An Altar for Sree

[sree]

可與之言而不與之言，失人

不可與之言而與之言，失言

 

The one who may be spoken to but not spoken to, lost the valuable one.　

The one who may not be spoken to but spoken to, wasted the valuable words.

 

I have been mulling about this and wonder if you would comment on the following:

 

Verbatim translation

 

That which is worthy of becoming word does not become word, lose man.

That which is not worthy of becoming word becomes word, lose word.

 

Interpretation

 

If that which is worthy of becoming a teaching does not become a teaching, the man is lost.

If that which is not worthy of becoming a teaching becomes a teaching, wasted words.

 

I must admit that the meaning of the Chinese text is very subtle and not easy to grasp.

Once grasped, it is difficult to convey even in Chinese. Worst of all, is the translating and

the interpretating because that would be mutilating the composition itself. A butterfly

deconstructed and re-assembled in any way is not a butterfly. This is my argument against

translations of the Tao Te Ching.

Edited April 28, 2013 by sree

[ChiDragon]

1. 可與之言而不與之言，失人
2. 不可與之言而與之言，失言

1. The one who may be spoken to but not spoken to, lost the valuable one.　
2. The one who may not be spoken to but spoken to, wasted the valuable words.

Translation in more comprehensive English:
1. Someone you could talk to but you did not, thus you loose that person.
2. Someone you should not talk to but you did, thus you had wasted your breath.

Interpretation:
1. There was this knowledgeable person that you could have asked questions; but you didn't. Now, you have lose a valuable teacher.

2. There was this person which has no knowledge that you shouldn't be talking to him; but you did. Thus you were wasting your time and effort by talking to him.

Edited April 28, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Stosh]

in english ,"it takes two to tango "

[sree]

1. 可與之言而不與之言，失人

2. 不可與之言而與之言，失言

 

Interpretation:

1. There was this knowledgeable person that you could have asked questions; but you didn't. Now, you have lose a valuable teacher.

 

2. There was this person which has no knowledge that you shouldn't be talking to him; but you did. Thus you were wasting your time and effort by talking to him.

 

It definitely can be interpretated that way. 言 (word) symbolizes the knowledgeable person. And your value of the teacher (knowledgeable person), the seeking of whom is an imperative in traditional Chinese culture, makes learning from him an opportunity not to be missed.

 

Being Chinese, like Gia Fu Feng and Derek Lin, and taught this value doesn't mean that it would be practised as taught. Western values play a part in shaping Chinese minds the way fine oolong tea ( a gift from me to a friend) is laced with milk (to my horror) and served (to me) in London.

 

Let's enjoy our tea the way Chinese do, without the milk, the honey and that slice of sour lemon.

Edited April 28, 2013 by sree

[Reed]

I bow to your much more current memory, it is ideed eric berne m.d. ( I have a copy right here) and hope my read was not in much more error.

Loved that kind of stuff ages ago,

 

Yeah, it's been about 20 years since I looked at his stuff so I'm not the best person to comment on your read although it seemed cool from what I remember of his stuff

 

TA could warrant thread of its own since it seems so different from Freudian stuff and so applicable it almost qualifies as alternative medicine

 

I think that thread could be an interesting discussion. I have various thoughts about TA, your read, and I also think there may be some overlap with Freud, IMO, although definite differences as well. Either way, it could be fun to look at it again, and maybe even see how it might fit with Taoism (whatever that might be ).

 

was robert byrne the author of ode to a flea ? SWYMD?

 

Ha! Nice try but I'm not going to take responsibility for what you did and play that game with you

[adept]

GUIDANCE

Worship with your conscience,
Receive grace with humility.
Guide with awareness,
Lead with modesty.

The altar is a tool. If we kneel before it and say we have done wrong, we are really telling that to ourselves. If we give thanks for our good fortune, we are expressing our modest appreciation for good luck. There is no outside force listening to us. There is no divine retribution for our wickedness. The altar is merely symbolic. Those who follow Tao use it to focus their self-awareness.

When we step away from the altar, we should not lose self-awareness. We should not take the fact that worship is symbolic to behave in immoral ways. Instead, we still have to act with a conscience and lead others without manipulating them or taking advantage of them.

