Animal Flesh and the Fall of Man.

[digitalyogi]

Okay. Now that post allows me to be a bit closer to being able to agree with you.

 

Let's not cloud our reasoning with unsupportable mythology. Let's stick to the facts.

 

I think that the "fall of man" can be traced to his/her greed for more than is needed. And this greed prevents the willingness to share. And to many's refusal to do their fair share of the work needed for everyone to live in harmony.

 

I don't see the eating of meat having anything to do with it. But to the cruelity, I am in agreement with you.

 

If you read some of the material by some of the famous historical religious figures in India, most of them say that meat magnifies greed and other negative emotions to a great degree. So who knows maybe meat does screw up something inside of us. Maybe or maybe not, who knows. Even the old testament forbids eathing of meat.

[hydrogen]

Plants communicate with each other via underground fungi

 

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/study-shows-plants-communicate-other-via-underground-fungi-211754050.html

 

 

Apparently plants are alive too. When you vegans chew the plant alive, can't you hearing them scream? Where is your bleeding heart? Is your own survival more important than the plants you kill?

[Marblehead]

If you read some of the material by some of the famous historical religious figures in India, most of them say that meat magnifies greed and other negative emotions to a great degree. So who knows maybe meat does screw up something inside of us. Maybe or maybe not, who knows. Even the old testament forbids eathing of meat.

Good try.

 

I have a tendency to not believe any religious figure no matter what religion or area of the planet.

 

But let us not forget that most Indians eat meat.

 

Oh!, and tigers eat Indians.

 

Actually, tigers in India are protected and valued more than people are.

 

I'm waiting for that day when the lion lays down with the lamb and after their nap they both go out and eat grass.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Marblehead

[xor]

Apparently plants are alive too. When you vegans chew the plant alive, can't you hearing them scream? Where is your bleeding heart? Is your own survival more important than the plants you kill?

 

You could always go breatharian.

[baiqi]

Apparently plants are alive too. When you vegans chew the plant alive, can't you hearing them scream? Where is your bleeding heart? Is your own survival more important than the plants you kill?

I am absolutely bored with this: I've heard it around a thousand times. Pretty much like the "Hitler" thing. Don't you have any originality when you try vegan-bashing?

 

Plants don't have a central nervous system, animals do.

 

No, I don't hear my carrots scream when I cut them. But I've certainly heard animals scream when they were killed.

 

 

 

Now, even if plants had feelings: if you breed animals, you need:

 

- to cut down a forest, in order to grow some transgenic soy

- to take the soy and give to the animals you're breeding.

- to kill the animals for their meat.

 

So in the end, you have killed more plants than a vegetarian (or vegan) did. And I didn't talk about the pollution caused by intensive breeding.

 

 

 

I'm waiting for that day when the lion lays down with the lamb and after their nap they both go out and eat grass.

I am not, although it would be enjoyable. I am waiting for the day man and the lamb have a nap together, both go out. The lamb would eat grass, and the man vegetarian dishes that taste a little better than grass!

[Marblehead]

I am not, although it would be enjoyable. I am waiting for the day man and the lamb have a nap together, both go out. The lamb would eat grass, and the man vegetarian dishes that taste a little better than grass!

Well, your day is here and has been for quite some time. It's just that not many do it. I have nothing against vegetarianism, please understand this. But then I have nothing against a person deciding to be a carnivore either. Choices. But I am against the cruel treatment of the animals that are going to be consumed.

[Maddie]

There are some issuess like this where I think both sides make valid points.

 

Yea I'm sure it sucks for an animal to be killed so that it can be eaten.

 

On the other hand using Eskimos again for an example (hey I lived and did my undergrad in Alaska lol) though not called this they pretty much had what in my opinion was one of the most closely Taoistic societies on the planet before white guys showed up.

 

They had very few laws, or social structure and organization. Laozi says many times that the more laws and rules the further a society is from the Tao. They were all about living in harmony with nature.

 

The shaman would spirit travel to find the whales and once he found them the hunters could purify themselves spiritually before the hunt and not talk to or see the women before the hunt (it was considered bad luck to do so, not some sort of misogynistic attitude). If they went through all that trouble to raise their shen before the hunt to help them find the whales then they didn't want to think of women and such before hand and have their shen re-convert to jing.

 

They were very generous and non-greedy with each other. Once they brought the whale back all the village would share it. I found it ironic that when the missionaries showed up to teach them about the love of Jesus, the missionaries had to teach the Eskimos to not share so much lol, but to understand the value of money... sheesh.

