Daoist Alchemy: Jerry A. Johnson

[Taomeow]

its all illusion. there is no lunch.

 

"Not only is there no god. Try to find a plumber on a Saturday morning." -- Woody Allen

 

I guess a proponent of the "it's all illusion" view whose sink gets clogged does not need a plumber anyway -- he can solve the problem by just pointing out to the sink that it doesn't exist.

 

But.. what if it's the toilet?..

[Horus]

"Not only is there no god. Try to find a plumber on a Saturday morning." -- Woody Allen

 

I guess a proponent of the "it's all illusion" view whose sink gets clogged does not need a plumber anyway -- he can solve the problem by just pointing out to the sink that it doesn't exist.

 

But.. what if it's the toilet?..

To say it is illusion does not say it does not exist;it exists, it is just existing as illusion.

 

But.. what if it's the toilet?

 

Shit happens!

 

Edit:It is also possible that something exists and does not exist.So, it follows that there is no lunch, while there is lunch.

Edited April 1, 2014 by Horus

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

You mean shift happens.

 

Many a time I cleaned a blocked sink or toilet.

 

I'm a dab hand with a plunger.

 

I sure learnt to keep my mouth shut whilst doing it!

 

Ya gotta get a bit dirty down here in middle earth.

 

Ha ha ha.

 

Where was I?

 

Oh yeah.

 

There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

 

Fair exchange is no robbery.

 

The worker is worthy of his hire.

 

Who won the Jack Pot?

...

Edited April 1, 2014 by Captain Mar-Vell

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

Just don't be stealin' when you should be buyin'.

...

[Zhongyongdaoist]

In reply to this post:

'flowing hands', Posted 31 March 2014

I said:

 

Thanks 'flowing hands', you have no idea how much this post helps me.

I didn't mention that if 'flowing hands' knew exactly how it helped me, he would not have posted it. What this post gave me is enough material to demonstrate another aspect of 'flowing hands' style, which is that, aside from its ad hominem nature, it is totally circular reasoning based on definitions which he provides. If you don't fit within the circle that forms around his self-proclaimed authority, you are wrong. Now he will say his authority derives from his teachers, but this proves nothing because his teachers are all spirits whom he describes as 'immortals' whose message he delivers to us and we have no independent way of checking it, so it exists solely on his word. Nor do I consider that any displays of power or powers is proof because the source of such power or powers is always ambiguous. This ambiguity is more than aptly demonstrated by the endless threads and posts here about 'mo pai' and 'do you have powers', etc.

I had originally thought that I could simply answer directly to the post and tie up some loose ends, but tying up those loose ends became more and more complex. I have spent quite a few hours in the last few days searching threads and posts and copying. Right now on the word processor that I use to compose these posts, there are over twenty pages of notes. This has told me more about 'flowing hands' than I really wanted to know, but it was all for the sake of context. To save the casual reader having to look up all sorts of threads I will post them here, when necessary I will quote from them. I don't know how far I will go with this, I have way to much time on this already, not just the searches and notes, but reflecting on and organizing this material, but one way to avoid writing that time off as a complete waste is to share some of the results here, a project which I will have to break up into several posts.

First however, I would like to summarize my posts related to Jerry Alan Johnson. Only Jerry Alan Johnson can tell us what he means by saying that he is a combination of Buddhist, Christian and Daoist, and what he means by having 'Jesus in his heart'. What I have attempted to do is to provide a defense for someone accused in absentia, that since Jerry Alan Johnson 'has Jesus in his heart' he cannot teach internal alchemy. That this is not necessarily the case I have examined in several posts. The points which I have tried to raise are:

That a Daoist can have Jesus in their practice as a 'god' of the popular religion which I addressed here, in what was directly a response to 'dawei', but was also intended to address issues of Jerry Alan Johnson's use of Jesus:

A Place for Jesus in the Daoist Ritual Dan

and here, where I address having Gods or Spirits in ones heart and emptying them as a prerequisite for Union with the Dao, from which I will quote:

 

To continue my examination of the Daoist Ritual Dan. The Daoist practitioner not only creates this Dan in his imagination around him, but creates it internally. Thus while the Three Pure Ones are visualized in the North they are also visualized in the Daoists body in his three internal Dan, the Dao De Heavenly Worthy in his lower Dan Tien, the Ling Bao Heavenly Worthy in his middle Dan and the Yuan Shih Heavenly Worthy in his upper Dan. The Five Emperors of the Directions, Elements and Planets are visualized in his yin internal organs and of specific interest here is that the Red Emperor of the South, Fire and the Planet Mars is visualized in the practitioner's heart.

