What is it that you pursue?

[rainbow]

Hello everyone. I have begun to build up some courage and knowledge and have started to participate a little more on this forum. I am new to Taoism but the philosophies and histories excite me beyond anything else I have encountered in academia. I am in high school so acquiring any sort of teacher of Taoism or qigong is very difficult, especially with sport commitments. I plan on pursuing that this coming summer.

 

Now to my question.

I have read several books on Taoism and the actual goals of Taoism are elusive to me. They vary from immortality to control of consciousness etc. So, what is it, in your opinion that Taoism is. I guess to me its a vehicle for spirituality and understanding. Also, a way of aligning myself with the natural pattern (or lack of pattern) of this world so I am not destroying it, as we seem to be doing as a culture now. I am sort of ranting so I will get to my point, how can Taoists advocate selflessness when their prime mission is cultivation of personal knowledge, chi, etc. Are Taoists interested in helping the world and those around them once enlightened or does their spiritual journeys entail helping others . I am just a bit confused, need a little clarification.

 

An open discussion of what it is exactly that Taoism does for you on a personal level would be interesting.

[soaring crane]

HUGE topic and one that unfortunately leads to some pretty bitter debates and damaged egoes. This forum seems far better than others for discussing this kind of thing, though.

 

I can't hold doctoral dissertations on what Dao means to me and have learned from past experiences that it's better, healthier, when I avoid the conversations.

 

There's actually an answer in there ^ somewhere.

[thaddeus]

how can Taoists advocate selflessness when their prime mission is cultivation of personal knowledge, chi, etc. Are Taoists interested in helping the world and those around them once enlightened or does their spiritual journeys entail helping others .

Cool questions..what's your source on Taoists advocating anything? The way I understand taoist philosophy, there is no for or against.

Cultivating the body is for lengthening the opportunity on earth for achievement.

Good thoughts..

T

[sean]

Self / Other - they are not separate. What I pursue is in a relationship with what is pursued, the environment it is pursued within, the conditions which gave rise to the pursuing. In fact, all of these parts are already whole. Selfishness and altruism are ideologies. What is true?

 

Sean

[Lozen]

Follow your heart; your mind can and will mislead you.

[rainbow]

Wow Sean! Splendid answer!

[Yoda]

the goal is to feel more groovylicious.

[Neijia]

The actual goal is achieving awareness through harmony and self-perfection. These things being cultivated on physical, energetic, and spiritual levels.

Arriving at any state of selflessness requires one to dismember and eventually discard the ego. Piece by bitter piece. The ego is the true obstacle to advancement... assuming that's what you mean by selfless. If you mean charity and good will, then that's something else, and open to interpretation.

As far as teaching others... that's up to you, but I don't think you can avoid it if you're serious about your cultivation.

[voice]

Arriving at any state of selflessness requires one to dismember and eventually discard the ego. Piece by bitter piece.

 

NO! NO! NO! NO!

 

I mean, uhm, I disagree.

 

My training with Winn is not to discard the ego, but to expand my self to come into communication with all beings and all fields of energy, in all levels of being. As the sense of self shifts from this tiny body, it no longer has the need to crystalize itself into some distinct ego. Well, an ego is still needed for this later heaven life, but the sense of self does not identify itself solely with that ego.

 

So, nothing to discard, just more and more to eat. Some of it is bitter, but much is sweet...and there have been some salty bits, and that one thing tasted so much like chocolate-of-heaven flowers...

 

Chris

[thelerner]

I've given up my search for absolute enlightenment (not that I know what it is). I'm seeking the Western form of enlightenment which I consider truly enjoying who you are and what you do. (making steady progress). Physical enlightenment, meaning my esoteric energy systems are flowing strongly (slow progress). Psychological enlightenment, meaning being totally in the now, reduced or no ego (making slow progress).

 

From an alchemical taoist point of view I want to feel the sun in heart and hear it sing. Feel the Oceans in my belly, the green of spring in my right side, clarity of winter in my left. To experience within my physical microcosm is the macrocosm of the universe and hear/feel its song. (slow but steady progress).

 

I wrote down when I retired 2 years ago that my goal was superior health and happiness. I'm bunny hopping towards them.

 

da da da da da ta da da da da dah, da da da da da da dadada

 

Michael

[Wayfarer64]

The variety of answers sort of speaks for itself.

 

Each of us have a purpose and a way to be ourselves. To be in our own Tao as it were, while cultivation is expanding awareness and development of our energies to become one with the natural world by developing a greater awareness of, & ability to manifest, our path as part of it. And to realize that it will always be changing! That is cyclical in nature but also linear as a moment by moment progress...

 

There are the three basic levels of being, Kharma, Artha, and Dharma. Each level has requirements that need to be met and lessons to be learned. We each have a path to walk that all lead back to the source of our being, or the Tao. So it is natural that we are each at different points of awareness and levels of intent etc...

