An Altar for Sree

[DragonsNectar69k]

To each their own I always say.

 

Indeed. I guess I should extrapolate on the point i was trying to make. It is not the altar or customs that make one spiritual. It is the Spirit that made the altar or customs. Just how Catholics, Orthodox Christians, Voodoo's, and dare I even say Satanist who have their own altars...

 

Now if one is willing to get into a discussion concerning the relevance of how altars are symbolic and can be anchors for and in one's subconscious mind, this I am willing to invest time in. Reason being, I remember going out of body once and found myself some where near the Vatican and went underground to this basement that had a cross of some kind with a bunch of jewelery. No idea what that dream was about or why I was there. The only thing that came to mind was this item held a energetic relevance some how. lolz. Sort of like Zelda.

Edited April 29, 2013 by DragonsNectar69k

[newTaoist]

Indeed. I guess I should extrapolate on the point i was trying to make. It is not the altar or customs that make one spiritual. It is the Spirit that made the altar or customs. Just how Catholics, Orthodox Christians, Voodoo's, and dare I even say Satanist who have their own altars...

 

Now if one is willing to get into a discussion concerning the relevance of how altars are symbolic and can be anchors for and in one's subconscious mind, this I am willing to invest time in. Reason being, I remember going out of body once and found myself some where near the Vatican and went underground to this basement that had a cross of some kind with a bunch of jewelery. No idea what that dream was about or why I was there. The only thing that came to mind was this item held a energetic relevance some how. lolz. Sort of like Zelda.

You said it better than I did: "altars are symbolic and can be anchors for and in one's subconscious mind". That's how I am relating to my upcoming experience with an altar. It's what I meant by enhancing my practice.

[dawei]

You said it better than I did: "altars are symbolic and can be anchors for and in one's subconscious mind". That's how I am relating to my upcoming experience with an altar. It's what I meant by enhancing my practice.

 

On some level... symbolism is then not necessary except for the mind and tongue.

 

I honestly think Sree was very close with his comments on the natural tendency towards devotion and that is definitely not symbolism... nor whatever follows.

 

If it is simply a wishful thought for the moment... then try whatever you want to do.

[DragonsNectar69k]

I use to have a pokemon altar... Those pokemon taught me a lot..

 

I wanted to be the very best, like no one ever was...

Edited April 29, 2013 by DragonsNectar69k

[newTaoist]

On some level... symbolism is then not necessary except for the mind and tongue.

 

I honestly think Sree was very close with his comments on the natural tendency towards devotion and that is definitely not symbolism... nor whatever follows.

 

If it is simply a wishful thought for the moment... then try whatever you want to do.

I see it as symbolism so my mind can comprehend the process of devotion. I learn and understand things, including the Dao, by doing. Unfortunately, meditation and gi gong, etc. aren't things I enjoy. Therefore, they don't clear my mind. I'm hoping that my altar will help me considerably. I hope this makes sense.

[dawei]

I see it as symbolism so my mind can comprehend the process of devotion. I learn and understand things, including the Dao, by doing. Unfortunately, meditation and gi gong, etc. aren't things I enjoy. Therefore, they don't clear my mind. I'm hoping that my altar will help me considerably. I hope this makes sense.

 

Honesty is nice to read. Thanks.

 

Your on a path which only you can clearly know. That path may have temporal or permanent symbolism and alters and doings. That is your path to find out. I truly respect that.

 

Follow your path with all due respect and devotion and hopefully it is not temporal. Tomorrow may bring an unforeseen step.

[rene]

newTaoist, your words are clear.

 

dawei -

sree wants an altar for worship, devotion;

newTaoist speaks of an altar "as symbolism, for and in one's subconcious mind".

 

Do you see the difference between what they seek? It seems as there is an attempt to subsume one idea within the other, when both are equally valid on their own, imo.

 

Thoughts?

[DragonsNectar69k]

I see it as symbolism so my mind can comprehend the process of devotion. I learn and understand things, including the Dao, by doing. Unfortunately, meditation and gi gong, etc. aren't things I enjoy. Therefore, they don't clear my mind. I'm hoping that my altar will help me considerably. I hope this makes sense.

 

Interesting synchronicity today.

 

 

 

His disciples asked him and said unto him: Wilt thou that we fast? And how shall we pray? Shall we give alms? And what rules shall we observe in eating? Jesus said: Do not lie; and that which you hate, do not do. For all things are revealed before heaven. For there is nothing hidden which shall not be made manifest, and there is nothing covered which shall remain uncovered.

