Animal Flesh and the Fall of Man.

[baiqi]

http://www.dailymail...akes-manly.html

 

Oh yeah, I knew it. Mike Tyson is gay, and I would easily beat him.

 

You can do a lot of stupid things just to prove you're a "real man". This is one of them.

There was some truth when we were hunters/gatherers maybe. But nowadays? Buying a piece of an animal bred/ killed for you in exchange of some money? I don't see "virility" here.

[Cheshire Cat]

yes but I don't meditate on compassion to"drive the paradigm into my own thick skull" because that compassion isn't based on doing things that work out well, kind, harmonious. Feeling without doing leaves the kindness in a situation of fantasy. Jumping away from the guilt trip does allow more respect for your argument. But I doubt you have abandoned the selfrighteous stace that eating meat is causal or resultant from the FALL OF MAN. Well see as we go on and it should become clear.

 

I don't believe that eating meat is in any way connected to the FALL OF MAN (whatever this thing is), but I do believe that the systematical massacre that happens in the slaughter houses shows the horrible disrespect of this society towards life.

This is the main line in my posts.

 

Hence, I didn't show the "compassion of big cats", but the inherent honor and grace in the natural process of killing in nature that involves acts of compassion. There's individual suffering, but you know predators serve the preys in limiting their number and safeguarding the vegetables that they meat.

This is balance and harmony. Individual suffering is natural.

 

In a slaughter houses there's a collective suffering, artificially kept to sustain unhealthy habits of weak humans.

To sustain this unnatural thing, greedy men introduced chemicals to make big money... and this causes all sort of illness.

How do we serve the animals in our slaughter houses? By providing a life of suffering and an horrible death?

There's no balance nor harmony in this.

 

Hence, this system cannot self-sustain and we have chemicals, hormones and a bunch of health problems.

All kind of bad things come from this systematical slaughtering from the destruction of forests to Monsanto...

 

If you don't eat meat, you're not compassionate... but intelligent at the very least.

[Stosh]

If you don't eat meat, you're not compassionate... but intelligent at the very least.

Well lets just say there isnt an inherent connection

between the compassion that one can have

and the food they consume

because I think thats what you are meaning.

 

Which would leave us two in agreement

on the great majority of points made.

 

Now If we could just get WWROA to come down from the mountaintop ...

Edited May 3, 2013 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

I don't believe that eating meat is in any way connected to the FALL OF MAN ...

You guys may have fallen but I am still standing even though I am often a little bent over from age.

[eye_of_the_storm]

Regarding the "Fall of Man"

* "During the reign of Emperor Cheng of the Han, hunters in the Zhongnan Mountains saw a person who wore no clothes, his body covered with black hair. Upon seeing this person, the hunters wanted to pursue and capture him, but the person leapt over gullies and valleys as if in flight, and so could not be overtaken. [but after being surrounded and captured, it was discovered this person was a 200 plus year old woman, who had once been a concubine of Qin Emperor Ziying. When he had surrendered to the 'invaders of the east', she fled into the mountains where she learned to subside on 'the resin and nuts of pines' from an old man. Afterwards, this diet 'enabled [her] to feel neither hunger nor thirst; in winter [she] was not cold, in summer [she] was not hot.']

The hunters took the woman back in. They offered her grain to eat. When she first smelled the stink of grain, she vomited, and only after several days could she tolerate it. After little more than two years of this [diet], her body hair fell out; she turned old and died. Had she not been caught by men, she would have become a transcendent." (Campany 2002)

http://thetaobums.com/topic/24484-yoked-to-earth-a-treatise-on-corpse-demons-and-bigu/

This is regarding grains... her diet was vegan.

