Repititions in Forms?

[Eric23]

A real newbie question here. Starting real slow with the Eight Sections of Brochade. I've been doing 6 reps of the Pressing the Heavens for several days now. I'd like to add the Shooting the Arrow soon, and obviously the entire form in it's time. Do I repeat each element 6 times or do the form 6 times? After reading the One Move thread, it seemed like a good idea to get comfortable with each element as I learn the form. Also, there's lots of stuff going on around here so the KISS methodology is applicable at this point in my life. Thanks.

[soaring crane]

<KISS>muiltiple repetitions of one figure before moving to the next</KISS>

Edited February 20, 2007 by soaring crane

[thaddeus]

A real newbie question here. Starting real slow with the Eight Sections of Brochade. I've been doing 6 reps of the Pressing the Heavens for several days now. I'd like to add the Shooting the Arrow soon, and obviously the entire form in it's time. Do I repeat each element 6 times or do the form 6 times? After reading the One Move thread, it seemed like a good idea to get comfortable with each element as I learn the form. Also, there's lots of stuff going on around here so the KISS methodology is applicable at this point in my life. Thanks.

The 8 brocades is a very simple stretching exercise. I'm assuming you're referring to the standing version. Do all 8 moves. Each one is a stretch of a different area of your body. So you need to do all of them. Don't look too deeply into this form. It's an external physical form, just stretch. It comes from the shaolin temple and was designed as a beginner's exercise. Use it as a warm up for your other work.

Have fun!

T

[soaring crane]

I think he was asking - should he do six reps of the first figure followed by six reps of the second figure, then six repetitions of the third, etc., up the eigth figure. Or do six complete run-throughs of the entire form (1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 x 6).

 

The first suggestions is the most effective as only that way can you really deepen your understanding of the exercises and only that way can the movement really deepen itself in you.

 

It's kind of a beginner's routine nowadays but I don't think it was viewed that way at first. There are literally 100s of variations and some are quite complex.

[thaddeus]

I think he was asking - should he do six reps of the first figure followed by six reps of the second figure...

I'm talking off the top of my head, but I think the tradtional way was to do 8 reps of each except for the last one which is 7 bounces..never heard a good reason why the last one is only 7.

Here's what i was taught to concentrate on for stretching:

1st: lengthen torso area (affects triple warmer)

2nd: lengthen Pec area (affects lung)

3rd: lengthen Sides (affects spleen-improve digestion)

4th: between shoulder blades (looking backward-ease bad emotions)

5th: head and tailbone stretch apart (reduce heart fire)

6th: Punching --tense whole body-(makes whole body strong)..but i felt worked liver (angry eyes)

7th: kidney area (forward stretch-focus on that mingmen stretch)

8th: Bounce on heels while rubbing kidney area

 

So, I was taught, the important thing was getting the stretch, not the many nuances of getting there..

T

[soaring crane]

regardles of the number of reps (i tend toward multiples of 3 but I got the 6 from Eric) he's just asking should he do one figure multiple times or do the whole thing one time through and then start over again? (6, 8, or 99 times...).

 

How would you generally practice (any form, not necessarily the 8 Pieces of Brocade)?

[Spectrum]

When I was first learning we would circle up and go through each exercise for a number of repetitions (a weidan chi gung), doing each movement for a few repetitions seqentially, as each movement made better sense, the transitional movements between them began to take shape...

 

You're in a good position to use the 8 brocade as a warmup to any other daily activity, it's a good general form; probably why it's a popular one. It's short, and as soaring crane said there are a lot of variations, of this one, and in chi gung in general. The number of repititions is up to you and your teacher. If no teacher I would experiment with a number in which you "feel" the essense of each movement without losing your flow; then transitioning to the next movement. Less is more; regularity and quality over quantity.

 

When we wake up in the morning we naturally reach our arms out, breath deep and stretch into the day... chi gung is so natural... the sideeffects are limitless.

 

Good training to you!

 

Spectrum

[thaddeus]

How would you generally practice (any form, not necessarily the 8 Pieces of Brocade)?

That's the good question. Actually I've seen and experienced both approaches..I've had taiji teachers who usually run through the whole form and expect you to pick it up. They may do sections at a time, but they won't dwell on a move too much. I personally like to 'get' a move before I move on to the next. However, I've also seen and experienced teachers who milk students this way. I think each approach has it merits and it's faults.