It takes maturity to grasp that there are no gods and yet still behave as if there were. It takes insight to know that you must be your own disciplinarian. Only the wisest can lay down their own "divine laws" and find guidance as if they were truly heaven's word.

 

 

Today's entry from 365 Tao. Thought it might be appropriate to the discussion.

Edited April 28, 2013 by adept

[sree]

 

GUIDANCE

Worship with your conscience,

Receive grace with humility.

Guide with awareness,

Lead with modesty.

 

The altar is a tool. If we kneel before it and say we have done wrong, we are really telling that to ourselves. If we give thanks for our good fortune, we are expressing our modest appreciation for good luck. There is no outside force listening to us. There is no divine retribution for our wickedness. The altar is merely symbolic. Those who follow Tao use it to focus their self-awareness.

 

When we step away from the altar, we should not lose self-awareness. We should not take the fact that worship is symbolic to behave in immoral ways. Instead, we still have to act with a conscience and lead others without manipulating them or taking advantage of them.

 

It takes maturity to grasp that there are no gods and yet still behave as if there were. It takes insight to know that you must be your own disciplinarian. Only the wisest can lay down their own "divine laws" and find guidance as if they were truly heaven's word.

 

Thank you for your contribution which is a teaching. May I know which Taoist sect are you from?

 

This altar we want to built is for Philosophical Daoists of the west (not western China but the western world mainly the USA) who are not atheists and feel the need to walk the talk.

 

Devotion is applied philosophy. Without worship, philosophy is small talk.

[rene]

Thank you for your contribution which is a teaching. May I know which Taoist sect are you from?

 

This altar we want to built is for Philosophical Daoists of the west (not western China but the western world mainly the USA) who are not atheists and feel the need to walk the talk.

 

Devotion is applied philosophy. Without worship, philosophy is small talk.

 

sree, hi

 

Who is the we you are referring to?

 

Thanks!

[Stosh]

Thank you for your contribution which is a teaching. May I know which Taoist sect are you from?

 

This altar we want to built is for Philosophical Daoists of the west (not western China but the western world mainly the USA) who are not atheists and feel the need to walk the talk.

 

Devotion is applied philosophy. Without worship, philosophy is small talk.

Arent figurines and bowls of fruit effectively talk, not walk ?

Walk being the way one is actually approaching their life.

Bowls of fruit and incense integral to 'new age' paraphenalia.

What is worship either for that matter ?

telling a god that they will behave like a good little boy or girl?

or begging for boons one hasnt got for themselves.

And in what way is tao 'worship' away from an altar, subordinate to

chanting in front of one, what one professes to think.

 

If someone approaches tao as a subject of interest and a guide,

that may be philosophical by definition ,, then again worship

by whatever you mean it to mean-

seems to belong in the realm of religious behavior.

Why would you want to associate yourself with the philosophs

when your attitude is in line with the religios?

 

Go ahead and profess obedience to a candle if you want

(for all the good it will do you, only you can judge)

I dont see the point , but if you like to , I guess that should be fine.

 

Have you noticed the similarity in the altars presented

Little stages , figures of hypothetical people , etc

the advantage of them is that they are compartmentalized

the religion is relegated to a certain place or time

and so - one can abandon it to get along with LIFE

whereas if ones live is homage to ones beliefs

then the acts are pervasive and heartfelt

rather than artiface.

 

( at least that might be the case , I am not sure, Im not religious )

Edited April 29, 2013 by Stosh

[sree]

It took you quite a while to get to the point.

 

whereas if ones live is homage to ones beliefs

then the acts are pervasive and heartfelt

rather than artiface.

 

You meant one's life is homage to one's beliefs, right?

This is what our altar is for - us. We worship us who the Three Pure Ones represent in Chinese Taoism.

 

( at least that might be the case , I am not sure, Im not religious )

 

Then you'd better be sure.

As your dad might say, "Stosh, when the hell are you going to make something of yourself?"

You can't be a bum all your life.

[sree]

sree, hi

 

Who is the we you are referring to?

 

Thanks!

 

Us, Rene. I am referring to us.

[rene]

Us, Rene. I am referring to us.

 

Yes, but who? Philosophical Daoists?