 

It is bewildering that the Tao is everything and also the source of everything and the result of everything and it is always changing. And even that does not begin to touch on it.

 

So for me it is now just a way to find some peace in the world. A quiet spot to grow older and wiser and let the world do its spinning. But that may not be my fate, I may end up livin' large as an entertainment mogul in China...Who Knows? Karma is real to me and I know that I can not avoid the path I am meant to take, just as the Earth has its groove in the fabric of space/time, we each have an orbit to live within.

 

Most of life is a surprise and we need to be adjustable to the possibilities. I find the Yi Jing has always been a big help for me to calm my center and get a grip on the changes as they are predicted and arise...This is the root of my Taoist sense of being.

 

Linking to the wider world as a whole being aware and contented to be just a mere particle of life in the vast ocean of flux and energy and yes the Pattern of life that is spreading across the expanding vastness of cosmic time and space...

 

Our possibilities are boundless, and remain so as long as we open ourselves to life's changing ways and find a way to be ourselves amid the amazing organic oneness of it all...Blending ourselves into the dance,with the whole of existance as our partner. In such ways our orbits may expand and we grow as beings.

 

The more we take in and make our own the more we become a part of the wider world, be it qigong or hatha yaoga or stillness meditation or learning how to play a musical instrument or making love, cooking and eating... its all a part of our being in the Tao.

 

Enjoy and reflect, suffer and grow, staying aware and in the moment. This reality is an amazing gift to share !

[Ian]

NO! NO! NO! NO!

 

I mean, uhm, I disagree.

 

My training with Winn is not to discard the ego, but to expand my self to come into communication with all beings and all fields of energy, in all levels of being. As the sense of self shifts from this tiny body, it no longer has the need to crystalize itself into some distinct ego. Well, an ego is still needed for this later heaven life, but the sense of self does not identify itself solely with that ego.

 

So, nothing to discard, just more and more to eat. Some of it is bitter, but much is sweet...and there have been some salty bits, and that one thing tasted so much like chocolate-of-heaven flowers...

 

Chris

 

I think you're talking about the same thing. To eat, i.e. absorb, i.e. become one with a greater field, does that not require you to drop much of what has caused you to be, or consider yourself, small and separate? And is that not a definition of ego?

 

Sounds like a question of emphasis to me.

[freeform]

my answer is: to become whole.

 

what's needed for this to happen is different for each person - there are over 6 billion paths to wholeness... whether through martial arts or charity or living in a cave or becoming a cult leader or having a large family.

 

ofcourse my answer is a rather silly one, because we already are whole... we're just having a human experience to find out how to bring this wholeness to the human level. For me Taoism is very experimental, and if you follow your heart you'll find yourself making goals and then changing them - that's fine.

 

when the mind (ego) gets involved in goals, things become a little hairy - I find it's best to assume that ego is an obstacle course - giving us exactly the obstacles we need to progress on our spiritual journey to wholness.

[rex]

I'm into enlightened self interest and look to benefit self and other. How can you benefit self and other if you're not sorted in the first place?

[Neijia]

I think you're talking about the same thing. To eat, i.e. absorb, i.e. become one with a greater field, does that not require you to drop much of what has caused you to be, or consider yourself, small and separate? And is that not a definition of ego?

 

Sounds like a question of emphasis to me.

 

yeah

 

Ego is the dividing gulf standing between any one person and another, a fence between the self and the rest of the world.. A person's small ideas about themself, and others, being something that has come together and formed for the purposes of survival. And besides that... not, to sound too Siddhartha (or Tyler Durden), you are not your car, bank account, the contents of your wallet, or even the configuration of prejudices and thoughts that make up your psyche.

As for discarding the ego, I don't believe you can simply reach out for the universe, in any disciplined and genuine way, without first having changed - if, nothing else, just your mind.

Edited February 22, 2007 by Neijia

[SifuPhil]

Rainbow - congratulations on the beginning of your journey!

 

As you might guess from the wide range of answers here, there ARE no answers as such. Rather, it's an individual path that you follow in taoism, guided only occasionally by those who have tread the Way previously.

 

You need to be clear on at least one point, in my opinion - are you following taoism as a religion or as a philosophy? The two, although sharing many elements, are also divergent enough to cause mega-headaches.

 

Read, read and re-read the classics - adapt them to YOUR lifestyle - don't let anyone tell you what you should be aiming for, because only YOU know that. Listen to opinions, but see them as merely that - opinions. Seek knowledge but don't bow down to it. Question it. Fight it. See if it stands up to the crucible of real life.

 

And perhaps something that has deeply affected my life - realize that everything is constantly changing...

 

Good luck!

[forestofsouls]

Self / Other - they are not separate. What I pursue is in a relationship with what is pursued, the environment it is pursued within, the conditions which gave rise to the pursuing. In fact, all of these parts are already whole. Selfishness and altruism are ideologies. What is true?

 

Do you [not just Sean here, just using this as a jumping point) really believe that there is no separation between yourself and the other?

