Forsake knowledge

[lienshan]

Was Laozi drunk, when he wrote chapter 19, or are Taoist Masters really stupid?

[rene]

Was Laozi drunk, when he wrote chapter 19, or are Taoist Masters really stupid?

 

 

Chapter 19 (F/E)

 

Give up sainthood, renounce wisdom,

And it will be a hundred times better for everyone.

Give up kindness, renounce morality,

And men will rediscover filial piety and love.

Give up ingenuity, renounce profit,

And bandits and thieves will disappear.

 

These three are outward forms alone; they are not sufficient in themselves.

 

It is more important

To see the simplicity,

To realize one's true nature,

To cast off selfishness

And temper desire.

 

My take on that is...

 

the 'inward form' of -

- simplicity is the precursor of sainthood, wisdom;

- realizing one's true nature is the precursor of kindness, morality

- tempering desire/selfishness is the precursor of ingenuity/profit.

 

Staying with the inner forms is easier, closer to the root.

 

Or maybe Laozi was drunk. Either way, pass the wine. (-:

 

warm regards

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Not being able to throw these things away results in attachment. "Know the abundant, but keep to the moderate. (Ch.28)" I don't think the idea is really to completely forsake all knowledge, but simply to have knowledge while being content without it. Not to be without, but beyond them.

[ChiDragon]

Please teach me how to get rid of my wisdom and knowledge. It seems quite possible to you....
Chapter 19
Verbatim translation:
1. 絕聖棄智(jue sheng qi zhi)，
2. 民利百倍(min li bai bei)；

1. Extirpate intelligence discard wisdom,
2. People benefited hundredfold.

Literally, that is what it says in line 1: "Extirpate intelligence discard wisdom,"

Based on this translation, the people will become dummies. Can people really benefited hundredfold.....??? Do you think a wise man with wisdom would have such thought and make such unwise statement....?

If one goes into next next level of thinking, one would see it differently.
1. 絕聖棄智(jue sheng qi zhi)，
聖言(sheng yan2) has a dual meaning:
1. sagely words;
2. pseudo-cleverness(a smart ass).

智(zhi)has a dual meaning:
1. 智慧(zhi hui4): wisdom;
2. 智巧(zhi qiao3): deceitful act with fraud.

The second definitions are the most appropriate translation.
1. Extirpate infallibility discard fraudulence,
2. People benefited hundredfold.

An alternative:
1. Forsake dishonesty discard smugness
2. People benefited hundredfold.

[lienshan]

Beck: discard cleverness

Blackney: Put out the professors!

Bynner: Rid of learning People

Byrn: Forget about knowledge

Chan: discard wisdom

Cleary: abandon knowledge

Crowley: If we forgot our wisdom

Hansen: junk 'wisdom'

LaFargue: throw away "Knowledge"

Legge: If we could discard our wisdom

Lindauer: toss out wisdom

LinYutan: discard knowledge

Mabry: abandon "intelligence"

McDonald: discard knowledge

Merel: If we could discard knowledge

Mitchell: Throw away wisdom

Muller: abandon "wisdom"

Red Pine: Get rid of reason

Ta-Kao: eject wisdom

Walker: Give up knowledge

Wieger: Reject prudence

World: Quit distinguishing the wise and their wisdom

Wu: abandon cleverness

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I think the World translation got it there: "World: Quit distinguishing the wise and their wisdom."

 

it reflects Chapter Three:

(Feng/English)

 

Not exalting the gifted prevents quarreling.
Not collecting treasures prevents stealing.
Not seeing desirable things prevents confusion of the heart.

[lienshan]

Please teach me how to get rid of my wisdom and knowledge. It seems quite possible to you.....

 

wisdom / knowledge

 

If two persons, a wise man and a knowledgeable man, have an identical thought then:

 

The wise man names his own thought knowledgeable and the other person's thought wise.

The knowledgeable man names his own thought wise and the other person's thought knowledgeable.