Elucidation:

By fasting, praying and giving alms, no man has ever become more human. These things belong to a life in society. By fasting, you do not do yourself justice. You only pray to a god if you do not realize that you are god yourself. You can only give alms if you posses property, and property is theft from community. http://www.gospelofthomas.org/ "The GOSPEL of THOMAS Elucidation of the secret words The TAO TE CHING of LAO TZU"

Edited April 30, 2013 by DragonsNectar69k

[newTaoist]

newTaoist, your words are clear.

 

dawei -

sree wants an altar for worship, devotion;

newTaoist speaks of an altar "as symbolism, for and in one's subconcious mind".

 

Do you see the difference between what they seek? It seems as there is an attempt to subsume one idea within the other, when both are equally valid on their own, imo.

 

Thoughts?

Certainly both are valid. I certainly didn't want to come across otherwise, if I did.

[dawei]

newTaoist, your words are clear.

 

dawei -

sree wants an altar for worship, devotion;

newTaoist speaks of an altar "as symbolism, for and in one's subconcious mind".

 

Do you see the difference between what they seek? It seems as there is an attempt to subsume one idea within the other, when both are equally valid on their own, imo.

 

Thoughts?

 

I am at the same cross-roads with this; each has a clear mind as to what they want; Devotion vs Symbolism. If we pick sides and define it then we find some reason to argue the other side. But if we accept the attitude of the heart, whether in the end it is temporal or permanent, I think we need to accept that 'way'.

 

I may be (and you may be) more inclined towards one way, but we should not dismiss another's way. Where each way leads is according to their own. I would hope we are here to comment on what we hear and what we may advise but in the end, we would want to encourage honest pursuits of individual paths; even if that is not my path.

[dawei]

Certainly both are valid. I certainly didn't want to come across otherwise, if I did.

 

IMO, any path is certainly valid... whether it is ultimately of the symbolism and devotion in the end, is part of the path. If it is, then the path is confirmed. When does one get such confirmation?

 

If it is not... then one is back at reflecting on what one just went through and pursue for what reason... and to recollect just exactly what they are going after or seeking.

[newTaoist]

I've certainly learned a lot through this discussion and hope to continue learning.

[rene]

I am at the same cross-roads with this; each has a clear mind as to what they want; Devotion vs Symbolism. If we pick sides and define it then we find some reason to argue the other side. But if we accept the attitude of the heart, whether in the end it is temporal or permanent, I think we need to accept that 'way'.

 

I may be (and you may be) more inclined towards one way, but we should not dismiss another's way. Where each way leads is according to their own. I would hope we are here to comment on what we hear and what we may advise but in the end, we would want to encourage honest pursuits of individual paths; even if that is not my path.

 

dawei - I agree and well put. Unfortunately, the idea of "Devotion/worship" has been repeatedly and rudely shoved in the face of those participating in this thread who may be more inclined towards 'Symbolism'. Maybe sree will understand your words better. (-:

 

Certainly both are valid. I certainly didn't want to come across otherwise, if I did.

 

newTaoist - You didn't, and haven't. (-:

 

warm regards

 

p.s..newTaoist - major kudos on the DengMingDao catch! Looking forward to parts 2&3 !

Edited April 30, 2013 by rene

[DragonsNectar69k]

IMO, any path is certainly valid... whether it is ultimately of the symbolism and devotion in the end, is part of the path. If it is, then the path is confirmed. When does one get such confirmation?

 

If it is not... then one is back at reflecting on what one just went through and pursue for what reason... and to recollect just exactly what they are going after or seeking.

 

I usually get confirmation from other people and beings in the dream state, but it doesn't mean I always agree with said path or what I am aiming for.

 

There is no path, but the path itself. There is no confirmation, besides the one you realize for yourself and are willing to acknowledge.

[dawei]

dawei - I agree and well put. Unfortunately, the idea of "Devotion/worship" has been repeatedly and rudely shoved in the face of those participating in this thread who may be more inclined towards 'Symbolism'. Maybe sree will understand your words better. (-:

 

I think you are paying deeper attention to the thread than I am... I understand Sree. So I only come in occasionally to the thread. But you are wont to show the philosophy that 'two arise as one'...

[dawei]

I usually get confirmation from other people and beings in the dream state, but it doesn't mean I always agree with said path or what I am aiming for.

 

There is no path, but the path itself. There is no confirmation, besides the one you realize for yourself and are willing to acknowledge.

