Animal Flesh and the Fall of Man.

[Stosh]

There's no guilt, nor shame, nor desire to feel superior... just seeing something wrong and don't take a role in it.It's that simple.It's possible to live a healthy life without meat and enjoying palatable dishes at the same time. If you feel that it's ok to threat animals in that way because, as my grandmother said "They're made by God so that we can eat them"... then there's nothing that I can add.Just a question out of personal curiosity, do you practice some form of meditation/qigong/etc.. ? I think that it's just a matter of a inner sense of respect for life: he feels that there's something wrong in that system of slaughtering, hormones, low cost hamburgers, illness and over-consumption of meat.But if others feel a deep sense of gratitude and respect for that... well, we humans are really curious

I guess you are at least moving into the bargaining stage of grief , but after the guilt trip , and plain ol nasty vids it doesn't sound legitimate. You made argument that seemed convincing to YOU, and it consisted of fantasy relationships of leopards compassion. And we were treated to the halal version of preparing cows for consumption to lay-on the guilt trip you feel'should' be convincing.

Now you make a straw man argument , that god made animals for us to eat. And tthen make an attempt to twist the argument from it isn't moral to eat meat as in the term

FALL ,

To it is just a reasonable choice in the light of your personal warmth toward animals.

The argument was, that animals were people, but if people ate animals they weren't good people. I have been said to be without feeling essentially heartless.

 

You need to take back the vids , admit they are a shameful bid at a guilt trp, and then I could believe that you are making your argument from a detached rational standpoint.

[Stosh]

In everything, treat others as you would want them to treat youSays it best I guess.

Still making christian argument ? Even so , That refers -to people towards people. Christianity isn't making a statement about how to regard ones food. ( and neither does it do so in the reputed confucian version. )You are still making the same error of equating yourself with an animal , humans are animals plus an abstract mind sentient, and therefore special.

And I repeat if humans are no better than animals, we can guiltlessly eat animals like they do. If we are better tha beasts we can still eat beasts and still not be cannibals.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Stosh

[baiqi]

Have you heard about holocaust? The guy who behind it, Adolf Hitler was a vegetarian.

Always the same BS...Sorry, I've heard this a 1000 times, and no, he wasn't. Check your sources again, please.

 

But, yeah, some vegetarians are bad people. Not as bad as Adolph, but I prefer the company of some omnivores than some vegetarians for sure. So what？ People can be vegetarians without thinking "ethics" for one second.

 

About guilt: guilt is bad when you don't do anything about it. If you stay with your guilt all your life, that's terrible. However feeling bad when you watch such videos (or, as in my case,when you see this right in front of you) is perfectly normal.

 

So...yes I want you to feel guilty for all that, YOU are part this. But I want you to be guilty just for a few moments, long enough to think: "OK what can I do to change this situation, at my own level?" , and act accordingly.

 

 

Then you can (and should) be peaceful again.

[Cheshire Cat]

I guess you are at least moving into the bargaining stage of grief , but after the guilt trip , and plain ol nasty vids it doesn't sound legitimate. You made argument that seemed convincing to YOU, and it consisted of fantasy relationships of leopards compassion. And we were treated to the halal version of preparing cows for consumption to lay-on the guilt trip you feel'should' be convincing.

Now you make a straw man argument , that god made animals for us to eat. And tthen make an attempt to twist the argument from it isn't moral to eat meat as in the term

FALL ,

To it is just a reasonable choice in the light of your personal warmth toward animals.

The argument was, that animals were people, but if people ate animals they weren't good people. I have been said to be without feeling essentially heartless.

 

You need to take back the vids , admit they are a shameful bid at a guilt trp, and then I could believe that you are making your argument from a detached rational standpoint.

 

I admit they are a shameful bid at a guilt trp, and now you could believe that I'm making my argument from a detached rational standpoint.

 

Now please, tell me... do you practice some form of meditation/qigong/etc.. ?

[Jetsun]

In many forms of Tibetan Buddhism eating meat is required to form the Tantric drops which are required for higher practice, which are the same drops you can often find in high masters cremation ashes, so rather than meat causing the fall of man in that system it is what leads to the rise of man towards enlightenment and higher evolution.

[eye_of_the_storm]

Why does the origin of this sentence matter?

"In everything, treat others as you would want them to treat you"

There is a lot of wisdom in the Bible.

There are some things I disagree with but I won't dismiss the entire thing... regarding a good number of things.

Do you have pets? lived with animals before?

I remember a comedian... his girlfriend bought a dog, he never had a dog before and resented this thing forced upon him initially... he said no matter how much he tried to dislike the dog it was impossible... being welcomed so joyously, so energetically every time he came home. He and the dog became good friends.

Dogs I think are Buddhas.

Maybe a Dog would open your heart.

I have seen notable changes in behavior towards animals when people have stopped eating meat.

+ Bonded with animals.

I guess you have heard of spirit guides and totems?

Reminds me of stories of Buddhas disguising themselves as beggars or animals etc as a way of teaching people.

... / do you really know what you are interacting with?

Some native cultures refer to some plants as "Master Teachers"

I don't see myself any greater than any other animal.