 

So the point is, the Eskimos were a very heavily carnivorous society and yet were one of the most closely Taoist societies.

[Marblehead]

So the point is, the Eskimos were a very heavily carnivorous society and yet were one of the most closely Taoist societies.

Valid points, yes. Again, there is the Way of Heaven and the way of man. Sometimes they differ dramatically.

[eye_of_the_storm]

Well, your day is here and has been for quite some time. It's just that not many do it. I have nothing against vegetarianism, please understand this. But then I have nothing against a person deciding to be a carnivore either. Choices. But I am against the cruel treatment of the animals that are going to be consumed.

 

Do the animals get choices?

[eye_of_the_storm]

 

A little over a year. I haven't had any urges until now.

 

they go away.

 

hard to say.. I don't know what your diet is like.

 

Some will say they are vegetarian and all they eat is dairy products, bread, chips coke... haha

 

If you are eating veges, fruits, leafy greens, herbs, mushrooms , small amount of nuts etc you should be ace

 

+ sunshine + clean water + exercise.

 

they say.. 1L of water per 20kg of body weight per day

 

10g of carbs for every kg of body weight ... so 60kg = 600 carbs which is apparently around 30 bananas a day // credit goes to DURIANRIDER... check him out on youtube... + check out the other videos I have posted...follow leads etc... that is what he himself aims for anyway I think... runs + cycles etc very fit... so that is the diet of an athlete.

 

// some calculators say around 400 - 444 for myself based on height age etc..+ that was for very active lifestyle... you'll have to figure out what is good for you...to perform at your best and how much you want LIVE.

 

good amount of info to go through... how crazy we spend 12+ years at school and we are never taught about proper nutrition or how to look after your own body / basic life skills + health stuff.

 

///

 

For breakfast today

 

Ive had hmm... 3 apples 2 bananas... 6 dates with a table spoon of natural/organic peanut paste... a bowl of grapes and a bowl of lightly steamed potatoes / sweet potato and celery (with a small amount of sea salt and pepper)... and a mandarin fruit.

 

YUM!

 

+ takes very little effort to prepare.

 

So a medium apple is 24.7g approx x 3 = 75

 

Medium banana is 27g approx x 2 = 54

 

6 dates = 108g

 

Grapes approx = 60gs

 

 

soo total so far is 297.... without the other stuff....

 

So est maybe just for breakfast already @ 400

 

... you can look online for ^ ( I was using http://www.calorieking.com/foods/calories-in-fresh-fruits-dates-medjool_f-ZmlkPTE1ODE4OA.html )

 

First time I have actually looked at carb intake... just to give you folks an idea.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 15, 2013 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

the herd is calm, pacified by the lull of false premise. one becomes spooked with the realization of the herd's deathtrap and flails, but soon calms, as the herd shows no signs of concern, it must be nothing.


The inevitable slaughter one cow noticed is no longer a concern - why fight the herd you want to protect?

[silent thunder]

So many great comments.

 

I'm often confused.

About food, I'm pretty clear. Life is food. I'm food. I really enjoy good food.

But most importantly, I love feeling great and vibrating on a high level.

The more awareness (not knowledge) I have, the higher I vibrate.

 

As my practice has progressed and my awareness of how things react in the conditions of my body, I find myself making changes. Or rather, not changing so much as noticing my desires shifting. I know how I feel after eating certain things and if they don't amplify my vibrations, I don't want them coming into me. Some things I refuse to take, others will come when the time is right and some, I can't get enough of...

 

I grew up hunting and eating a lot of meat, eating pretty much anything. Exotic and simple, toxic and refined and thinking nothing of it. After my first kill though, my bell was struck pretty hard and I couldn't stop thinking about the moment the spark of life left that pheasant. My Dad, who taught me how to hunt and hike and camp, was not spiritual at all (engineering background and materialist perspective), so for him it was sport and good food; but in the moment of that kill I knew the nature of the sacrifice and my benefit from it and I was changed. Up to that point I had never paid any attention to what I ate or where it came from.

 

So here is my long-winded-get-to-the point-already point... For me, (who still eats flesh of a couple types, once in a while), I developed a personal acknowledgement and spiritual ritual, whenever I hunted or ate any flesh. I kept it quiet from my dad and his buddies, knowing they were not operating on that level. But for me to engage in that process, I could not hunt without intention and an acknowledgement of the sacrifice and my benefit.