 

Early Taoist diets were very different from present-day ones. While present-day Taoist diets call for eating many grains, some ancient diets called for bigu 辟穀 "abstention from grains". This was because early Taoists believed the rotting of the grains in the intestines attracted demonic creatures known as the 'three worms.' These demons loved eating decaying matter in the intestines in the hope that they could kill the person and devour his corpse.^[1]

Some Taoists advocated eliminating many foods from their diet. This position might have resulted from a mythological vision of an early "golden age" where humanity did not need to eat at all. An early Taoist text, the Taiping Jing suggests that early people who were living completely "as they are" (ziran) would not need food, but instead would live only by absorbing the cosmic qi of Yin and Yang. This ancient state has since fallen away, however, which is why the Celestial Master of the Taipingjing says that food is now one of two absolute essentials for human existence.^[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoist_diet

 

If people are eating fear /pain etc they will become that... as they are eating those hormones, behavior will reflect this?

A California prison gave prisoners an option of practicing a vegan diet + a few extra benefits, they had remarkable results... prisoners completely changing their lives (previous page (post #169))

Edited May 3, 2013 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Stosh]

DRT and I were able to find common ground ,

we're not fallen.

 

To persist when one isnt really in opposition ,

is often acting out of pride,

but anyway you slice it ,

Its still not reflecting 'right' the way things are ,

so it is still a distortion

the brother of 'outright wrong'.

 

But by all means carry the flag onward

the whole meat subject needs to be squashed flat for a while.

Yes it will rise again to plague mankind

But thats how it all works right?

[Stosh]

Regarding the "Fall of Man"

 

* "During the reign of Emperor Cheng of the Han, hunters in the Zhongnan Mountains saw a person who wore no clothes, his body covered with black hair. Upon seeing this person, the hunters wanted to pursue and capture him, but the person leapt over gullies and valleys as if in flight, and so could not be overtaken. [but after being surrounded and captured, it was discovered this person was a 200 plus year old woman, who had once been a concubine of Qin Emperor Ziying. When he had surrendered to the 'invaders of the east', she fled into the mountains where she learned to subside on 'the resin and nuts of pines' from an old man. Afterwards, this diet 'enabled [her] to feel neither hunger nor thirst; in winter [she] was not cold, in summer [she] was not hot.']

 

The hunters took the woman back in. They offered her grain to eat. When she first smelled the stink of grain, she vomited, and only after several days could she tolerate it. After little more than two years of this [diet], her body hair fell out; she turned old and died. Had she not been caught by men, she would have become a transcendent." (Campany 2002)

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/24484-yoked-to-earth-a-treatise-on-corpse-demons-and-bigu/

 

This is regarding grains... her diet was vegan.

 

 

 

If people are eating fear /pain etc they will become that... as they are eating those hormones, behavior will reflect this?

 

A California prison gave prisoners an option of practicing a vegan diet + a few extra benefits, they had remarkable results... prisoners completely changing their lives (previous page)

 

 

Thats all beside the point , your thread wasnt started describing the health benefits of "grain free" living

So its still your turn.

 

I have now come across a number of texts that attribute eating meat with a fall from grace of some kind.

 

Abraham (Judaism, Christianity, Islam - I am assuming they all have a similar Genesis + Garden of Eden story) - Before the fall man lived in harmony with all animals / was a steward of the earth.

 

Vedas - Kali Yuga... fall of man began with the slaughter of cows.

 

Many references to a Golden Age East to West (Harmony)

 

I think Zoroastrianism sums things up pretty nicely though.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Stosh

[eye_of_the_storm]

If you are perfect why are you here?

[Stosh]

Is that you admitting you were wrong all along?

I doubt it , but, ..

 

I never claimed perfection- in the colloquial sense.

Look for it , go ahead , you wont find me saying that anywhere

 

What I have said is that all things are perfectly -the thing that they are

which includes you too.

 

To see things as perfect ( again colloquial speech)

one has to have some expectation,, some image

that can fulfill the term

and other image-expectations which can be -other than fulfilled.

 

Usually this revolves around homogenaity

She is always right , always beautiful , always kind etc etc

and then other folks can get called imperfect,

he isnt always right, he isnt handsome to all , he isnt always kind

 

IF

When a situation calls for you to be nice ,and you have that in your repetior

, and do be nice ...great !

When a situation calls for you to protect your loved ones ,,,

you ,being the baddest ass in town can also be said to be great !

Thats you fulfilling your roles and responsibilities,

but its not homogenous behavior, you are not stuck in a zombie mode

always happy ,always nice, always stubborn, ,,etc whatever!

