Would not be sufficient cause for the path to exist

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Just wanted to reorder this translation which is usually rendered: "if he didn't laugh it wouldn't be the Way"

 

This is mistranslation and possible misunderstanding. It would still be the Way.

 

 

literal wXw:

 

下士聞道大笑之

low student hears Dao great laughter

不笑不足以為道

not laugh not sufficient cause make/wei path/dao

 

 

 

 

proper translation/understanding, in my estimation:

 

下士聞道大笑之

The inferior student hears Dao and roars with laughter

不笑不足以為道

If he didn't laugh there would not be sufficient cause to make a path of wisdom and virtue.

 

 

 

ne l'oubliez pas!

Edited April 29, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[ChiDragon]

不笑不足以為道
If he didn't laugh, then, it is not good enough to be Tao.

Edited April 29, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

不笑不足以為道

If he didn't laugh, then, it is not good enough to be Tao.

 

Though all translations may be admissible, the context would appear to dictate "wei" as meaning "make" here, rather than "be."

[ChiDragon]

 

Though all translations may be admissible, the context would appear to dictate "wei" as meaning "make" here, rather than "be."

 

The compound characters: 以為 will make it to mean as "to be".

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

The compound characters: 以為 will make it to mean as "to be".

 

Not sure where you're getting that from, as I see that the compound "以為" means "to believe," creating "not laugh, not sufficient to believe dao."

 

However, if we assume the compound characters were actually 足+以 we get "so much so that, sufficient to" then we have

 

不笑不足以為道

didn't laugh, not sufficient to make a path of wisdom and virtue

 

"sufficient to" here means the same in English as "sufficient reason/ sufficient cause" which, interestingly, goes to show how these words came from the same ideas and are used with the same use of synonym articles.

[ChiDragon]

It is hard to find something for you. Here is a good translation for 以為 which meant "to be".
http://chezcindyblog.blogspot.com/2012/08/without-laughter-tao-exit-no-where.html

If there were no laughter,

the Tao would not be what it is.

不笑，不足以為道。

In the mean time, I am still looking for a good reference for you.

Edited to add:

Here is another one.
http://www.travel-silkroad.com/english/daodejing/text2.htm

 

第 二 课 闻 道

shang shi wen dao qin er xing zhi zhong shi wen dao ruo cun ruo
上 士 闻 [道]， 勤 而 行 之； 中 士 闻 [道]， 若 存 若
wang xia shi wen dao da xiao zhi bu xiao bu zu yi wei dao you
亡； 下 士 闻 [道]， 大 笑 之。 不 笑， 不 足 以 为 [道]。 有
jian yan zhe ming dao ruo mei jin dao ruo tui yi dao ruo dui shang
建 言 者： 明 [道] 若 昧， 进 [道] 若 退， 夷 [道] 若 堆。 上
de ruo gu da bai ruo ru guang de ruo bu zu jian de ruo yu zhi
[德] 若 谷， 大 白 若 辱， 广 [德] 若 不 足， 建 [德] 若 欲, 质
zhen ruo chu da fang ruo zu da qi wan cheng da yin xi sheng da
真 若 储。 大 方 若 足，大 器 晚 成， 大 音 希 声， 大
xiang wu xing dao que wu ming fu wei dao zhe shan shi qie shan cheng
象 无 形。 道 却 无 名。 夫 唯 [道] 者， 善 始 且 善 成。

Lesson two After Hearing the Explanation of the Dao

After hearing the explanation of the Dao, the best man begins to cultivate himself assiduously; the average man sometimes believes it and sometimes doubts it; the worst man bursts into laughter. If the worst man does not laugh, it can not be the Dao. He who likes to talk behind others' backs says: All who have a clear un-derstanding of the Dao are ignorant; all that make progress in their cultivation retrogress. Those who begin to cultivate themselves will meet many obstacles. Those of noble character and high prestige are judged as sunken in the abyss. Those free from any wrongdoing are subjected to indignities. The more virtuous, the more deficient one will feel. Virtues built (accumulated) by one will be regarded as but selfish desires, but they can be stored in the soul forever. Only generosity can satisfy people. The largest instrument must be fin-ished with care and precision. The greatest sound is seldom heard. The greatest image is often unseen. So the Dao is indeed too difficult to be defined by any name. One training his soul must start well and end well.