 

I'm curious as to which group you are trying to 'save' from only having 'small talk'. Your posts suggest you are speaking for all of them. Is that what you believe you are doing?

 

thanks!

[Stosh]

It took you quite a while to get to the point.

 

 

You meant one's life is homage to one's beliefs, right?

This is what our altar is for - us. We worship us who the Three Pure Ones represent in Chinese Taoism.

 

 

Then you'd better be sure.

As your dad might say, "Stosh, when the hell are you going to make something of yourself?"

You can't be a bum all your life.

Yeah I was a bit wordy yesterday, (yes on the misspell)

but you are still evading what the heck worship for philosophs would be.

And I dont see why begging from, or trying to please, or trying to emulate,

or trying to be , an inanimate object,

(so I am leaving open for some other definition if you have one)

would constitute making anything of myself other than a true

hypocrite as opposed to a 'bum' .

I can live with 'bum' a while.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Stosh

[sree]

Yeah I was a bit wordy yesterday, (yes on the misspell)

but you are still evading what the heck worship for philosophs would be.

 

It depends. Some philosophs are hypocrites, others are bums. I am thinking about something genuine.

 

And I dont see why begging from, or trying to please, or trying to emulate,

or trying to be , an inanimate object,

(so I am leaving open for some other definition if you have one)

would constitute making anything of myself other than a true

hypocrite as opposed to a 'bum' .

 

A hypocrite doesn't know he is being silly. The bum does.

 

I can live with 'bum' a while.

 

Is that an affectation like walking barefoot?

Edited April 29, 2013 by sree

[sree]

Yes, but who? Philosophical Daoists?

 

Who else? It's time we stop with the talking and start makng a commitment. ;

I'm curious as to which group you are trying to 'save' from only having 'small talk'. Your posts suggest you are speaking for all of them. Is that what you believe you are doing?

 

I am not speaking for all of them. We don't want bums and hypocrites.

 

I look at the traditional Taoist Altar for the Three Pure Ones and wonder why here in the west we don't make some effort to come to terms with and embrace reality as we see it, the way the Chinese unabashedly do from the moment they felt at peace with it. Are we like John, the closest of the disciples who denied Jesus? Why don't we step forward and be counted if we really feel what we philosophize?

[rene]

Who else? It's time we stop with the talking and start makng a commitment. ;

 

I am not speaking for all of them. We don't want bums and hypocrites.

 

I look at the traditional Taoist Altar for the Three Pure Ones and wonder why here in the west we don't make some effort to come to terms with and embrace reality as we see it, the way the Chinese unabashedly do from the moment they felt at peace with it. Are we like John, the closest of the disciples who denied Jesus? Why don't we step forward and be counted if we really feel what we philosophize?

 

Well, thats a relief, lol. For a while it was like listening to Jesus with soy sauce. I see now that's not the case; Jesus would have welcomed bums and hypocrites. (As would probably most 'Philosophical Daoists')

 

Even though I am not a Philosophical Daoist, I wish you good luck on your path. Maybe soon you will have followers to stand with you in your cause; or at the very least you are able to let go of your fear of flying alone. (-:

 

warm regards

[adept]

None. I care nothing for the man-made religions of the world.

The teachings of the sages are all that I need. When mankind compartmentalizes these and creates divisions, that is when the trouble starts.

For instance all the 'my sect/tradition/practice/belief system is better than yours' BS that rears it's ugly head on countless discussion boards. Not for me thank you.

May I know which Taoist sect are you from?

[newTaoist]

I'm looking forward to having an altar for myself. I don't belong to a sect and have no desire to. Even though I will probably follow a tradition, it certainly won't mean that I will think it is better than another. My practice is simply my practice, which will happen to include a Daoist altar only to enhance my practice. I have no desire to argue or spread BS. I hope my position is clear, I'm not the best writer.

Edited April 29, 2013 by newTaoist

[Stosh]

Sree,

A hypocrite doesn't know he is being silly. The bum does.

Since when? on either count.

No, its a reference to a your thing about a father saying to his son when are you going to make something of yourself

and its a reference to participating here Tao bums ,

and its referring to your own equation that worship to a candle means some sort of personal milestone has been reached..