You seem to have this hierarchy with humanity on top? Appearances can be deceiving.

 

The highest goodness is like water, for water is excellent in benefiting all things, and it does not strive. It occupies the lowest place, which men abhor. And therefore it is near akin to Tao.

Edited May 3, 2013 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Cheshire Cat]

In many forms of Tibetan Buddhism eating meat is required to form the Tantric drops which are required for higher practice, which are the same drops you can often find in high masters cremation ashes, so rather than meat causing the fall of man in that system it is what leads to the rise of man towards enlightenment and higher evolution.

 

I've heard that certain vajrayana masters know the way in which by eating an animal they can bless him so that he can be reborn in an higher realm and receive Dharma teachings. Basically, this should be to offer the food to the Bodhisattva/Buddha and thus bless the animal.

 

Maybe there's some ritual significance, but I doubt that there's some definite "yogic need" to consume meat... otherwise hundreds of vegetarian yogis of india should be considered inferior in understanding to the tibetans

[Stosh]

The hilter argument doesn't hold water but wanting others to feel bad until they agree with your own personal righteousness based argument isn't what tao is about.

You can have your own bias, but you should understand that it is only that, your personal bias.Which makes your hostile wish for guilt of others rather disgusting- in my own biased opinion.

WWROA and DRT are also making intolerant and ugly argument , again in the misguided attempt to force your' compassion 'down other peoples throat.

Remove the sefrighteous stance, and you no longer need to have others comply with your personal fantasies that you know what is right and wrong.

 

[eye_of_the_storm]

Its about awareness...nothing more.

[eye_of_the_storm]

Eating meat is violent, is that not self evident?

[eye_of_the_storm]

Here is a pretty funny article

"Men think eating meat makes them more manly"

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2236768/New-study-shows-men-think-eating-steak-burgers-bacon-makes-manly.html

Edited May 3, 2013 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Stosh]

I admit they are a shameful bid at a guilt trp, and now you could believe that I'm making my argument from a detached rational standpoint. Now please, tell me... do you practice some form of meditation/qigong/etc.. ?

yes but I don't meditate on compassion to"drive the paradigm into my own thick skull" because that compassion isn't based on doing things that work out well, kind, harmonious. Feeling without doing leaves the kindness in a situation of fantasy.

Jumping away from the guilt trip does allow more respect for your argument. But I doubt you have abandoned the selfrighteous stace that eating meat is causal or resultant from the FALL OF MAN.

Well see as we go on and it should become clear.

[Stosh]

Its about awareness...nothing more.

Untrue, till now it has been about guilt trips.

[Stosh]

Eating meat is violent, is that not self evident?

Killing the meat is indeed violent, waves can toss violently but there is no wrong in it.

[Marblehead]

Eating meat is violent, is that not self evident?

No. It is the manner in which the animal is killed for consumption that is sometimes violent.

[Stosh]

Why does the origin of this sentence matter?"In everything, treat others as you would want them to treat you"There is a lot of wisdom in the Bible.There are some things I disagree with but I won't dismiss the entire thing... regarding a good number of things.Do you have pets? lived with animals before?I remember a comedian... his girlfriend bought a dog, he never had a dog before and resented this thing forced upon him initially... he said no matter how much he tried to dislike the dog it was impossible... being welcomed so joyously, so energetically every time he came home. He and the dog became good friends.Dogs I think are Buddhas.Maybe a Dog would open your heart.I have seen notable changes in behavior towards animals when people have stopped eating meat. + Bonded with animals.I guess you have heard of spirit guides and totems?Reminds me of stories of Buddhas disguising themselves as beggars or animals etc as a way of teaching people.... / do you really know what you are interacting with?Some native cultures refer to some plants as "Master Teachers"I don't see myself any greater than any other animal.You seem to have this hierarchy with humanity on top? Appearances can be deceiving.

I would rather not bible or buddhist bash , but I can take only portions as valid.

[eye_of_the_storm]

You feel guilty because you are now aware... that your actions are causing great suffering.

Granted that specific video is about ritual animal sacrifice (Kosher/ Halal) ... but these are becoming standard practices in a lot of places.

+ Other methods are less cruel but still unnecessary.

[eye_of_the_storm]

The Animal Abuse-Human Violence Connection

http://www.paws.org/human-violence-connection.html

///

Vegan Diet Impacts California Prison

San Bernardino County, CA — In the late 90’s, amid rising crime rates and finite lockup space, the private prison industry was looking like a pretty lucrative business opportunity for anyone who could take advantage. Having received a dire report from Georgia-based prison design firm Rosser International Inc., San Bernardino County was expecting a shortfall in inmate beds and a doubling of their inmate population by the year 2020. Against this background, the County began accepting bids for a 500-inmate private prison.

Terry Mooreland, CEO of Maranatha Private Corrections LLC was among the individuals who bid on the project. There was only one catch. Mooreland’s bid included a stipulation that if he was awarded the bid, inmates serving sentences at his facility would be offered a vegan diet.

