How to translate 夫?

[sufidao]

I've seen so many translations of Old and Classical Chinese texts simply ignore the character 夫, while in Daoist texts one may encounter a statement like "夫道者" which obviously is not ignorable.

 

Considering contents of the texts, I've guessed these as translation:

"O friends!"
"Therefore"
"As a fact"

 

But none can be supported by dictionaries.

 

How should we translate the character 夫 used separated, for example, before a comma at the beginning of a sentence?

[dawei]

Here is a very useful website for looking at word combinations and usage:

 

 

http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Lindict/

[sufidao]

I've checked the website and almost all other useful websites and dictionaries but I've not found my answer, that's why am asking here

Edited April 29, 2013 by sufidao

[Harmonious Emptiness]

So,

 

So consider [maybe],

 

 

Man, so like...

[dawei]

Here was the relevant section I found:

 

(LL beginning sentences and opening generalizations) now, as regards: 夫仁者 now (as regards) 仁;

 

夫道若大路然 now the Way (Tao) is like a broad highway;
夫何憂何懼 now what is there to worry about? 夫如此，夫如是 only so;
夫豈不知 now don’t I (dosen't he) know? 夫既如此 now that it is so;
that being so;
夫唯不爭，故… it is because he does not contend, therefore…;

 

 

From: A Concise Grammar of Classical Chinese

 

fū 夫 (M. 1908) Noun: "man."

when pronounced fú, it may have the following meanings:

Demonstrative pronoun: "that one, he."

Introductory particle to indicate a topic: "[As for, regarding] that one . . . "

Fú may be combined with hé 何, giiving fú hé 夫 何 which means "whatever, however," &c.

Final particle: "is it not?" (like the French n'est-ce pas?). In this last use it represents a fusion of bu 不 and hū 乎, and does not represent an development of fū (man) or fú (he, that one.)

 

 

Alquiros notes as an example for DDJ8:

13. 夫 (initial particle) also: above all, because / vor allem (darüber hinaus), weil; here: 夫唯 for only (just) / denn nur (gerade).

[sufidao]

Thanks Dawei,
It helped me a lot. Consequently when it is used at the beginning of a sentence, it is a grammatical particle, not to refer to a reality. Now, I wonder how it is interpreted in a classical Chinese text like this:

 

人得一為大，大得一為天，超出天外，方為夫字。

 

http://www.26869273.idv.tw/13bible/htmlpage10.htm

[ChiDragon]

I've seen so many translations of Old and Classical Chinese texts simply ignore the character 夫, while in Daoist texts one may encounter a statement like "夫道者" which obviously is not ignorable.

 

Considering contents of the texts, I've guessed these as translation:

"O friends!"

"Therefore"

"As a fact"

 

But none can be supported by dictionaries.

 

How should we translate the character 夫 used separated, for example, before a comma at the beginning of a sentence?

 

In classic, 夫 was used as an auxiliary word at the beginning of a sentence or phrase to make the phrase sound better or to draw someone's attention.

 

"夫道者" is similar to "ah! a virtuous person.....".

 

When "夫" was place at the end of a phrase or sentence, it is equivalent to an exclamation "!" mark.

Edited April 29, 2013 by ChiDragon

[sufidao]

Thanks ChiDragon, But:

 

Consequently when it is used at the beginning of a sentence, it is a grammatical particle, not to refer to a reality. Now, I wonder how it is interpreted in a classical Chinese text like this:

 

人得一為大，大得一為天，超出天外，方為夫字。

 

http://www.26869273.idv.tw/13bible/htmlpage10.htm

[ChiDragon]

Thanks Dawei,

It helped me a lot. Consequently when it is used at the beginning of a sentence, it is a grammatical particle, not to refer to a reality. Now, I wonder how it is interpreted in a classical Chinese text like this:

 

人得一為大，大得一為天，超出天外，方為夫字。

 

http://www.26869273.idv.tw/13bible/htmlpage10.htm

 

sifudao....

What you have referenced is a Taoist classic which is so esoteric. It may be ineffable to us ordinary human beings.