Edited April 29, 2013 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

https://sites.google.com/a/savantas.org/slaa/community/francis-li-chung-hung-li-zong-hong
1) “‘Not Laugh, Not be Tao’: The Application of Tao Te Ching in the Drawings of Yue Minjun” (「不笑不足以為道」

[ChiDragon]

Here is a good reference for definition of 以為

以為 = to be under the impression

以為 used as "to be" - 人情以為田

Edited April 29, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Thanks for the discussion Qi Long; it's been informative.

 

 

而

 

Here is a good reference for definition of 以為

not sure why you used the link that has "to believe / to think / to consider / to be under the impression" .

 

以為 = to be under the impression

以為 used as "to be" - 人情以為田

Thanks for the website/resource!

 

However, you'll see there that the examples for 以為 show it to mean "believe"

And you'll that the examples for 足以 show it to mean "sufficient to"

 

two selections from these pages (not meant to implicate anybody, lol):

 

1) "自以為是 assumes he is right" (believe)

 

2) "不足以當大事 unworthy of great responsibilities" (in-sufficient)

Edited April 29, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[ChiDragon]

Thanks for the discussion Qi Long; it's been informative.

***not sure why you used the link that has "to believe / to think / to consider / to be under the impression" .

 

 

two selections from these pages (not meant to implicate anybody, lol):

 

1) "自以為是 assumes he is right" (believe)

*** It was for checking on you to see if you are conscientious....... :D

 

1) 自以為是 can be defined with one English word "dogmatic"

[dawei]

If I understand the subtle difference going on here... it is like this:

 

1. Laughter means Dao already exists (to be, as in a cause of the laughter)

2. Laughter means a cause to show Dao exists

 

this passage often makes me think of Zen laughter... where the laughter is Zen itself...

[Harmonious Emptiness]

If I understand the subtle difference going on here... it is like this:

 

1. Laughter means Dao already exists (to be, as in a cause of the laughter)

2. Laughter means a cause to show Dao exists

 

this passage often makes me think of Zen laughter... where the laughter is Zen itself...

 

I've thought it could possibly appear to mean "not laugh: not sufficient 以為conviction in Dao" which would support what you're saying there.

 

You know, as I read the chapter more, lol, I really think you're right!

 

 

I haven't worked on this chapter and was just looking the line, which appears to follow the ideas in Chapter 27:

 

是 以 聖 人 常 善 救 人 ，

In this way the wise, of unrelenting virtue, rescue people

故 無 棄 人 ﹔

Therefore nobody is abandoned

常 善 救 物 ，

Unrelenting virtue saves things

故 無 棄 物 。

Therefore nothing is abandoned

是 謂 襲 明 。

This is called “clothing illumination”

故 善 人 者 ，

Therefore men who seek to live by perfection

不 善 人 之 師 ﹔

Are models for those who do not seek to live by perfection

不 善 人 者 ，

Those who do not seek perfection

善 人 之 資 。

Are valued as assets by those who seek perfection

 

(my translation)

[Harmonious Emptiness]

On further contemplation, I think there are at least 2 if not 3 entendres here.

 

1) the low student laughs, but that is why the path is needed

2) the crazy perfection of the Dao causes people to laugh

3) the sage is also the low student

 

 

as I would have seen were I looking at the entire chapter, number 3 is perhaps the main point, as shown by the lines

 

"Therefore there is the established saying: "Who understands Tao seems dull of comprehension; Who is advance in Tao seems to slip backwards; Who moves on the even Tao (Path) seems to go up and down." (- Lin Yutang trans.)

[ChiDragon]

http://故 善 人 者 ，

Therefore men who seek to live by perfection

It seems to me this line need to look into more deeply for an accurate translation.....!!!

[ChiDragon]

故: therefor
善: kind
人: person
者，those who

故 善 人 者 ，不 善 人 之 師 ﹔
Therefore, those people who are kind, can be the model/teacher of the unkind people.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

故 善 人 者 ，

Therefore men who seek to live by perfection

 

It seems to me this line need to look into more deeply for an accurate translation.....!!!

 

Context speaks louder than words in the DDJ. Why is he writing this chapter? To teach people how to seek perfection.

 

So then who is he speaking of? The people who seek to live by perfection.

 

故: therefor

善: kind

人: person

者，those who

 

故 善 人 者 ，不 善 人 之 師 ﹔

Therefore, those people who are kind, can be the model/teacher of the unkind people.

 

The kindness and perfection of character are both implied. The context of the entire chapter shows that kindness is an obvious necessity for perfection. This is more than just simple kindness.