Is 'flowing hands' willing to maintain on the basis of his 'sound bite' quote upon which he bases so much, that in all his years of spiritual practice Jerry Alan Johnson has never once done this? And if he has done it once, that was the only time? That Jesus and only Jesus is the only spiritual image that has ever been in Jerry Alan Johnson's heart?

However there is more. Because an essential part of Daoist rite is the Falu, literally the 'lighting of the incense' in which all of these internal spirits are exteriorized, sent out from the Daoists body, but let me allow Michael Saso to continue:

 

Union with the Dao is now achieved. A sacred rescript (shuwen) is carried down from the heavens by the “Du Jiang” Chief Cantor, and presented to the Master, who performs the sacred dance called “Pacing the Void” Bu Xu 步虛. The video shows the “fa lu” 發爐 “lighting the incense burner /alchemical furnace” in the belly. All spirits, energies, images, are sent out of the body (watch the Daoist do this by pressing the joints on the left hand, with the left thumb). Zhuangzi’s words “heart fasting, sitting in forgetfulness” 心齋坐忘, cause 於道合真 “One with Dao” to be realized.” (In Depth Explanation of the Jiao, section Six, Emphasis mine, ZYD)

Is 'flowing hands' willing to maintain based on his 'sound bite', that in all his years of spiritual practice Jerry Alan Johnson has never once done this? And if he has done it once, that was the only time?

I believe that this aptly demonstrates that Jerry Alan Johnson should be able to both have spirits in his heart and to empty his heart of them. He could as easily do this with Jesus as the Red Emperor of the South. I will only note as a matter of passing that what would be meant by Jesus and having 'Jesus in ones heart' to a Christian Fundamentalist and what Jesus and having 'Jesus in ones heart' would mean to someone who follows the Christian Neo-Platonist Trinitarianism of Marius Victorinus, which is based on Plotinus, and maybe even refines it with the trinitarianism of the great Renaissance Scholar and Theologian, Marsilio Ficino, whose translations of the Hermitica, Plato and Plotinus were so vital to Renaissance philosophical thought is completely different. I suspect that what Jerry Alan Johnson means is something in between these two conceptions, but definitely not what most people reading these lines would imagine.

I think that I have spent enough time on this to clarify my intent regarding Jerry Alan Johnson and point to my posts which I believe are most germane to them and since this is long enough as it is will address more issues in a subsequent posts which will continue what I have started here.

[GrandmasterP]

Forgive an intrusion if you see this post as such.

JAJ I have read his Medical QiGong book and thought it most interesting.

Not something I'll ever 'do' but it was well written and not very expensive from Amazon partners.

This $200 latest book of his I'll never buy as it is too much to pay for me for something I would only be reading for interest and with no intention to try to put into my practice.

Having now read through all this thread it is obvious that some serious Bums recommend that book and if people like baguakicksass says a book is good then I reckon a book is good.

Albeit this one's not for me.

FH I was a bit anti to at first but the more I read his stuff the more inspirational I saw it to be.

Also it is freely offered,, which is no criticism of anyone charging money.

I charge fees for classes otherwise I would have to pay the dojo rental out of my own pocket which would be pretty silly.

So maybe JAJ has his contribution to make and FH has his work to do.

We can and maybe could respect them both for that.

Edited April 5, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[flowing hands]

In reply to this post:

 

'flowing hands', Posted 31 March 2014

 

I said:

 

 

I didn't mention that if 'flowing hands' knew exactly how it helped me, he would not have posted it. What this post gave me is enough material to demonstrate another aspect of 'flowing hands' style, which is that, aside from its ad hominem nature, it is totally circular reasoning based on definitions which he provides. If you don't fit within the circle that forms around his self-proclaimed authority, you are wrong. Now he will say his authority derives from his teachers, but this proves nothing because his teachers are all spirits whom he describes as 'immortals' whose message he delivers to us and we have no independent way of checking it, so it exists solely on his word. Nor do I consider that any displays of power or powers is proof because the source of such power or powers is always ambiguous. This ambiguity is more than aptly demonstrated by the endless threads and posts here about 'mo pai' and 'do you have powers', etc.

