An Altar for Sree

[sree]

Hi Sree,

 

You have strongly advocated an alter for western daoist. What is your suggestion?

 

My first suggestion is not to go Chinese. It would be culturally incorrect. Just because the Chinese got to it first doesn't mean that westerners must imitate them. What happened to American creativity and innovation? Copying the Chinese when they are copying us? My second suggestion is to think this through like those computer geeks in their garages in California back in the sixties on their way to dent the universe.

 

As to the Three Pure Ones: Can a westerner come to understand them and respect them in the way you suggest chinese can?

 

Should a westerner choose one or two or three to their liking?

 

The Chinese took the idea of The Three Pure Ones from Chapter 42 of the Tao Te Ching which (according to Derek Lin) said: "Tao produces one, one produces two, two produces three...." This was discussed at length by you and others in a sub-forum (which seem to have disappeared from this website). Chinese Taoism evolved a long time ago in China and the mythology of that culture in that point in time fashioned the godly symbolism for the Three Pure Ones. Does the philosophical Daoist in Chicago today need figurines of Chinese deities to represent what Chapter 42 says?

 

You ask good questions. If Steve Jobs were alive, he would brainstorm this with us.

 

I am simply curious as to what you would recommend in the end.

 

Good stuck so far.

 

Not me, my friend. We.

[ChiDragon]

FYI: "ghost money"

It is only for the ancestors in the under world to spend.

[sree]

FYI: "ghost money"

 

It is only for the ancestors in the under world to spend.

 

I know. Westerners also have ancestors. They don't have to use fake Chinese ghost money. Fake US Dollars can be used.

 

If they want to embrace Chinese Taoism, they can't pick and choose. That was what I was getting at. If they don't go whole hog, then it isn't really traditional Taoism of which the Chinese religious altar is a part.

[ChiDragon]

..................................................

[sree]

[dawei]

FYI: "ghost money"

 

It is only for the ancestors in the under world to spend.

 

Do you mean there is a corner store to buy bread... and some place to buy a beer... and what else... they want to buy some internet connection?

 

What EXACTLY are they spending on?

[dawei]

Hi Rene,

 

I wanted to give a more personal response:

 

On the whole, your take is valid, yet I have no need to promote my perspective; not possible for someone else to have it (we each have our own). Because of it, however, seeing and understanding sree's ideas and desires is simple observation. What i object to is the manner in which sree treats other poster's ideas and energy spent by them responding with their own heartfelt thoughts.

 

Ok. I hear you. heartfelt response. Maybe Sree's response is also heartfelt. But I get your point.

 

An 'occasional' read of this thread may or may not show you what others have seen, and expressed to sree, about their interactions with him which on the whole have been negative. You also may not realize that this thread was started by me to give sree an outlet, a place to explore his own needs (and push his own point), rather than continuing to rudely hijack newTaoist's Home Taoist Altar thread. Sree was also questioned in the thread by a Mod re treating members here in a 'dark manner'; after which sree changed tactics quickly. Here's a recent example:

 

I know you started this with the right understanding; and rightly so. In fact, you did what very few do: you understood Sree.

 

If you look at this post of sree's, you'll see that rather than addressing what I said to sree, he instead makes a whole new claim: that I "see sree's argument as insensitive and problematic to the status quo." which is not even close to anything I've ever said. Sree likes to make stuff up, twist meanings, and shows no interest in discussing ideas - only in dismissing them or ignoring what doesn't suit his purpose. Here's a brand new example of the disrespect:

 

I am personally making allowance towards an understanding... One needs to really feel the entire person.

 

You'll find alll of the same behaviours in his Tao of Dying thread, and similar reactions by other members who find sree's methods and manner distasteful and hostile, and have told him so, which, it seems, sree thrives on as the behaviour continues, and his replies are even more animated by the flames he causes. As no doubt all this attention now will feed his ego...albiet this would be a small meal, by what appears to be his daily diet requirements.

 

THat may be true. And I don't have the desire to investigate your point; which in fact I accept as I know you enough to present a valid point of view.

 

I have also battled points of view in various websites like this. But I find in Sree a different 'cause'. I can't explain it but that is only my opinion. And I accept your view.

 

 

sree,

 

I'm sorry that you and I couldn't have had an open and honest conversation. I bet it would have been really good. I noticed your 'game playing' in your first few posts wherein you whined about being 'picked on' and made you "uncomfortable like we didn't want you the same way we wouldn't want blacks and gays". (sniff sniff) Remember that post? You showed your hand too early, with an attempt of an out-of-the-blue politically-correct guilt BS, that you are here posting for far different reasons than you claim.