 

See this link if you need proof that this character speaks more to perfection than simply kindness. Remember, in Daoisim, morals are only needed when true virtue is lost. Kindness is a lesser moral. With perfection, kindness is not a moral action, it's just part of the perfection.

 

 

edit: search for 善 at that link as I can't link directly to the word reference there.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[ChiDragon]

善人: kind person; Philanthropis

Ref:
善人

[Harmonious Emptiness]

善人: kind person; Philanthropis

 

Ref:

善人

 

 

 

Google translate is the authority for Classical Chinese now?

 

When I say perfect, I mean perfect of character -- this implies philanthrophy, as does the chapter, but I'm translating from the bigger picture which would be footnoted in general, so thanks for bringing that out here too.

 

So again, it can also mean good man, but my intention is to show what the words mean, rather than just what they say. Of course this would require footnotes or commentary to show how the original words mean this, but word for word translations can be more easily misunderstood than translating it with perspective and foonotes.

[ChiDragon]

Google translate is the authority for Classical Chinese now?

 

No, it is only translate the meaning of the characters. FYI Most modern dictionaries do not indicate the characters are classic or not. It is up to the obligation of the reader to determine for their meanings and applications within context.

 

If I put a space in between 善 人, then you will get "good man".

 

A good man

 

 

PS....

A good man may not be kind. But

A kind man is always good.

Edited May 2, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Okay well, since the TTC study section is a complete loss right now for finding chapters.. let's take a look at it here.

 

Chapter 27 starts by looking at the word shan in many contexts, all of which refer to doing something perfectly: perfect walking, perfect tying, perfect closing, perfect speech, and perfect counting. The descriptions of these things show how they are done with perfection, not really how they are done with kindness.

 

Then the the shan ren is looked at and tied to the way of the wise man. The reason I translate shan ren as "men who seek perfection" is to tie in all the ideas of the chapter. I understand this is not word for word, but I'm not writing the translation for people to compare dictionary definitions, rather, I'm trying to show what is implied by the words. This is the whole reason for me writing any translations is to show the colour given to different words by their placement in the chapters since much is easily looked over when these inferences are not drawn out for the reader in English. These are things that I could see when looking at the Chinese text that I didn't catch when reading the more or less word for word translations.

 

For me, the reason for translating is to show what other translations do not. There are plenty of definition matching type translations, but they do not help the reader draw the connections that appear in the terse style of the text. These chapters are like good photographs: the different things happening there affect the way the others appear. If this is not shown, it is easily overlooked, especially by English speakers I would say, since most English writing is very linear and direct, so I know as an English speaker the way that these things will usually be read, and what will be missed if it is not made more explicit.

 

I think the trouble you are usually having with my translations is that they don't match the way a Chinese person would translate them. However, the end result of the ideas are the same, just that the words being used are slightly different in a way that means the same thing to English readers, though unfortunately perhaps some non-English raised readers will not see that these things can/do mean the same things in English as the direct meanings of the Chinese.

 

This may be the case, however, why cater to the understanding of native speakers when they could just go ahead and read it in Chinese? So we may have many a disagreement like this, but I really don't mind because it shows me the perspective of the scholarly style.

[ChiDragon]

I think the trouble you are usually having with my translations is that they don't match the way a Chinese person would translate them. However, the end result of the ideas are the same, just that the words being used are slightly different in a way that means the same thing to English readers, though unfortunately perhaps some non-English raised readers will not see that these things can/do mean the same things in English as the direct meanings of the Chinese.

 

 

I know what you are saying, that was what the westerner translators had been telling me. I just I wish I can accept that but it's still doesn't hold water in logical thinking nor in a scholarly manner. I don't think it was a matter who read it but what was the original meaning of the text regardless what language was written in nor who to you read it to.

 

故 善 人 者 ，

1. Therefore, those people who are kind,

2. Therefore men who seek to live by perfection

 

I cannot accept that line 2 is a translation of the classic text because it is not what it says. Now, what is wrong by telling to all what it means. What should I tell the Chinese one thing; and then tell the westerners something else or tell them what they want to hear instead of the true meaning. It just doesn't make sense at all.

Edited May 2, 2013 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

The reason I translate shan ren as "men who seek perfection" is to tie in all the ideas of the chapter. I understand this is not word for word, but I'm not writing the translation for people to compare dictionary definitions, rather, I'm trying to show what is implied by the words. This is the whole reason for me writing any translations is to show the colour given to different words by their placement in the chapters since much is easily looked over when these inferences are not drawn out for the reader in English. These are things that I could see when looking at the Chinese text that I didn't catch when reading the more or less word for word translations.