 

It sounds to me like you are simply describing your path...

[sree]

I think you are paying deeper attention to the thread than I am... I understand Sree. So I only come in occasionally to the thread. But you are wont to show the philosophy that 'two arise as one'...

 

Why does Rene fight me on this? She rejects the altar I feel we need, and she sees my argument for it as insensitive and pose a problem to the status quo for not only traditional Taoism but also to philosophical Daoists of the west.

 

Perhaps you could throw some light on this for me.

[dawei]

Why does Rene fight me on this? She rejects the altar I feel we need, and she sees my argument for it as insensitive and pose a problem to the status quo for not only traditional Taoism but also to philosophical Daoists of the west.

 

Perhaps you could throw some light on this for me.

 

Sree: This is my take. Rene wanted to understand your motivation and approach. You expressed your position as resulting in a desire of devotion and an alter; This is, to Rene, an act to 'contain' desire in an alter.

 

For Rene, there is no container; it is wholly free to arise without containment. It is just a matter of Singular/Unity perspective.

 

Just to be fair: I see both sides of this. I think your idea of 'necessary devotion' is very true. How someone defines that may differ. Others may find that devotion as simply their being one with their understanding of Dao.

 

She is not fighting you as much as she is trying to share a holistic perspective she lives; Which is really the same 'ends'. She has founds a more direct and personal path; Directly One with the Great Unity.

 

If I expressed something wrong, I'll have to ask Rene to share.

[sree]

Well, thats a relief, lol. For a while it was like listening to Jesus with soy sauce. I see now that's not the case; Jesus would have welcomed bums and hypocrites. (As would probably most 'Philosophical Daoists')

 

Jesus welcomed sinners but not their sins. This idea that you can waltz through the Pearly Gates barefoot and unwashed is mistaken. You wouldn't get through security (Saint Peter). And who do you think Taoist Hell is for?

 

Even though I am not a Philosophical Daoist, I wish you good luck on your path. Maybe soon you will have followers to stand with you in your cause; or at the very least you are able to let go of your fear of flying alone. (-:

 

Water does not know what water is. You are a philosophical Daoist if there ever was one. There is no escape even in denial.

[dawei]

Jesus welcomed sinners but not their sins.

 

Are you sure about this? Why differentiate it? For one's self-esteem ?

 

Jesus said the tax collectors and prostitutes will enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

For whom was his whip for?

[rene]

dawei, hi

 

On the whole, your take is valid, yet I have no need to promote my perspective; not possible for someone else to have it (we each have our own). Because of it, however, seeing and understanding sree's ideas and desires is simple observation. What i object to is the manner in which sree treats other poster's ideas and energy spent by them responding with their own heartfelt thoughts.

 

An 'occasional' read of this thread may or may not show you what others have seen, and expressed to sree, about their interactions with him which on the whole have been negative. You also may not realize that this thread was started by me to give sree an outlet, a place to explore his own needs (and push his own point), rather than continuing to rudely hijack newTaoist's Home Taoist Altar thread. Sree was also questioned in the thread by a Mod re treating members here in a 'dark manner'; after which sree changed tactics quickly. Here's a recent example:

 

Why does Rene fight me on this? She rejects the altar I feel we need, and she sees my argument for it as insensitive and pose a problem to the status quo for not only traditional Taoism but also to philosophical Daoists of the west.

 

 

If you look at this post of sree's, you'll see that rather than addressing what I said to sree, he instead makes a whole new claim: that I "see sree's argument as insensitive and problematic to the status quo." which is not even close to anything I've ever said. Sree likes to make stuff up, twist meanings, and shows no interest in discussing ideas - only in dismissing them or ignoring what doesn't suit his purpose. Here's a brand new example of the disrespect:

 

 

You are a philosophical Daoist if there ever was one. There is no escape even in denial.

 

 

You'll find alll of the same behaviours in his Tao of Dying thread, and similar reactions by other members who find sree's methods and manner distasteful and hostile, and have told him so, which, it seems, sree thrives on as the behaviour continues, and his replies are even more animated by the flames he causes. As no doubt all this attention now will feed his ego...albiet this would be a small meal, by what appears to be his daily diet requirements.

 

*******

 

sree,

 

I'm sorry that you and I couldn't have had an open and honest conversation. I bet it would have been really good. I noticed your 'game playing' in your first few posts wherein you whined about being 'picked on' and made you "uncomfortable like we didn't want you the same way we wouldn't want blacks and gays". (sniff sniff) Remember that post? You showed your hand too early, with an attempt of an out-of-the-blue politically-correct guilt BS, that you are here posting for far different reasons than you claim.