 

I hope you find your niche here in TaoBums, if that is what you want. I hope you also find a way to let your shields down a bit. There's a lot of love and good heart here in the forum and we all could use some of that, along with a kind word from time to time. You can, of course, choose to continue to shit on those who interact with you... until there is no one left who would take the time to bother. it is beyond me why someone would intentionally drive people away... maybe you were burned too much somewhere to give us a heart-felt chance? Who knows. All I know is I'm done trying.

 

Peace out. (-:

 

In general, you are right on... and we can have a hug over this...

 

But the bottom line is this: Is a poster really understood as to their point of view?

 

As time goes on... I find this is the important issue.

[Stosh]

Rarely is there much interest in actually changing a point of view, by anybody, anywhere.

I figure it spawns the 'forsake knowlege' catchphrase.

Generally it requires some sort of emotional 'crisis'

 

Reading this the next day the post to which I responded has a different meaning.

 

So my new answer is , since even the same person has different points of view which do not really agree,

how much more evident would it be for different people, not be really of the same understanding.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Stosh

[ChiDragon]

Do you mean there is a corner store to buy bread... and some place to buy a beer... and what else... they want to buy some internet connection?

 

What EXACTLY are they spending on?

 

Let's put it this way, if you could think of these kind of things, thus that is exactly what the people believe in the Buddhist religion too.

[sree]

FYI "Buddhist religion".

 

Ghost money is only for the Taoist religion.

[Wu Ming Jen]

My Taoist altar has real money from around the world. If anyone needs money they use it. To visually see money in the home symbolizes abundance.I find money around the house and put it on the alter. On Wudang Shan the temples have money all over the place. At Dragon Head incense burner there is a Wishing Bell, you throw coins thru a large chinese coin to hit the bell and make a wish.

 

Tao, yin and yang have many symbolic names the three pure ones is just another symbolic incarnation.

 

Many taoist stories are symbolic in meaning even kids know they are fairy tales. Is a rabbit (yin) really pounding the elixir on the moon (Yin) in the Moon Goddess (female) story That interacts with the archer (male) and can never met? Yin and Yang become separated but are in love in our own bodies / minds and it is tragic if they do not met or are separated.

 

Western interpretation of religious taoism uses its own religious understanding (that is suppose to be real not a fairy tale to explain the system. There are many twisted side roads of taoism which happens when you write stuff down and mimic Buddhist religion.

[sree]

Mr. Wu, are you a Taoist of the Wudang sect?

[zerostao]

some interesting posts by ya'll philosophical taoists

any pioneering will have its growing pains.

one little thing here;

"Taijichuan was not mentioned in the Tao Te Ching."

maybe i read a different translation?

coz the one i read , it mention it

[ChiDragon]

FYI "Buddhist religion".

 

Ghost money is only for the Taoist religion.

 

FYI....

The is no hell in the Taoist religion; only the immortals raise to Heaven. There are hell and heaven in the Buddhist religion.

[ChiDragon]

some interesting posts by ya'll philosophical taoists

any pioneering will have its growing pains.

one little thing here;

"Taijichuan was not mentioned in the Tao Te Ching."

maybe i read a different translation?

coz the one i read , it mention it

 

You are right, the Tao Te Ching had never mentioned Tai Ji Chuan. The one you had read probably somebody misinterpreted.

[zerostao]

ok , maybe never mention it by name..

chapter 10 has taichi written all over it

so does chapter 15

16,

Edited May 2, 2013 by zerostao

[rene]

ok , maybe never mention it by name..

chapter 10 has taichi written all over it

so does chapter 15

16,

 

ttc talks about moving naturally

taiji is moving naturally

 

still...

 

just cause an orange is a fruit

and an apple is a fruit

doesnt mean apple = orange

 

okay, fruit for breakfast, lol

 

warm regards

[dawei]

ok , maybe never mention it by name..

chapter 10 has taichi written all over it

so does chapter 15

16,

 

Of the three, only 16 is in the earliest Guodian bamboo slips... and Ji (極) does not exist. So it would seem most of the idea that might be found in later texts were possibly and simply added later.

 

What is the idea of TaiJi at the time of the Guodian leading up to the next text, Mawangdui?

 

What other ancient text mentions TaiJi anywhere? (or in other words, how did the notion of TaiJi arise)

[sree]

FYI....

The is no hell in the Taoist religion; only the immortals raise to Heaven. There are hell and heaven in the Buddhist religion.

 

What about 閻羅王 and 地獄 ? What about 牛頭 and 馬面 ?

 

In Taoist Hell, there would be enhanced interrogation with tongue-ripping, eye-gouging and heart-digging. We would be stripped naked, boiled in hot oil and forced to climb trees adorned with blades. Finally, we would be disembowelled and sliced in half.

 

孟婆 will then served us her five-flavoured tea before we come back from the under world.

