity and the Pope?

I'm "this" close to going for it.

[sree]

I'm "this" close to going for it.

 

What is holding you back?

 

The Three Pure Ones and the Jade Emperor are culturally quaint for an American home environment. Does it have to be traditional Chinese deities? If an American believe in spirits, aren't there equivalents from western culture?

 

The Taoist altar has powerful Chinese imagery based on the traditional model. It forces the devotee to go "Chinese". Admittedly, it would make a fashion statement in your home like a 道 tattoo on your arm.

[newTaoist]

Well, something as boring as money. I'll just have to make my list of what to get for now and do my purchasing later. I do intend to use pictures to save on casholla.

[sree]

Well, something as boring as money. I'll just have to make my list of what to get for now and do my purchasing later. I do intend to use pictures to save on casholla.

 

You know what? There must be millions of Americans out there who want a Home Taoist altar and don't know how to go about it just like you. Such an Altar set can be put together, packed and shipped for $19.99 and if those who "order now" get it blessed by our resident Maoshan Shaman, Flowing Hands.

 

Just two bucks profit per altar would make you a multi-millionaire. With the money, you can build a Taoist Temple in Florida for Flowing Hands.

[newTaoist]

You know what? There must be millions of Americans out there who want a Home Taoist altar and don't know how to go about it just like you. Such an Altar set can be put together, packed and shipped for $19.99 and if those who "order now" get it blessed by our resident Maoshan Shaman, Flowing Hands.

 

Just two bucks profit per altar would make you a multi-millionaire. With the money, you can build a Taoist Temple in Florida for Flowing Hands.

Absolutely hysterical sree! I love it. LOL

[zanshin]

Then you look harder till you find it.

 

 

I think it is meaningful especially if one has nothing better to do. Anyway, we are looking into a Taoist altar for philosophical Daoists of the west for the purpose of worship. The traditional Chinese Taoist altars are meant for relating with deities and ancestral spirits.

 

Do you have any ideas for our consideration?

How about if instead of this word worship we said for inspiration or celebration. I think I naturally build them and upkeep them, but as a philosophical Taoist it's not really about worship.

[sree]

How about if instead of this word worship we said for inspiration or celebration. I think I naturally build them and upkeep them, but as a philosophical Taoist it's not really about worship.

 

The word - worship, inspiration or celebration - is not important. The empirical act of devotion that is experienced at the physical level is a tangible affirmation of the internalization of the Tao. Without this, philosophical Daoism is hearsay and just a bunch of information gathered by one person from another person concerning some condition or thing of which the first person has no direct experience.

 

For the genuine philosophical Daoist, worship has to be more than burning incense and ritual offerings of food to the Three Pure Ones. Ritual practices of the traditional religious Taoist are symbolic and not acts of real worship. All things being equal, symbolism, at least, has more skin in the game than hearsay.

Edited April 25, 2013 by sree

[ChiDragon]

To find the wind and catch her shadow are not an easy thing to do.

[sree]

To find the wind and catch her shadow are not an easy thing to do.

 

True. But the Tao Te Ching is a simple book made complex by foreign wind-finders and shadow-hunters. Thus, the philosophical Daoist do not rely on hearsay and seeks direct divine revelation from the Chinese text without intermediaries be they deities, priests or translators.

 

Worship is an act of devotion, an expression of love. Unless it is real, don't do it.