 

It is the situatuation which dictates what traits are most advantageous to have

so there is no "perfect"

other than to say you always fulfill -being you - perfectly.

 

Flexibility is key, it is being responsive adaptive etc

but sometimes it means 'being the mountain'

other times it can be just plain innocent , or lucky

rather than a brilliant tactician

 

Neither you, nor I, will ever be 'perfect' .

get used to it ,,let that particular illusion go

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Well lets just say there isnt an inherent connection

between the compassion that one can have

and the food they consume

because I think thats what you are meaning.

 

Which would leave us two in agreement

on the great majority of points made.

 

Now If we could just get WWROA to come down from the mountaintop ...

 

 

The object is not the point.

 

Both objects must consume other objects in order to continue to support the ecology of the independent object.

 

The compassion factor is not WHAT the object DOES, or WHY the object NEEDS, but WEATHER OR NOT, and HOW the object expresses concern for the subjects of its self and of other objects-weather consumed or preserved.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Northern Avid Judo Ant

[Stosh]

The issue has never been the definition of compassion.

It has been that those who eat meat are less good than those who don't

That the prohibitions have some legitimacy because they recur

 

As I already said there are no free lunches, to give to one is to take from another.

Your compassionate feelings are belied by the effects that they have which is zero sum. It is not tao virtue to sacrifice one thing for another.

 

You eat the cow that eats the corn that takes up the land that feeds the bison that feeds the wolf ad. Infinitum

Or you eat only the corn which takes up the space that feeds the deer that fed the wolf , and so on.

The only difference is what life forms one considers important.

[Stosh]

If the effects of ones efforts are zero , then functionally speaking there is

 

No reason to do things to have a self gratifying sense of compassion.I know its not doing anything beneficial, so a deficiency in compassion is not indicated.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Stosh

[Stosh]

If yall could decide what deserved compassion most people or animal-persons, or if they were interchangeable value wise , you might make a cogent argument. Might,, but either way there is no wrong in eating animals by humans.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Stosh

[liminal_luke]

Stosh,

 

If you have the stamina, grit, incredible tolerance to continue to fight this battle my hat´s off to you. Many vegetarians do go back to eating meat eventually. Perhaps they start having health problems and figure out that maybe their diet has something to do with it. Or else they educate themselves about the possibility of eating meat that has been raised and killed in a humane way. Or they read how modern agriculture isn´t an environmental panecea. Personally though, I don´t know about these folks. I don´t think there´s anything I can say to reach them. They´ll just twist my words and put up another emotionally inflamatory video. Sometimes the need to believe one´s own actions are noble and right, and everyone else is just an uncompassionate "me, me, me" narcissist is just too strong.

 

In the end, you might not convince anybody of anything but at least you can grill yourself a nice steak dinner. If you´d like to invite me to the barbeque, I´ll take mine medium rare with a nice glass of red wine. Cheers!

 

Liminal

[Wu Ming Jen]

I eat plants so I am better than meat eaters. I eat meat so I am better than plant eaters. I don't eat so I am better than people that eat. I think the fall of man has to do with mind / thinking. When a society is cruel to animals they are cruel to each other, it seems to be a transferable energy.

 

The real fall of man related to food is our centralized, profit not for people's health attitude. When a natural organic living system (our bodies) is given artificial and single extractions of food chemically altered the organic system is injured and the society is poisoned by the energy that creates the unnatural products in the first place.

 

Monsanto can patent modified seeds. The FDA approves food from corporations that produce the food not an independent source. If we want to save man from the fall here is a great place to begin or time travel back in time for "the one" and only reason for The Fall Of Man.

[blindeye]

do some or all animals feel anger and or fear if attacked? ..if anger/fire is a stage of alchemy what is the total volume of anger per day or per month released by all beings killed for food each day, or month? Seems very great to me.. When humans kill other humans is there a karmic repercussion? If daily gigatons of fear that never truly needed to occure suddenly ceased what would happen?

[eye_of_the_storm]

Thats all beside the point , your thread wasnt started describing the health benefits of "grain free" living

So its still your turn.