 

I find intention is the key to how the energy of any form of consumption/expulsion plays out in my system. Birth, life, death is all transformation. Food transforms from Jing to Qi in my practice. Without intention though, it really feels like 'waving my arms in the air'... there is no amplification, it lacks vitality and the flow is weak.

 

I now honor the sacrifice in anything I take into my system. Water gets highest accolades.

The honoring begins in preparation and finishes with loud sounds of happy ingesting, usually surrounded by people I love.

It's grown into a game I play with my son while we cook and eat. We'll be making something and we'll try to think of everything that was possibly involved in the creation of the food we are about to eat, the more obscure the better. Sun, rain, wind, dirt, who grew it, who picked it, packaged it, painted the picture on the label, who drove it, who made the truck it drove in, the gas in the truck, the bugs in the dirt, the poop that helped it grow (he really loves that one) who made the silverware we use... it's a fun game that acts as a way to instill in our active awareness, a whole plethora of energy patterns related to what we are bringing into us.

 

I find it amplifies my experience.

 

As does this conversation, thank you all.

[Marblehead]

 

Do the animals get choices?

Fair question. Most wild animals get choices. Some domesticated animals get choices. Those farmed for consumption generally get no choice (unless they can somehow escape).

 

But then, we can say almost the same thing for the human animal.

[Marblehead]

the herd is calm, pacified by the lull of false premise. one becomes spooked with the realization of the herd's deathtrap and flails, but soon calms, as the herd shows no signs of concern, it must be nothing.

 

 

The inevitable slaughter one cow noticed is no longer a concern - why fight the herd you want to protect?

Ah!, the herd animal. Very perceptive. Keep yourself centered but you don't have to remain at the center of the herd.

[eye_of_the_storm]

Fair question. Most wild animals get choices. Some domesticated animals get choices. Those farmed for consumption generally get no choice (unless they can somehow escape).

 

But then, we can say almost the same thing for the human animal.

 

haha yeha

[baiqi]

So the point is, the Eskimos were a very heavily carnivorous society and yet were one of the most closely Taoist societies.

Yes, probably. It is absolutely normal for eskimos to eat meat, it is a matter of survival. (well mainly fish, I guess?) Not so much for us.

 

 

 

Is your own survival more important than the plants you kill?

Clearly, yes. And I would eat meat if I had to as well. If I were an eskimo, for example. The key word here is survival. You cannot talk ethics when in survival mode. Or you accept to get killed, which is not my case.

 

But people in modern societies don't eat meat to survive anymore. It's a cultural thing.

 

Actually, I am not too much concerned with this "fall of man" in the Abrahamic or even Taoist sense. People started to eat meat a long time ago, for good or bad reasons, possibly both. I am more concerned about what's going on here and now, and how to do best.

 

 

 

 

I have nothing against vegetarianism, please understand this. But then I have nothing against a person deciding to be a carnivore either. Choices. But I am against the cruel treatment of the animals that are going to be consumed.

I know. And I don't judge you as a person. I was just tired yesterday o falways hearing the same BS over and over again.

About choices: I was a carnivore (almost!) for many years , too. I cannot say I really had a choice, I just would not think about it, it was just part of my life. I had no idea about the alternatives, nor the consequences.

 

...But this would lead us to another topic about free will, so I'll leave it here from now on!

 

 

[Stosh]

IMPO

It doesnt seem like any of these views really fits with an extension of the philosophy of Tao

It doesnt have to, but

If you dont really exist , your Identity-ego is suspect ,

the same is true for beasties

If there is no legitimate right or wrong dichotomy

then there is nothing right wrong with killing per se'

( but you still have the consequences to deal with so

there is only expedience from the perspective

on which you orient.)

and there is no 'bad' karma to endure for eating them

If the animals -and people are confabulations of the elements

just what is it that can die?

If you are the same as a beast then I can treat you like a beast

however that is ,and be justified in your eyes

( although justification is also illusion)

If all things are interconnected and there are no distinctions

no divisions between me and thee ,,again , there is no death-

of the food

there is no food in fact.

IMO

Isnt anyone going to make any argument in line with Tao of Lao rather than buddhism?

 

I dont think so , dont expect so,

its really difficult to give up the illusions you love ...

like that there is compassion in actuality

that you can be good in actuality

that there is a moral correct to obey

and that you can reap rewards on how well you conform to

aforementioned conceptry.

 

Please point me , if you know him or her at the person

who agrees with- lives from the perspective of what I just said

I want to hear from them.

[niveQ]

How much iron do you get from your food?