 

I had originally thought that I could simply answer directly to the post and tie up some loose ends, but tying up those loose ends became more and more complex. I have spent quite a few hours in the last few days searching threads and posts and copying. Right now on the word processor that I use to compose these posts, there are over twenty pages of notes. This has told me more about 'flowing hands' than I really wanted to know, but it was all for the sake of context. To save the casual reader having to look up all sorts of threads I will post them here, when necessary I will quote from them. I don't know how far I will go with this, I have way to much time on this already, not just the searches and notes, but reflecting on and organizing this material, but one way to avoid writing that time off as a complete waste is to share some of the results here, a project which I will have to break up into several posts.

 

First however, I would like to summarize my posts related to Jerry Alan Johnson. Only Jerry Alan Johnson can tell us what he means by saying that he is a combination of Buddhist, Christian and Daoist, and what he means by having 'Jesus in his heart'. What I have attempted to do is to provide a defense for someone accused in absentia, that since Jerry Alan Johnson 'has Jesus in his heart' he cannot teach internal alchemy. That this is not necessarily the case I have examined in several posts. The points which I have tried to raise are:

 

That a Daoist can have Jesus in their practice as a 'god' of the popular religion which I addressed here, in what was directly a response to 'dawei', but was also intended to address issues of Jerry Alan Johnson's use of Jesus:

 

A Place for Jesus in the Daoist Ritual Dan

 

and here, where I address having Gods or Spirits in ones heart and emptying them as a prerequisite for Union with the Dao, from which I will quote:

 

 

I believe that this aptly demonstrates that Jerry Alan Johnson should be able to both have spirits in his heart and to empty his heart of them. He could as easily do this with Jesus as the Red Emperor of the South. I will only note as a matter of passing that what would be meant by Jesus and having 'Jesus in ones heart' to a Christian Fundamentalist and what Jesus and having 'Jesus in ones heart' would mean to someone who follows the Christian Neo-Platonist Trinitarianism of Marius Victorinus, which is based on Plotinus, and maybe even refines it with the trinitarianism of the great Renaissance Scholar and Theologian, Marsilio Ficino, whose translations of the Hermitica, Plato and Plotinus were so vital to Renaissance philosophical thought is completely different. I suspect that what Jerry Alan Johnson means is something in between these two conceptions, but definitely not what most people reading these lines would imagine.

 

I think that I have spent enough time on this to clarify my intent regarding Jerry Alan Johnson and point to my posts which I believe are most germane to them and since this is long enough as it is will address more issues in a subsequent posts which will continue what I have started here.

IMO there is nothing wrong with believing in Jesus as a person, he appears to have a lot of sense, though we have no direct writings of anything he ever did or said. I am very suspicious of anything written by other people about, particularly, a spiritual person who are idolized. Exaggeration is normally the norm and then we get fantastic stories about this person due to idolization and personal need of the admirer. What you have said basically stops you believing in anything that I have to say. That's closed minded and you seem to constantly demonstrate to me a stubborn inability to accept that such people like me do exist and that I am here for a reason and no other. Of course there are plenty of things I could tell you to demonstrate my abilities, but you have closed your mind to them. So you must go your way I must keep doing my work in hope that I get through to fertile ground. Like Jesus I am here to offer something pure untainted by money and personal ego. Most spiritual leaders do not 'lower' themselves to rankle with the masses on forums and the like, but it is because I am such a person in reality that I do and you cannot buy my teachings.

 

Just one point which I have discussed at length on this site, I was asked to be a judge at the national Kung Fu and Tai Chi championships. A very well known Tai Chi Master vouched for my authenticity in the arts that I taught. One person on this site had to eat their words as they, as it turned out, had been taught by this person. So those arts which were demonstrated by my students at the time and won medals were taught to me by my Immortal masters and not by any mortal. This is a proven fact if you want one.