As fate would have it, Mooreland won the bid and in 1997 began to build what became the Victor Valley Medium Community Correctional Facility in Adelanto, California; which is about 120 miles northeast of Los Angeles. Once operational, this facility saw remarkable results for seven years, before a dispute over inmate phone revenue led the State of California to cancel their contract with Mooreland.

It is unbelievable that something as silly as phone revenue could cause a State to end one of the most remarkable prison success programs in the country, where inmates got out and stayed out. At the time, the State of California had a recidivism rate of 95%. This is the percentage of former prisoners who are rearrested. The Victor Valley facility enjoyed a recidivism rate of less than 2%.

So, what was the key factor behind this success? A vegan diet.

Upon arrival, new inmates attended an orientation where they received two clear choices. They could live on one side of the prison which operated using the standard California Department of Corrections (CDC) guidelines and food menus; or, they could live on the side of the prison operated under the “NEWSTART” program which included a vegan diet, bible studies, job training and anger management.

In a video-taped interview obtained by Vegetarian Spotlight, Victor Valley nutrition services coordinator Julianne Aranda explains that “what we eat not only affects us physically, but it affects our mental attitude, our aggressiveness and our ability to make good decisions”. In interview after interview it was clear that the NEWSTART program staff was in agreement that the mind and body must be cleaned up in order for the inmates to achieve positive behavioral changes.

Initially, although the State of California was very supportive of the NEWSTART concept, they told Moorland they didn’t believe that even five inmates (of the 500) would accept that kind of a diet. In fact, they told Moorland that inmates would probably “burn the place down before they became vegetarians”. However, once the program was in progress, the opposite became true. On average, 85% of the inmates chose the NEWSTART side while only 15% chose the CDC program.

The remarkable behavioral changes could even be seen outside in the prison yard where according to prison officials, nobody “owned” or controlled the yard. Typical lines drawn between blacks, whites, hispanics, gang members and other groups were non existent. On the NEWSTART side, everyone played basketball together and had great fellowship. The CDC side of the house had the same racial divisions experienced at any other prison.

In testimonials, inmates assert that the surprisingly good-tasting food led them to feel better, have greater energy, increased stamina and reduced problems with acne. Indeed the effectiveness of a vegan vegetarian diet in rehabilitation has been scientifically validated.

Although the State of California apparently preferred to pursue phone revenue over rehabilitated inmates, the success of the Victor Valley facility gives us something to think about. Could this kind of a diet help us in raising our children?

Edited May 3, 2013 by White Wolf Running On Air

[eye_of_the_storm]

http://suprememastertv.com/ve/?wr_id=131&page=1#v

^ cool video (positives)

Spirited Actress & Dancer Tonya Kay: Connecting with Oneself through Raw Veganism

(no I am not raw vegan, I guess that is the aim... need to stop making excuses really)

Edited May 3, 2013 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Stosh]

You feel guilty because you are now aware... that your actions are causing great suffering.

 

Granted that specific video is about ritual animal sacrifice (Kosher/ Halal) ... but these are becoming standard practices in a lot of places.

 

+ Other methods are less cruel but still unnecessary.

In the wild ocean, fish get swallowed alive and wriggling

I go fishing , I put those beautiful pompano on ice, and they slowly go to a sleep from which they never wake up.

Would you eat those?

[Stosh]

Here is a pretty funny article

 

"Men think eating meat makes them more manly"

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2236768/New-study-shows-men-think-eating-steak-burgers-bacon-makes-manly.html

Yes men are more associated with hunting and the significance of meat.

And some folks abuse animals as a prelude to being violent to other people True true true

personally the chick who hides behind a fake aura of salad eating is annoying

I had sisters I remember them eating - they didnt live on salad alone and liked bacon as much as I did.

But folks have lots of ideas they would be better off losing .

 

The idea that 'my' spiritual beliefs and customs are 'righter' than yours

requires some objective standpoint to anchor it.

 

Those who believe in Gods have an anchored perspective on their morality

this is what the anchors look like

 

 

 

God says its Ok to eat any meat

God says its bad to eat any meat

God says you shouldnt eat red meat on sundays

God says its ok to eat meat but not cows

god says its Ok to eat cows but not pigs

god says its ok to eat fish with scales ,but not fish without scales

god says its only ok to eat meat killed halal so the thing doesnt suffer needlessly

and so forth

 

Getting a kick out of suffering , beast or human , is a perversion

and feeds back negatively on society. This is the reason why abuse

is made taboo. It is a practical stance driven in with the

emotional weaponry called guilt.

 

But tao suggests that there is no perspective from which

one can derive the moral and righteous anchors

that cause folks to intrude on one another.

 

Maturely considering ones food as an adult does (or should)

doesnt require guilt as a motivational enforcer.

 

Eat whatever the heck you are comfortable with eating is what I say

I just say it doesnt make you better- more compassionate -right.

[eye_of_the_storm]

What are you thoughts regarding the prison?

[Stosh]

Ok Ill bite ,

" What prison ?"

the tragic prison of my narrow world view?

[Marblehead]

Ok Ill bite ,

" What prison ?"

the tragic prison of my narrow world view?

Hehehe. You jumped right into that pile of stuff! You didn't even need to get pushed.

[Stosh]

Fools go where angels fear to tread.