 

I have now come across a number of texts that attribute eating meat with a fall from grace of some kind.

 

Abraham (Judaism, Christianity, Islam - I am assuming they all have a similar Genesis + Garden of Eden story) - Before the fall man lived in harmony with all animals / was a steward of the earth.

 

Vedas - Kali Yuga... fall of man began with the slaughter of cows.

 

Many references to a Golden Age East to West (Harmony)

 

I think Zoroastrianism sums things up pretty nicely though.

 

You dont see any connection between what I posted and a "fall from grace" kinda thing?

[Marblehead]

 

You dont see any connection between what I posted and a "fall from grace" kinda thing?

I know the question was to Stosh but my answer is: No.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Marblehead

[Stosh]

I agree with Mh , the idea that eating meat one day dropped humanity from some higher status than he once had, is nonsensical ( grace in who's eyes?)

Men have always relied on meat as food.

In taoist view , the diminishment of men comes with the transition to a non traditional lifestyle of artifical mores. This fall associates with the advent of agricultue or urbanization , or with the socialization of the young . Yes lots of people have pointed at killing animals as not compassionate.

And some say that compassion is man's greatest trait. But compassion is only a FEELING that might motivate. Pointing that feeling in wrong directions is not a mark of some superior -ness.

One can still exercise benevolent behavior without the 'carrot and stick' mentality of compassion .

Its a buddhist or christian thing , it is still an application of a dualistic worldview...right wrong nice mean good bad and bias judgements like telling people that they aren't as good as you because they eat bacon.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

okay, people, im sick of being ignored and misinterpreted so im going to try one last time then ignore this nonsensical argument.




The "fall from grace" part has nothing to do at all with the ACT alone of EATING anything.

It comes from disregarding the sacrifice made by the being whom had to die so you could live. THAT is the fall from grace.

SO FUCK IT!

[Marblehead]

SO FUCK IT!

Hehehe. Well, be that way, tough guy.

 

I would be in agreement with you if I felt that there was a "Fall".

[eye_of_the_storm]

hu·mane

/(h)yo͞oˈmān/

Adjective

1. Having or showing compassion or benevolence.
2. Inflicting the minimum of pain.

Synonyms

human - humanitarian

 

hu·man

/ˈ(h)yo͞omən/

Adjective

Of, relating to, or characteristic of people or human beings.

Noun

A human being, esp. a person as distinguished from an animal or (in science fiction) an alien.

Synonyms

adjective. humane

- By definition that is what it is to be human.

 

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

"fall" and "rise" are perspectives of going to and coming from destinations.


We have people from the top coming down, from the bottom going up, and stagnant stasei (stasises?) all along the way in between.


So it depends on y(our) objectives as to weather or not having compassion is "better" than having no compassion at all.

If being compassionateless is your objective, then murder without remorse or resource would be a "rise" rather than a "fall".

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

 

hu·mane

/(h)yo͞oˈmān/

Adjective

1. Having or showing compassion or benevolence.
2. Inflicting the minimum of pain.

Synonyms

human - humanitarian

 

hu·man

/ˈ(h)yo͞omən/

Adjective

Of, relating to, or characteristic of people or human beings.

Noun

A human being, esp. a person as distinguished from an animal or (in science fiction) an alien.

Synonyms

adjective. humane

- By definition that is what it is to be human.

 

 

 

Lol now look up "civil"

 

 

Compare "Civilization" to "Humanization"

Edited May 4, 2013 by Northern Avid Judo Ant

[eye_of_the_storm]

civ·i·li·za·tion

/ˌsivələˈzāSHən/

Noun

1. The most advanced stage of human social development and organization.
2. The process by which a society or place reaches this stage.

Synonyms

culture

Perfection is something that can never be attained?

Or as say a "master" of any art would say... there is still so much to learn?

I am an Idealist I guess.... "we who are aimed"

If all one sees is an abyss... well there isn't much point in talking.

If you don't believe in anything, what guides you?

Where are you going?

Every breath is an act of faith.

Edited May 4, 2013 by White Wolf Running On Air