Edited April 6, 2014 by flowing hands

[Zhongyongdaoist]

he will say his authority derives from his teachers, but this proves nothing because his teachers are all spirits whom he describes as 'immortals' whose message he delivers to us and we have no independent way of checking it, so it exists solely on his word. Nor do I consider that any displays of power or powers is proof because the source of such power or powers is always ambiguous. This ambiguity is more than aptly demonstrated by the endless threads and posts here about 'mo pai' and 'do you have powers', etc.

 

IMO there is nothing wrong with believing in Jesus as a person, he appears to have a lot of sense, though we have no direct writings of anything he ever did or said. I am very suspicious of anything written by other people about, particularly, a spiritual person who are idolized. Exaggeration is normally the norm and then we get fantastic stories about this person due to idolization and personal need of the admirer. What you have said basically stops you believing in anything that I have to say. That's closed minded and you seem to constantly demonstrate to me a stubborn inability to accept that such people like me do exist and that I am here for a reason and no other. Of course there are plenty of things I could tell you to demonstrate my abilities, but you have closed your mind to them. So you must go your way I must keep doing my work in hope that I get through to fertile ground. Like Jesus I am here to offer something pure untainted by money and personal ego. Most spiritual leaders do not 'lower' themselves to rankle with the masses on forums and the like, but it is because I am such a person in reality that I do and you cannot buy my teachings.

 

Just one point which I have discussed at length on this site, I was asked to be a judge at the national Kung Fu and Tai Chi championships. A very well known Tai Chi Master vouched for my authenticity in the arts that I taught. One person on this site had to eat their words as they, as it turned out, had been taught by this person. So those arts which were demonstrated by my students at the time and won medals were taught to me by my Immortal masters and not by any mortal. This is a proven fact if you want one.

 

What you have said basically stops you believing in anything that I have to say. That's closed minded and you seem to constantly demonstrate to me a stubborn inability to accept that such people like me do exist and that I am here for a reason and no other: Anyone who reads my post carefully will realize that what I doubt is not your experiences but your interpretation of them:

 

his teachers are all spirits whom he describes as 'immortals': All I have said is that your teachers are spirits whom you describe as 'immortals'. If I personally doubt anything here it is that these spirits are 'immortals'.

 

Nor do I consider that any displays of power or powers is proof because the source of such power or powers is always ambiguous. This ambiguity is more than aptly demonstrated by the endless threads and posts here about 'mo pai' and 'do you have powers', etc.: What I have said here is that your spirits whom you claim to be immortals may produce all the phenomena which you claim, what difference does it make, it only proves that phenomena can be produced, it does not testify to the source of those phenomena.

 

So what it comes down to is not whether I am stubborn or not, but whether I have good reason to be stubborn and based on some of the things which you do say, I believe that I do, and would believe that I have those good reasons no matter what phenomena you were able to produce.

 

Just one point which I have discussed at length on this site: yes, I found your discussion with 'mjjbecker' already, as I mentioned I have been researching your posts. It is in the pit under the title of 'Q&A to Flowing Hands background'. I was already going to refer to it because of some interesting aspects to it. I will return to this at the end of my post.

 

Of course there are plenty of things I could tell you to demonstrate my abilities, but you have closed your mind to them: and there are plenty of things which I could tell you, but I won't for reasons which I have stated above.

 

So those arts which were demonstrated by my students at the time and won medals were taught to me by my Immortal masters and not by any mortal: This simply reinforces what I said above.

 

This is a proven fact if you want one. What is a proven fact, that you teach things which you claim come from spirits, and may very well as far as I am concerned, or that these spirits are 'immortals', which I doubt very much.

 

In my life I have seen all kinds of phenomena and and 'revealed teachings' and I am not impressed by any of them as giving some form of questionable authority to those teachings. Based on what you have said I see no reason to give such unquestionable authority to you.