With regards to taichi, it's probably best not to focus too much on one movement in the beginning. Most experts would agree the first step is the choreography, the alphabet, so to speak. You don't want to work too much on the letter A, for example, because you don't really know what you're doing. The basic shape is enought to start. I think one has to pay the dues and muddle through the form the best they can, and then start working on individual moves. And then keep refining it, and then exploring the deeper stuff.

This may sound contradictory to the 'one move' thread, but we're talking beginning stages here. I'm just talking physical gross movement here. A beginner doesn't really know enough to say, practice single whip a thousand times. If anything, it will reinforce a bad habit.

But in any case, my point was that the brocades are not supposed to be exact or complicated. The goal is to stretch the area of focus..so simple a caveman could do it!!

Anyway, that's just my take, take it with a grain of salt...

T

[Eric23]

Thanks to all of you for the response.

[QiDr]

My wife teaches Eight Treasures (generally the same as eight brocade set), her lineage has the sets done in 3, 5, 9, etc. reps. the reason is the same for many Qi Gong forms, the Qi you are trying to manipulate is yang and so you are using yang numbers to enhance the qi movement.

In othr forms, like the Spiral Dragon, the number of reps (21), are correspondent to the number of vertebral spaces you are opening in the form.

In Five Phase Qi Gong it is common to use either reps that correspond to the phase tone or, again, to use the number five as a yang number and the number of phases.

[Eric23]

Now that I've learned the second element, I'm doing 3 reps. Working on learning #3 now. I thought I'd read somewhere that reps are done in muliples of 3 because the TTC has 81 chapters which is the square of 9 which is the square of 3.

[Spectrum]

"the first step is the choreography, the alphabet, so to speak."

 

I've heard two mutually supporting theories here, one that all the moves reference wu ji, and the other that wu ji references all moves. If I'm not mistaken, in the Taoist internal arts these are the manifestations of stillness in motion, and of motion in stillness. A simple personal example is after I get done surfing for a few hours, I still feel like i'm moving even when still, due to the microcirculations of water between wetsuit and body, yet without a center point in which this movement, or movement memory, to orbit, no perception of these subtle circulations would exist.

 

There is a wonderfully strange balance to the spectrum of practices available to the student of internal arts; similar to the space between a walk and a jog. The line is thin, but the gait and stride possibilities endless.

 

The subtle adjustments one makes after learning to flow w/ the form outweigh ANY postural adjustments a teacher could make before this simple landmark in ones practice. Someones own attributes of relaxation (development of Sung; and the importance of doing standing meditation after taiji if your "serious" about cultivation; i.e. WHAT are you cultivating if not the experiences of movement and stillness and the profound effects on mind/body that 30min of moving meditation brings 5 min of stillness. It outweighs any number of corrections to "the stillness in motion" that it seems higher level taiji practitioners look for in form, and I venture you say is one small window into the method and medium in which progress is made.

 

"I personally like to 'get' a move before I move on to the next. However, I've also seen and experienced teachers who milk students this way."

 

Me too. Some type of simple application is nice just to keep the gears turning for understanding why the flow is happening the way it is, learn and forget comes to mind; good body mechanics don't lie. Pushing Hands is good for getting a feel for the movement of momentum that two people create, and the angles involved in deflecting incoming linear forces into curves. Teachers who avoid push hands should be avoided.

 

"has the sets done in 3, 5, 9, etc. reps."

 

Da Liu "Tai Chi Chuan & Meditation" on his chapter on tai chi chuan movments talks about applying the 3 sequenced movements which occur L/R in the Yang 108 to odd numbers between 1-10 to shorten of lengthen the form both in physical space and in time duration. For example the repulse monkey sequence (3) can be shortened to (1) for a smaller space/time or (3-5-7-9) for a larger space/time. If you consider your artform however spontaneous to function in the opening and closing of a mandalistic space; I think this has profound implications for the 'energetics' of practice, paralleling music in compositional nature of the classical forms.

 

Come to think of it standing still at any time during practice is a good thing.

 

Spectrum

Edited February 24, 2007 by Spectrum