 

It makes no sense at all to worship a candle or rock , Christians for instance may worship at a thing - to a god they think exists.

You on the other hand seem to be promoting worship of a thing which has no significance and no ulterior target, no listener.

 

Thats fine with me , you can worship a banana if you care to. But I dont think it represents a higher order of philosophical Taoism to do so since it entirely misses the point. IMO

Edited April 29, 2013 by Stosh

[sree]

I'm looking forward to having an altar for myself. I don't belong to a sect and have no desire to. Even though I will probably follow a tradition, it certainly won't mean that I will think it is better than another. My practice is simply my practice, which will happen to include a Daoist altar only to enhance my practice. I have no desire to argue or spread BS. I hope my position is clear, I'm not the best writer.

 

I am curious about your altar search that seem to have led you to the Three Pure Ones of Chinese Taoism. Embracing a Chinese religion is not the same as eating Chinese food. Any westerner can go into a Chinese restaurant and wolf down dim sum and kung pau chicken without being Chinese. To worship the Three Pure Ones is to be Chinese. Taoism is not like Christianity that anyone can embrace. It is like Judaism that is not meant for the gentiles.

 

Since you state here that you don't belong nor desire to belong to a Taoist sect, then you are a collector, like a gun collector who owns gun with no desire to use them as weapons.

[DragonsNectar69k]

Altars are f*cking pointless, in my opinion. Sure they can allow one to tune back into a certain state of mind or synergy, so to speak. But they mean nothing and they only idolize the BS that one can concoct in their brain. You, yes you, are the God numb nuts, the rest is futile. What you do with your time and your day is simply that... Reading spiritual philosophy and thinking about this stuff can be fun, but without a sense of self, said person truly being God, you won't realize anything that will move your mind or enlighten your self. You will constantly end up at odds with yourself.

 

If you want an atlar, a temple, etc, look in the mirror. No one can have, change, or desecrate that altar. It is simply yours to do what you may with it.

 

 

The Three Pure Ones... The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. Hahaha. Look at that parallel.

 

Have a good day.

Edited April 29, 2013 by DragonsNectar69k

[DragonsNectar69k]

This is the best Altar for a Taoist:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Might I say the best altar for any human!

[newTaoist]

sree, where have you read that you must be Chinese in order to worship the Three Pure Ones? If you have then that source is misinformed. Daoist Westerners have altars for ritual. In fact Deng-Ming Dao the Master and writer has so kindly answered my questions regarding this and is writing a 3 part article on his Facebook page explaining how ANYONE can build an altar and how to use it.

 

Daoism is something that anyone can embrace. Why are you even arguing this point? I find it offensive frankly. Enjoy your day. I don't intend to reply since based on your previous posts all you do is cause trouble and argue.

Edited April 29, 2013 by newTaoist

[newTaoist]

Altars are f*cking pointless, in my opinion. Sure they can allow one to tune back into a certain state of mind or synergy, so to speak. But they mean nothing and they only idolize the BS that one can concoct in their brain. You, yes you, are the God numb nuts, the rest is futile. What you do with your time and your day is simply that... Reading spiritual philosophy and thinking about this stuff can be fun, but without a sense of self, said person truly being God, you won't realize anything that will move your mind or enlighten your self. You will constantly end up at odds with yourself.

 

If you want an atlar, a temple, etc, look in the mirror. No one can have, change, or desecrate that altar. It is simply yours to do what you may with it.

 

 

The Three Pure Ones... The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. Hahaha. Look at that parallel.

 

Have a good day.

To each their own I always say.

[dawei]

To worship the Three Pure Ones is to be Chinese. Taoism is not like Christianity that anyone can embrace. It is like Judaism that is not meant for the gentiles.

 

Since you state here that you don't belong nor desire to belong to a Taoist sect, then you are a collector, like a gun collector who owns gun with no desire to use them as weapons.

 

Hi Sree,

 

You have strongly advocated an alter for western daoist. What is your suggestion?

 

As to the Three Pure Ones: Can a westerner come to understand them and respect them in the way you suggest chinese can?

 

Should a westerner choose one or two or three to their liking?

 

I am simply curious as to what you would recommend in the end.

 

Good stuck so far.