TO my knowledge, I get a good amount of iron. I eat nuts, seeds and green veggies. I also have a hempseed protein that is high in iron and drink 1-2 kombuchas a day that have both spirillina and chlorella.

[niveQ]

they go away.

 

hard to say.. I don't know what your diet is like.

 

Some will say they are vegetarian and all they eat is dairy products, bread, chips coke... haha

 

If you are eating veges, fruits, leafy greens, herbs, mushrooms , small amount of nuts etc you should be ace

 

+ sunshine + clean water + exercise.

 

they say.. 1L of water per 20kg of body weight per day

 

10g of carbs for every kg of body weight ... so 60kg = 600 carbs which is apparently around 30 bananas a day // credit goes to DURIANRIDER... check him out on youtube... + check out the other videos I have posted...follow leads etc... that is what he himself aims for anyway I think... runs + cycles etc very fit... so that is the diet of an athlete.

 

// some calculators say around 400 - 444 for myself based on height age etc..+ that was for very active lifestyle... you'll have to figure out what is good for you...to perform at your best and how much you want LIVE.

 

good amount of info to go through... how crazy we spend 12+ years at school and we are never taught about proper nutrition or how to look after your own body / basic life skills + health stuff.

 

///

 

For breakfast today

 

Ive had hmm... 3 apples 2 bananas... 6 dates with a table spoon of natural/organic peanut paste... a bowl of grapes and a bowl of lightly steamed potatoes / sweet potato and celery (with a small amount of sea salt and pepper)... and a mandarin fruit.

 

YUM!

 

+ takes very little effort to prepare.

 

So a medium apple is 24.7g approx x 3 = 75

 

Medium banana is 27g approx x 2 = 54

 

6 dates = 108g

 

Grapes approx = 60gs

 

 

soo total so far is 297.... without the other stuff....

 

So est maybe just for breakfast already @ 400

 

... you can look online for ^ ( I was using http://www.calorieking.com/foods/calories-in-fresh-fruits-dates-medjool_f-ZmlkPTE1ODE4OA.html )

 

First time I have actually looked at carb intake... just to give you folks an idea.

 

 

 

 

my diet consists of fruits, veggies, seeds and some nuts. My usual favorites are dates, grapefruits, pears and figs. I also have a hemp seed protein supplement.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Ah!, the herd animal. Very perceptive. Keep yourself centered but you don't have to remain at the center of the herd.

You do realize i was talking about human people, not cow people, right? Cows just make an example of society.

 

 

So i ask you this: If we're the cows, who's the knocker? Who's the sticker? who owns the slaughter house?

[Marblehead]

You do realize i was talking about human people, not cow people, right? Cows just make an example of society.

Yes, I am aware you were talking about the human animal. And so was I. We will leave the cows alone for the moment.

 

So i ask you this: If we're the cows, who's the knocker? Who's the sticker? who owns the slaughter house?

Anyone who has authority over you. Your parents, your teachers, your law enforcement agents, all governments from your local to the national, if you are religious, your religion, and on and on. Yeah, your ego too as well as your desires. Shall we add the monied people of America? Might as well, they are the ones who control most of the nation's resources.

 

The fall of man? Not from eating meat - by letting others have control over us. The controllers are very few - the controlled are the vast majority.

[hydrogen]

Yes, I am aware you were talking about the human animal. And so was I. We will leave the cows alone for the moment.

 

Anyone who has authority over you. Your parents, your teachers, your law enforcement agents, all governments from your local to the national, if you are religious, your religion, and on and on. Yeah, your ego too as well as your desires. Shall we add the monied people of America? Might as well, they are the ones who control most of the nation's resources.

 

The fall of man? Not from eating meat - by letting others have control over us. The controllers are very few - the controlled are the vast majority.

 

Can you name a few controllers? Thanks.

[Marblehead]

Can you name a few controllers? Thanks.

Shall I start with Bill Gates? Actually, any of the CEO's of very large corporations, especially finance and banking. The CEO's of any very large industry capable of controlling the market prices, oil, for example. And I will add majority share-holder in most public-held companies capable of controlling the market price.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

HHHHHHHHHHHHHHAW! The FIRST thing i thought was "gates" and then i scrolled a LITTLE more... and... HAW!

[eye_of_the_storm]

Who are the controllers? ha..interesting question considering this thread.

I wonder how we can want/ expect freedom when we can't give animals freedom.

So we treat cows...like a commodity "liveSTOCK"...something for us to control totally.

And our governments (mind controllers) treat us the same way...ironic?

cage inside of a cage inside of a cage