 

Original:

註：夫，人神好清者，一陰一陽乃為人，人得一為大，大得一為天，超出天外，方為夫字。

 

Interpretation:

解：人在後天本是陰陽混合之體，此色身得一，即得先天氣，就是大，大仍是人，只是色身日壯，陰氣日消，陽氣日長，大又得一先天氣，即小天地與大天地之元始始氣合為一體，若是煉神還虛，煉虛合道，就能超出三界外，不在五行中，就是超出天外，就是夫。

 

Translation of the interpretation:

The human body, in the post-natal phase, was the combination of the yin-yang, thus the body was said to be obtained "unity" which is the pre-natal Chi. It is great, great then it is human, but the body is getting strong everyday, the Yin Chi was diminishing, and the Yang Chi is increasing, great(human) also gained the pre-natal Chi, which are the combination of the original chi of the little and big universes integrated as one body. If one practice the "shen return to the void", practice "void united with Tao", then one can transcend beyond the three realms, not within the Five Elements, thus it was transcended beyond Heaven, thus this is a man.

 

[sufidao]

Thanks again,

 

The Interpretation is quite deep and it seems that the author is well versed in Daoism. Please, let me know, whose writing is this and where can I find the complete text of the interpretation for this chapter and the rest?

 

* I'm not a sifu, but a sufi

[ChiDragon]

Sufidao.....
You welcome...!!!

I had googled this particular section. The translation of the interpretation was done by yours truly. I don't think that you can find a good translation for the complete text, not in English anyway. What you can do is post anything that you want it to be translated or interpreted. I am glad to be at your service.....

[sufidao]

That was a good translation, but the link to the Chinese text would be sufficient for the time being.

[dynamictao]

Thanks Dawei,

It helped me a lot. Consequently when it is used at the beginning of a sentence, it is a grammatical particle, not to refer to a reality. Now, I wonder how it is interpreted in a classical Chinese text like this:

 

人得一為大，大得一為天，超出天外，方為夫字。

 

http://www.26869273.idv.tw/13bible/htmlpage10.htm

 

This is my take. Very interesting sequences: roughly

 

What is a gentleman (Fu)?

Man attains Oneness to have "Significance (Da)";

Significance attains Oneness to become with "Heaven";

Only if it can be beyond Heaven,

It is (the word for ) a trule "gentleman."

 

Gentleman -> Fu-tzu ->Sage?

Edited April 30, 2013 by dynamictao

[hydrogen]

Thanks Dawei,

It helped me a lot. Consequently when it is used at the beginning of a sentence, it is a grammatical particle, not to refer to a reality. Now, I wonder how it is interpreted in a classical Chinese text like this:

 

人得一為大，大得一為天，超出天外，方為夫字。

 

http://www.26869273.idv.tw/13bible/htmlpage10.htm

 

I think the "fu" in this context is related to tao idea of "realized human" or "real man".

 

It may be the same stage as "awakened" in Buddhist. The "immortal" is the same as the "enlightened".

[sufidao]

This is my take. Very interesting sequences: roughly

 

What is a gentleman (Fu)?

Man attains Oneness to have "Significance (Da)";

Significance attains Oneness to become with "Heaven";

Only if it can be beyond Heaven,

It is (the word for ) a trule "gentleman."

 

Gentleman -> Fu-tzu ->Sage?

 

 

I think the "fu" in this context is related to tao idea of "realized human" or "real man".

 

It may be the same stage as "awakened" in Buddhist. The "immortal" is the same as the "enlightened".

 

That's right. Surely, Fu is interpreted as "Universal Man" in that text, but the problem is that in the main text it's but a grammatical particle.

 

夫，人神好清；而心擾之。

 

Anyway, in olden times language was not as dead as today to be understood mechanically.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I think a large part of the meaning comes from the image of a man as being authoritative and knowing what he's talking about, so it implies this to whatever follows, just as "thus" or "so" but more like "note" since it might not tie the preceding thought to the proceeding. "Now" probably has closest flow in English when appearing at the beginning. There are other words that do this at the end of the sentence, to say that what was said was of substantial import, but FU this starts the sentence that way rather than tying it up at the end that way.

 

I sort of reminds me of how French people often start a sentence as "Me, I like to.../Moi, j'aime..." The first "Me" is redundant but it focuses the discussion to the new subject of discussion. So again, "now" seems to be the best English translation.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[dynamictao]

That's right. Surely, Fu is interpreted as "Universal Man" in that text, but the problem is that in the main text it's but a grammatical particle.

 

夫，人神好清；而心擾之。

 

Anyway, in olden times language was not as dead as today to be understood mechanically.

In this case, "Fu" is not the same as the earlier use of "Fu."

I would take this one to mean "Because", "The truth is", etc.