 

For what it is worth: I have come to the same conclusion in reading some sections. As the word means 'skill', what did it mean to have skill in very ancient times; 300 BC? This is not about a trade or job; it was the sage or true man... which is to say what? The doctor... was original a diviner and shaman. They were spoken of as "skilled"... thus "good" at what they can attain or do.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

I know what you are saying, that was what the westerner translators had been telling me. I just I wish I can accept that but it's still doesn't hold water in logical thinking nor in a scholarly manner. I don't think it was a matter who read it but what was the original meaning of the text regardless what language was written in nor who to you read it to.

 

故 善 人 者 ，

1. Therefore, those people who are kind,

2. Therefore men who seek to live by perfection

 

I cannot accept that line 2 is a translation of the classic text because it is not what it says. Now, what is wrong by telling to all what it means. What should I tell the Chinese one thing; and then tell the westerners something else or tell them what they want to hear instead of the true meaning. It just doesn't make sense at all.

 

Well, sorry man, but I think it comes down to an appreciation of poetic circular logic and inference, which exists in all languages, and was of a particular style in the Dao De Jing, which all the "official, correct, definitions" of words cannot grasp by themselves. If this is all you're looking at, then, as they say, "you're gong to miss the forest for staring at the trees" (which by the way is not the literal way that saying goes either, but I added "staring at" to the phrase to help you get it).

[Harmonious Emptiness]

They were spoken of as "skilled"... thus "good" at what they can attain or do.

 

Absolutely. This is akin to a gong-fu of sagehood. Like gong-fu, heng means endurance (in addition to other things).

 

是 以 聖 人 常 善 救 人

In this way, the wise, of unrelenting virtue, save people

 

 

Here again, 是 以 doesn't mean literally "in this way" but it doesn't hurt to remind the reader that there is a tie between the former and latter. The poetry of this chapter is not about how to tie, shut, count, speak, etc., but how the sage of unrelenting virtue saves people using these skills.

 

now here is the poetic imagery of this part. Why should we assume that such a profound text would put such seemingly random descriptions in advance of otherwise unrelated revelations? There is a reason for doing these things in the text and this is what I hope to help clarify by translating this way:

 

my translations}

 

 

 

善 行 無 轍 跡 ，

Perfect walking leaves no trail of footprints

(the person being influenced does not know he is being influenced)

 

善 言 無 瑕 謫 ﹔

Perfect speech is not tainted with accusations

(the sage does not use accusations to bring about the change)

 

善 數 不 用 籌 策 ﹔

Perfect counting does not use counting devices

(the sage knows intuitively what needs to be added and subtracted)

 

善 閉 無 關 楗 而 不 可 開 ，

Perfect closing requires no locks yet the seal cannot be broken

(he does not force the person to change, yet the change is profound and enduring)

 

善 結 無 繩 約 而 不 可 解

Perfect binding requires no rope to secure it, yet cannot be unbound

(the sage does not need to force the person to listen for their words will be held precious)

 

是 以 聖 人 常 善 救 人 ，

In this way the wise, of unrelenting virtue, rescue people

 

 

(minor edits to intro paragraphs)

Edited May 3, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[dawei]

是 以 聖 人 常 善 救 人 ，

In this way the wise, of unrelenting virtue, rescue people

 

I'll give you a few comments on my research on Heng:

1. The Yijing and the Classic of Poetry usage of Heng seem to drive most of the translations of Heng as enduring, long, eternal, etc.

2. But these already shift from its most ancient use in divining (shamanism) and cosmology. The Chu script for Heng has two lines (heaven and earth) with a [crescent] moon 夕 or 月 [classic of poetry conveys this] and divination 卜.

3. Heng appears to maybe be an original meaning akin to Ji (極); Think TaiJi and WuJi. Another cosmology angle.

 

Based on how it is used in divination and cosmology, anciently Heng means something akin to: Fullness; Completeness; Oneness; Ultimate; True; Authentic; Essence.

 

If one is looking at a Guodian Bamboo chapter (16,32,37,46,59,64), then I would recommend one of these meanings above. If it is a Mawangdui version which added 13 more chapters with Heng (only 3 words occur more often: Wu, Dao, De), then the meaning has already loosened a little bit. After Heng is replaced by Chang due to the Emperor name taboo, it has essentially lost its original meaning and Chang has lost most of its original meaning too.

 

I think Sarah Allen said it best: “Chang and Heng became irretrievably confused after the reign of Liu Heng”.