 

A person can forget his own thought and forsake another person's thought.

A person cannot forsake his own thought and forget another person's thought.

 

There are four possibilities:

 

Forsake knowledge

Forget wisdom

Forsake wisdom

Forget knowledge

[ChiDragon]

lienshan...

 

Forsake knowledge

Forget wisdom

Forsake wisdom

Forget knowledge

For that being said, then how do you justify the following statement.....???
2. People benefited hundredfold.

[DragonsNectar69k]

Knowledge being information found in a book, this is my assumption, forgetting this will result in one needing to learn and experience in their own sense, this will result in forsaking wisdom, because one will have to make mistakes to know what truly works and what doesnt. Tis why i say, there is no Tao but the Tao it self.

[lienshan]

will result in one needing to learn and experience in their own sense, this will result in forsaking wisdom

 

You have convinced me. The meaning of the character within the context is wisdom.

[lienshan]

how do you justify the following statement.....???

2. People benefited hundredfold.

 

What you read as a verb (benefited) was meant to be read as a noun:

 

Laozi used a famous Mozi quote: 民心百倍 the heart-mind of the people hundredfold

but he replaced the graceful 心 heart-mind character with the lousy 利 profit character.

[DragonsNectar69k]

You have convinced me. The meaning of the character within the context is wisdom.

 

Yea I agree. One can be 'book smart', but it does not mean they are wise does it? lolz. It simply means they have filled their minds with the method, tools, and thoughts of others who have came before them.

[lienshan]

One can be 'book smart', but it does not mean they are wise does it?

 

You're smack on! Here's the 'book smart' way of reading the three sentences:

 

Forsake holiness. Reject wisdom. The profit of the people is a hundredfold.

Forsake benevolence. Reject righteousness. The return of the people is filial piety.

Forsake practice. Reject profit. The robbers and thieves disappear.

 

And here's the 'down on earth' way of reading the three sentences:

 

The holiness of forsakenness rejects the wisdom that the people will profit a hundredfold.

The benevolence of forsakenness rejects the righteousness that the people will return to filial piety.

The practice of forsakenness rejects the profit that the thieves will have nothing to rob.

 

I've more problems with modern english grammar than with ancient chinese grammar, so I can ensure you, that both ways of reading the three sentences are grammatical correct. Technically: The second character of each sentence is both a verb and a noun (to forsake/the forsakenness) and likewise the thirdlast characters (to profit/the profit, to return to/the return, to rob/the robbers).

Edited April 25, 2013 by lienshan

[Harmonious Emptiness]

The holiness of forsakenness rejects the wisdom that the people will profit a hundredfold.

I think this would need a 之 between the words to connect their meanings like this.

 

 

 

I like the Guodian version here:

 

絕智棄便，

Break from (do not be attached to) Sagliness, discard/throw away convenience

 

民利百倍。

And the people will profit a hundred fold

 

絕巧棄利，

Do not be attached to cleverness, throw away profit

 

盜賊亡又。

Then bandits and theives will disappear

 

絕偽棄慮，

Break from falseness, throw away worries

 

民復季子

And the people will attend to their familial duties (return to youngest brother).

 

 

(the rest later..)

Edited April 25, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[shanlung]

 

Forsake holiness. Reject wisdom. The profit of the people is a hundredfold.

Forsake benevolence. Reject righteousness. The return of the people is filial piety.

Forsake practice. Reject profit. The robbers and thieves disappear.

 

So should one compete on being wise and wiser and wiserest?

Or even should one be more philosophical and philosophicalrest that thou?

Being wiserest and philosophicalrest and hone the pacifiicer with greatest exactness,will the folks benefit more?

I think the folks will do bestest in laughing at the wiserest and go have a beer or a nice brew of tea.

 

Taking any yardstick meant that yardstick is good only as yardstick and nothing else.

 

Americans kept increasing body counts in the Vietnam War, and I think they lost the war.