 

I hope you find your niche here in TaoBums, if that is what you want. I hope you also find a way to let your shields down a bit. There's a lot of love and good heart here in the forum and we all could use some of that, along with a kind word from time to time. You can, of course, choose to continue to shit on those who interact with you... until there is no one left who would take the time to bother. it is beyond me why someone would intentionally drive people away... maybe you were burned too much somewhere to give us a heart-felt chance? Who knows. All I know is I'm done trying.

 

Peace out. (-:

 

 

 

[dawei]

Rene,

 

You probably can clarify many issues to me... as I have chosen to not pay attention to some of the back-and-forth. While I have seen many take opinion at Sree's postings I have not tried to evaluate it all. I have let it go and then jumped back in at times; and maybe I am in the dark. I hear many echoes.

 

To my fault, I have not pay attention to the issues I jump back into. But I like Sree and feel I understand the few messages I see, however on the attack they seem to others. I am detached for now.

 

That Sree keeps talking also tells me that all the TaoBum counter-criticism and abuse does not create too much angst.

 

As is usually: We are more often than not in sync. But I just have not had the energy to see some of the posting issues as I am busy with business travel. So I am glad to get some straight dope from you as I can trust it.

[rene]

David,

 

I'm glad you like Sree; perhaps your friendship will be helpful for him. (-:

 

Take care,

Rene

[sree]

Altars are f*cking pointless, in my opinion. Sure they can allow one to tune back into a certain state of mind or synergy, so to speak.

 

Altars allow Daoists to place food and water offerings for the Three Pure Ones.

 

It's pointless to vote also because the system is broke but we still do it. Take your life for example. Is there a point to it? None, right? But you still live it.

 

But they mean nothing and they only idolize the BS that one can concoct in their brain. You, yes you, are the God numb nuts, the rest is futile. What you do with your time and your day is simply that...

 

Does anything in life mean anything?

 

Reading spiritual philosophy and thinking about this stuff can be fun, but without a sense of self, said person truly being God, you won't realize anything that will move your mind or enlighten your self. You will constantly end up at odds with yourself.

 

Being at odds with each other seem to be the nature of being human. And you are at odds with the altar that we want.

 

If you want an atlar, a temple, etc, look in the mirror. No one can have, change, or desecrate that altar. It is simply yours to do what you may with it.

 

I know what you are saying but why do you think it's wrong to worship a different way?

 

The Three Pure Ones... The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. Hahaha. Look at that parallel.

 

There is no parallel. The Three Pure Ones comes from Chapter 42 of the Tao Te Ching. Christian theology is not like anything in Daoism. But who knows? If you can draw the parallel, I would be most interested in what you have to say.

[sree]

sree, where have you read that you must be Chinese in order to worship the Three Pure Ones? If you have then that source is misinformed. Daoist Westerners have altars for ritual. In fact Deng-Ming Dao the Master and writer has so kindly answered my questions regarding this and is writing a 3 part article on his Facebook page explaining how ANYONE can build an altar and how to use it.

 

Daoism is something that anyone can embrace. Why are you even arguing this point? I find it offensive frankly. Enjoy your day. I don't intend to reply since based on your previous posts all you do is cause trouble and argue.

 

Even if you don't reply, I would still like to speak my mind. I am not forcing my opinion on anybody. Worship at the Chinese Taoist altar if you want. You will neither be the first nor the last westerner to do that.

 

This thread was started by Rene who wanted to move my discussion away from your thread which is about setting up the traditional Taoist altar used by the Chinese. She correctly sensed that I was talking about a different kind of altar which is not the kind of Taoist altar you were looking for.

 

This thread is about my kind of Taoist altar. It is not meant for Chinese Taoism. It is meant for philosophical Daoists in the western world who have internalize their Daoist philosophy and want to experience it empirically in their lives at the physical level. It is obvious to me that doing this in a Chinese Taoist fashion is ridiculous. Living like a duck when you are a goose is unnatural as we are taught by the story about the Ugly Duckling.

 

As you have said, to each his own. I agree with this and wish you well in your worship at your Taoist altar to the Three Pure Ones and the Jade Emperor. Your youtube didn't mention it. You may want to know that in addition to food and water offerings, you can also offer ghost money which is burnt at certain Taoist festivals.

Edited April 30, 2013 by sree