 

I've always had trouble with this. In my field of perception, I am at the center, you at at the periphery. My thoughts swirl about this center, but your thoughts are unknown to me. I have no face, but I see your face clearly. Some one hits you, I don't feel your physical pain. We may stand on the same ground and breath the same air, but are we REALLY the same?

[KnightoftheBlackRose]

I can only speak on this subject in the lightest of terms as I myself am not Taoist

 

I feel that what I have learned of Tao is that it is much like Philosophy as a whole, it is not the answer or conclusion that is important it is the journey. We must take what we have gone through and what others have gone through and learn from it and apply that knowledge to the world as a whole. There are no true right or wrong answers only different points of view based on personal experience.

 

As far as your other commitments, especially the sports, you should look deeper into them and realize what it is you are really taking from them and giving into them. They should be part of your journey not something that gets in the way.

 

But as I have said I have less right to speak on this subject than most so please take my humble opinions with a grain of salt.

[seadog]

Many intresting answers here.I have what I believe.To truly know what it is that you believe you bacially have to scare the shit out of yourself.When you find yourself in a position were you could die then your true self appears.All the layers are stripped away and truest sense of who you are is revealed. Never underestimate the value of primal fear in helping you to find the way.

[freeform]

Do you [not just Sean here, just using this as a jumping point) really believe that there is no separation between yourself and the other?

 

It's interesting that you say when someone is hurt you dont feel their pain... I think it's quite common to wince when your friend stubbs her toe or when someone loses an object and looks for it frantically I often feel the same frantic energy... In fact neurologists identified something called mirror neurons - their purpose is to allow you to recreate feelings that other people have... ever yawned after someone yawned in front of you? ever laughed just because someone else laughed?...

 

I remember seeing a program following a study on this effect - they would show subjects videos of people yawning and see how many times the subjects yawned... not many... then they would have actual people in the room yawning and the subjects yawned much more frequently.

 

on a more esoteric level: from the words you use, forestofsouls, it seems you try to see a connection with people from your head (upper dan tien) which isn't likely to work... when you move your attention down to your heart (middle DT) this connection is obvious (at least for me - anyone else?)... it's more of a feeling than a thought or idea... try sitting opposite someone and both of you lower your attention to your hearts - interesting things happen - often breathing patterns between you two align, posture is similar, even blinking... often emotions will surface which can put you off, but if you stick with being aware from your heart you'll soon feel a connection to people around you (the news becomes a little hard to digest at this point).

[Ian]

It's interesting that you say when someone is hurt you dont feel their pain... I think it's quite common to wince when your friend stubbs her toe or when someone loses an object and looks for it frantically

 

Yes. My impression is that I have comparatively little connection to the rest of creation, but even so I find myself with a sort of "bone shudder" at even a verbal description of a third party hurting themselves.

 

Incidentally, when you put your attention in your heart, for example, to what extent does your attention actually leave the castle behind your eyes?

[freeform]

.

Edited December 18, 2019 by freeform

[forestofsouls]

It's interesting that you say when someone is hurt you dont feel their pain... I think it's quite common to wince when your friend stubbs her toe or when someone loses an object and looks for it frantically I often feel the same frantic energy...

 

on a more esoteric level: from the words you use, forestofsouls, it seems you try to see a connection with people from your head (upper dan tien) which isn't likely to work... when you move your attention down to your heart (middle DT) this connection is obvious (at least for me - anyone else?)...

 

Yes, you may feel sympathy, or sympathetic pain, but its not THEIR pain its MY pain. I may feel sorry for some one who has just lost their mother, for instance, but this doesn't mean I feel as they feel.

 

Interesting point re: dan tiens. I'll have to experiment with that.

[freeform]

Yes, you may feel sympathy, or sympathetic pain, but its not THEIR pain its MY pain. I may feel sorry for some one who has just lost their mother, for instance, but this doesn't mean I feel as they feel.

 

I'm not really talking about sympathy or feeling sorry for... that's a mental creation... what I'm talking about is a simple physical reaction - have you ever watched Jackass or a horror movie or a friend take a painfull blow to the nuts? what happened in your body seeing any of these?

 

By the way going deep into the middle dan tien reveals this wholeness quite beautifully... I dont feel like an individual but a collective life-force... hard to explain, but easy to feel (once you get used to being aware from the heart).

[QiDr]

The immortality/longevity issue is simply an extention of life span so one can get from here to there in this lifetime.

"There" is what the ancients termed "Sageliness" which is a fully realized integration with ones self and the universe.

There is nothing wrong with the Ego, self awareness keeps you from running into walls and tripping over things. The idea, over time, is to develope enlightened self interest wich is the precourser to enlightenment.

But, hey, you're seventeen or eighteen years old, you shouldn't be worrying about this stuff, you should be getting into some good, hard martial arts like Kung Fu or Tae Kwon Do.

You are at the peak of your yang energy and should be actuallizing that.

Plenty of time for sageliness when you have more milage.