 

"The spirit of man prefers tranquility, but is disturbed by our mind." (roughly)

 

Same character with two meanings in two separate use. Both should be valid.

 

.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I noticed that a lot of paragraphs in Charles Luk's translation of The Platform Sutra start with "Learned Gentlemen, ..." as a way of addressing the audience. I'm not sure if this is because of FU appearing, however.

[sufidao]

I noticed that a lot of paragraphs in Charles Luk's translation of The Platform Sutra start with "Learned Gentlemen, ..." as a way of addressing the audience. I'm not sure if this is because of FU appearing, however.

 

Lots of thanks to you,

Here is the text: http://philosophy.sysu.edu.cn/jdjsx/info_Print.asp?ArticleID=383

And it's full of "凡夫", usually at the beginning of sentences. If the mentioned translation is available online, please share the link with us too.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Lots of thanks to you,

Here is the text: http://philosophy.sysu.edu.cn/jdjsx/info_Print.asp?ArticleID=383

And it's full of "凡夫", usually at the beginning of sentences. If the mentioned translation is available online, please share the link with us too.

 

Ha, Nice!

 

I don't know of links. Found the book used for a steal before finding out it's worth (first print hardcover, 1962). There are 3 paperback editions available for $30 right now on Amazon which normally go for upwards of $100

[Harmonious Emptiness]

On second thought, now that I take a look at the text, I see what Luk translates as (actually) "learned friends" is the frequent appearance of 善知識! at the start of paragraphs.

 

As in:

 

 

"善知識!道須通流....

 

師示衆云：善知識!一行三昧者....

 

善知識!定惠猶如何等？...."

Edited May 4, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[ChiDragon]

Lots of thanks to you,

Here is the text: http://philosophy.sysu.edu.cn/jdjsx/info_Print.asp?ArticleID=383

And it's full of "凡夫", usually at the beginning of sentences. If the mentioned translation is available online, please share the link with us too.

 

"凡夫": ordinary man,

 

Copy 凡夫 and paste it into the window in the site below.

 

Chinese translation into English

[Walker]

When used at the start of a sentence in classical Chinese, 夫 almost always is a particle (also called "empty word/function word/form word" in English and 虚字/虚词 in Chinese) which has no direct translation into English.

 

Various sources agree that it is used when a new subject is being elucidated. For example, the excellent 《规范》 English-Chinese Chinese-English dictionary that Pleco software uses states:

 

 

3. {particle} a. (used at the beginning of a sentence to introduce a new subject)

 

夫人必自侮而后人侮之。

fu ren bi zi wu erhou ren wu zhi

A man must despise himself before others will.

 

Similarly, the 《新华字典》 tells us:

 

 

夫3

（1）

用于句首，有提示作用

夫秦有虎狼之心。--《史记-项羽本径》

 

I offer my translation of the above quote: "used at the beginning of sentences, fu has the function of pointing out/prompting." The sentence in the third line, which the 《新华字典》 uses by way of example, could be translated as, "the people of Qin [one of the Warring States] have hearts like tigers and wolves."

 

Note that in both the translation provided by 《规范》 and the one I made from the example in《新华字典》, 夫 is not translated.

 

Luckily, we can also use ancient dictionaries to find definitions for word usages from ancient times. Thus, if one consults the 《康熙字典》(compiled during the Qing dynasty) one finds amongst the numerous definitions for 夫 the following:

 

 

又【廣韻】防無切【集韻】【韻會】馮無切【正韻】逢夫切，音扶。語端辭。

 

This passage tells us that it was recorded in four important dictionaries, namely the《广韵》, 《集韵》, 《韵会》, and 《正韵》, that 夫 was a word used to start (端) discourse (语).

 

As for the second part,

 

Thanks Dawei,
It helped me a lot. Consequently when it is used at the beginning of a sentence, it is a grammatical particle, not to refer to a reality. Now, I wonder how it is interpreted in a classical Chinese text like this:

 

人得一為大，大得一為天，超出天外，方為夫字。

 

Here we are being given a definition of the word 夫 that I have never seen in any dictionary and which can be understood as an explanation of 夫 as a heiroglyph with a relationship to Daoist cultivation. First things first, as to why this particular definition does not show up in, for example, the 《康熙字典》, I will say that what this sentence presents is probably a relatively obscure and perhaps even contentious usage of 夫. Daoist definitions of words do make it into the 《康熙字典》, but from what I have seen, they almost all come from "mainstream" texts like Laozi, Zhuangzi, Liezi, or Ge Hong's Baopuzi, and not from little-known alchemical works. Confucian word uses are much, much more common in the 《康熙字典》, and in the Confucian tradition, the word 夫 refers to teachers. Thus, Confucius himself is given the title "孔老夫子."