 

Bonus galore given to CEOs and Bankers until we the common man got to go bail them out (they kept the bonuses)

 

Sorry...excuse me...

I am just the bloody idiot who know not the wonderous philosophical expertise professed by those who love to dance on soapboxes in crafting the bestest and most impressive of altars.

 

Taoistic Idiot

[lienshan]

So should one compete on being wise and wiser and wiserest?

Or even should one be more philosophical and philosophicalrest that thou?

 

YES ... and thou succeded

 

But thou are still only second to DragonsNectar69k who opened my eyes to read this:

 

Forsake practice. Reject profit. The robbers and thieves disappear.

The practice of forsakenness rejects the profit that the thieves will have nothing to rob.

 

It's the same original chinese characters as in the exavacated Guodian Tao Te Ching.

They can be read both as a statement and as the arguement against that statement.

[lienshan]

I think this would need a 之 between the words to connect their meanings like this.

 

a 之 between the words ( 巧之絕 ) would nomilize the noun 絕 "forsakenness" as the verb 絕 "forsakening"

so one must choose to read it as either a noun or a verb depending of how one read it within the context.

That's the challenge of this chapter! What makes sense and what is nonsense to you as the reader?

To reject wisdom is nonsense to me. Shall I throw Tao Te Ching out of the window?

Edited April 25, 2013 by lienshan

[rene]

Shall I throw Tao Te Ching out of the window?

 

YES!

 

And go outside and play!!

 

[Harmonious Emptiness]

a 之 between the words ( 巧之絕 ) would nomilize the noun 絕 "forsakenness" as the verb 絕 "forsakening"

so one must choose to read it as either a noun or a verb depending of how one read it within the context.

That's the challenge of this chapter! What makes sense and what is nonsense to you as the reader?

To reject wisdom is nonsense to me. Shall I throw Tao Te Ching out of the window?

 

Read the rest of the chapter and read Chapter Three. The phrase needs to be looked at in its context. It's more about flaunting one's goods.

Edited April 25, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[lienshan]

YES!

 

And go outside and play!!

 

I followed your wise advice and went out to play with the bookmaker gambling on some horseraces.

Try guess what he said, you have two possibilities:

 

Either: Forsake holyness!! Reject wisdom!! The win from lienshan is a hundredfold.

Or: Forsake holyness!! Reject wisdom!! lienshan will win a hundredfold.

 

Either: Forsake cleverness !! Reject wins!! Thieves will rob nothing.

Or: Forsake cleverness !! Reject wins!! Thives and robbers will have no existence.

 

The bookie is chinese and therefore a little difficult to understand: 盜賊無有

無 is e.g. either a negative particle (nothing) or a verb (have no existence)

[rene]

 

Maybe what he really said was...

 

More words count less; hold fast to the canter.

 

warm regards (-:

 

[ChiDragon]

 

The bookie is chinese and therefore a little difficult to understand: 盜賊無有

無 is e.g. either a negative particle (nothing) or a verb (have no existence)

 

無有: have not

 

盜賊無有: have no bandits nor thieves.

[idiot_stimpy]

Knowledge can only take you so far before it needs to be let go. The Christ must die in order to be re-born.

[Mikeb85]

Many religious traditions that embrace mysticism have this concept.

 

The idea is that direct experience of the divine is superior to knowledge and wisdom about the divine. The sage isn't a smart or learned man, but one who has directly experienced the divine and understands it.

[lienshan]

direct experience of the divine is superior to knowledge and wisdom about the divine

 

There is not much divine in this chapter, so I don't think that this is Laozi's main target here.

I try show the core of the chapter in the way I read the text:

 

Forsake holiness! Reject wisdom! ........................

Forsake benevolence! Reject righteousness! ..........................

Forsake indigenousness! Reject vantage! ...........................

...................................................................

To regard as matter is to guard as the substance of matter.

Little selfishness is few desires.

 

I've put what isn't matter in bold and not the last word, that I read as meaning "the objects of longing".