 

This is why I don't understand why westerners would want to worship at traditional Chinese Taoist altars. Philosophical Daoists of the west are much better off coming up with and worshipping at their own Taoist altar without having to face all that gore.

Edited May 2, 2013 by sree

[ChiDragon]

What about 閻羅王 and 地獄 ? What about 牛頭 and 馬面 ?

 

In Taoist Hell, there would be enhanced interrogation with tongue-ripping, eye-gouging and heart-digging. We would be stripped naked, boiled in hot oil and forced to climb trees adorned with blades. Finally, we would be disembowelled and sliced in half.

 

孟婆 will then served us her five-flavoured tea before we come back from the under world.

 

This is why I don't understand why westerners would want to worship at traditional Chinese Taoist altars. Philosophical Daoists of the west are much better off coming up with and worshipping at their own Taoist altar without having to face all that gore.

 

Okay, it is a long story with the hell in Taoism. Let's not go into that right now. But the ghost money part is the best seller to make real money. Why not change the religion beliefs for that....

 

I will worship your Philosophical Taoist altar of the West if, and only if, you tell me what it is........

Edited May 2, 2013 by ChiDragon

[sree]

 

Okay, it is a long story with the hell in Taoism. Let's not go into that right now. But the ghost money part is the best seller to make real money. Why not change the religion beliefs for that....

 

Do you know that burning ghost money and sending the cash to ancestors for them to spend in the underworld is not the only thing Chinese Taoists can do? Mainland Chinese have been sending gifts from this world by burning paper replicas of cars, houses, iPads and iPhones. When it comes to making real money, the Chinese are fast catching up with the Americans.

 

I will worship your Philosophical Taoist altar of the West if, and only if, you tell me what it is........

 

I am still thinking. I see no concept of Hell, an immaterial soul or the afterlife from my reading of the Tao Te Ching. What about you?

 

This Taoist altar has to be consistent with the the way of life a wise person (聖人) lives. This altar will not be appropriate for western atheists who are reading the Tao Te Ching into their beliefs. There are two reasons why that is so. Firstly, life is sacred and the Tao Te Ching speaks to this sacredness that atheism decries. Secondly, philosophy in the western tradition is amoral whereas the Tao Te Ching is a homily of the human saint.

 

What do you say?

Edited May 3, 2013 by sree

[ChiDragon]

Do you know that burning ghost money and sending the cash to ancestors for them to spend in the underworld is not the only thing Chinese Taoists can do? Mainland Chinese have been sending gifts from this world by burning paper replicas of cars, houses, iPads and iPhones. When it comes to making real money, the Chinese are fast catching up with the Americans.

 

I am still thinking. I see no concept of Hell, an immaterial soul or the afterlife from my reading of the Tao Te Ching. What about you?

 

This Taoist altar has to be consistent with the the way of life a wise person (聖人) lives. This altar will not be appropriate for western atheists who are reading the Tao Te Ching into their beliefs. There are two reasons why that is so. Firstly, life is sacred and the Tao Te Ching speaks to this sacredness that atheism decry. Secondly, philosophy in the western tradition is amoral whereas the Tao Te Ching is a homily of the human saint.

 

 

 

What do you say?

 

"Mainland Chinese have been sending gifts from this world by burning paper replicas of cars, houses, iPads and iPhones."

Yes, I do aware of that. It is not just the Mainland Chinese but it is all the Chinese around the world.

 

"I am still thinking. I see no concept of Hell, an immaterial soul or the afterlife from my reading of the Tao Te Ching. What about you?"

Likewise, btw, I am an atheist too. Thus, as a philosophical Taoist, I don't need an altar to be set in my home.

Edited May 2, 2013 by ChiDragon

[zerostao]

ttc talks about moving naturally

taiji is moving naturally

 

still...

 

just cause an orange is a fruit

and an apple is a fruit

doesnt mean apple = orange

 

okay, fruit for breakfast, lol

 

warm regards

 

kindest regards

[ChiDragon]

Now, the orange is an oil lamp......

[zerostao]

Of the three, only 16 is in the earliest Guodian bamboo slips... and Ji (極) does not exist. So it would seem most of the idea that might be found in later texts were possibly and simply added later.

 

What is the idea of TaiJi at the time of the Guodian leading up to the next text, Mawangdui?

 

What other ancient text mentions TaiJi anywhere? (or in other words, how did the notion of TaiJi arise)

thanks dawei, i wasnt aware of how older the Goudian bamboo slips were. i am not any Tao Te Ching scholar. it is still hard for me to imagine that Lao Tzu didnt play with some type of taiji like forms. and how do we really know the exact origins of Taoist Arts. i wont say that i think Lao Tzu was purely some atheist philosopher and that he didnt have anything to do with chi kungs and meditation etc. i think that such a view is likely far away from reality.