 

Anyway, to understand that we are talking about a heiroglyphic interpretation of the characters here, it is helpful to view the four in question side-by-side, to see how similar they are:

 

人 大 天 夫

 

This sentence describes the unfolding of an individual's change during the process of Daoist cultivation. The changes are represented first by the addition of two horizontal lines, turning 人 into 大 and then into 天 and finally by the addition of one vertical line, turning 天 into 夫). Hence, the explanation, which ChiDragon was kind enough to provide, although I am afraid his translation leaves out a number of very important key points. I have thus provided my own translation, adding color every time one of the horizontal and vertial lines appears:

 

解 Explanation：

 

人在後天本是陰陽混合之體，At the postnatal (后天) level, humans are fundamentally a body of mixed yin and yang

 

此色身得一，When this form body (色身--similar or the same as this Buddhist usage: "色身 rūpakāya. The physical body, as contrasted with the 法身 dharmakāya, the immaterial, spiritual, or immortal body.") obtains the one

 

即得先天氣，It obtains primordial/prenatal (先天) qi

 

就是大，So it is great,

 

大仍是人，Though great, still a human,

 

只是色身日壯，It is only the form body daily becoming stronger

 

陰氣日消，Yin qi vanishing day-by-day

 

陽氣日長，Yang qi increasing/growing day-by-day

 

大又得一先天氣，When the great again obtains one primordial qi

即小天地與大天地之元始始氣合為一體，It is the small heaven and earth (ie, microcosm) and great heaven and earth's (ie, macrocosm) primordial initial qi (原始始气) combining into a single body

 

若是煉神還虛，If one cultivates spirit to return to emptiness

 

煉虛合道，And cultivates emptiness to join with the Dao

 

就能超出三界外，One is then able to exceed beyond the three realms/worlds

 

Note: the three worlds are sometimes synonymous in Daoism and Buddhism, and sometimes not. In Buddhism they refer to the mortal realms of desire, form, and formless. However, sometimes for Daoists the 三界 can refer to the three realms of form (形), qi, and spirit (神), the latter of which is immortal.

 

不在五行中，Not being within the five phases

 

就是超出天外，Is exceeding beyond the heavens

 

就是夫。Is fu.

 

So in the above we see that the horizontal lines representing "obtaining" the one appear first, giving us the character for heaven; finally, when one cultivates to such a high level that one is no longer in the three realms, then one obtains a vertical line, indicating a very profound transcendence, true immortality in both a Daoist and Buddhist sense.

 

I do not know for sure, but I suppose that the character 夫, understood in this sense, could be used as an honorific title for Daoist immortals, though I can't recall ever seeing it be used that way. All in all, the very esoteric and informative use of the word 夫 from the quoted passage has (probably) very little to do with the particle 夫 used at the beginning of sentences.

 

Two final notes, 夫 originally depicts a grown-up man (大) with a long hairpin stuck through his topknot.

 

Secondly, yes, 凡夫 means "ordinary man," but it is used in religious contexts to provide contrast to a human who has had spiritual awakening or who is perhaps a descended heavenly being.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Walker

[ChiDragon]

Secondly, yes, 凡夫 means "ordinary man," but it is also used in religious contexts to provide contrast to a human who has had spiritual awakening or who is perhaps a descended heavenly being.

From a religious point of view and linguistically, you are correct.......

Edited June 4, 2013 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

又【廣韻】防無切【集韻】【韻會】馮無切【正韻】逢夫切，音扶。語端辭。

 

 

FYI the character "切" is an indication of how the 夫 is pronounced by the combined sounds of the two preceding characters.

【廣韻】, 【集韻】, 【韻會】and 【正韻】 are four ways to pronounce it.

 

【集韻】【韻會】馮無切 indicates these pronunciations(in blue) are pronounced the same as in red.

 

 

語端: either end of a sentence/phrase, example, 夫 may be used at the beginning or the end of a sentence or phrase.

 

語端辭: means that the character was to be placed at either end of the sentence.

 

 

Edited June 4, 2013 by ChiDragon