 

Now I will continue with a reply to your previous post that I had already been working on and had almost completed:

 

Your very learned quotes are the things that let you down. They are from others and not your own personal experience. Many of them are completely wrong. As for Master Chuang and Michael Saso, he was a Daoist priest and not a shaman. He performed the rites as to what he had learned from others and from books mainly (I read the book) not from the Immortals. So what you have written bears no essence of truth, just a ritual and a visualization, but in truth, not so. There are many rituals and rites which have become the part of Daoist Cannon and part of the Daoist church, a bit like a lot of religions. Many of these came from shamanism and some came from Chang Tao ling. Now they are all mixed up together with Buddhism as well, and have been for hundreds if not thousands of years. So various masters add their bit and their imaginations as to the reality of Immortals and spirits, especially in the Daoist church where one can't move for rites and so called spirits who have to be constantly appeased; sorry if it offends you Taomeow, its just a load of nonsense. But in truth many do not exist or do they exist in the direction you say. Learned of many books you may be, knowledgeable of the truth you are not. Judge not, lest thee be judged. Remember I have been taught the pure way, the way of Immortals, not the way of ordinary men. No book have I followed, no course have I been on, but I have made myself like a tree, humbled myself before the Heavens and begged to be taught.

 

Your very learned quotes are the things that let you down: I don't know if this means that 'flowing hands' considers 'being learned' and experience are incompatible, they are of course not incompatible.

 

Many of them are completely wrong: This is his opinion based on the teaching he has received from his 'teachers', who who are spirits which he believes to be 'immortals'. As such we have no way to evaluate his claims, since we have no direct access to his sources, we cannot make an independent judgment and must accept or reject his opinion based on our evaluation of him.

 

They are from others and not your own personal experience: Since 'flowing hands' simply dismisses anyone else's personal experience, unless that is it is in agreement with his, there is no reason for me to even attempt to make an account of it, even if it was my policy to recount personal experiences for public entertainment, but it is not. I have a general policy of not using my personal experiences as objects of discussion for reasons that may already be obvious to people reading this post, they are not capable of independent corroboration. I certainly do have experience, otherwise I would not be posting here on the Tao Bums and defending the teachings of Religious Daoism.

 

As for Master Chuang and Michael Saso, he was a Daoist priest and not a shaman: Shaman is in this case a more acceptable term for 'medium' and while in some of the posts which I will reference in a future post he maintains a distinction between his 'shamanism' and ordinary mediumship, that is once again his claim. Now Jerry Alan Johnson does mention what amounts to mediumship under the modern phase 'walk-in' and also as 'Deity Magic', his discussion is purely within the context of sex magic and can be found on pages 255-258 of Daoist Magical Transformation Skills. There are also discussions of transformation into deities in other of his books, but these do not seem to be exactly like this mediumistic 'possession'. Examples of this can be found on pages 284-287 of Daoist Weather Magic and Feng Shui, where examples of transformation into Zhenwu, the 'Perfect Warrior' manifestation of the Dark Emperor of the North and 'Mother Du', the Goddess of the Northern Dipper, as well as other places in his books. That Daoist practitioners routinely use such transformations in their rituals is not widely known, but is confirmed in the scholarly literature by Lagerway on pages 71-72 of Taoist Ritual in Chinese Society and History.

 

I have made myself like a tree, humbled myself before the Heavens and begged to be taught: in the next paragraph he says, 'So for two years nearly every day I said my prayer, looked up to the east with my arms open like a tree and begged.' This explains part of his emphasis on trees in self cultivation. I'll quote what he said earlier:

 

Now the verse that Li Erh Xian Shi taught me as your example is telling people to make themselves like trees. Now a true cultivator will understand this and recognize why this symbolism is so powerful.

 

I doubt that many people immediately thought of begging when they read the above passage, so I guess that means that they are not a true cultivator by 'flowing hands' definition. I don't know if he as posted this esoteric key to his teaching on the new verses of the DDJ thread. Maybe I should go post it there for the edification of everyone who is interested in the secret of 'true cultivation'.

 

There is a part of this forum which is not merely 'protected', but a actually hidden from the casual reader of the Tao Bums, it is called the Pit and you have to register to access it. This is where almost all threads and posts that are considered too 'strange' for public view go. I mention this by way of apology to the casual reader for citing the following as they cannot follow the links.

 

While researching this material I came across the fallowing:

 

The temple that I belong to you can look it up it has many branches in Malaysia etc. I come under Huang Lao Xian Shi. I have many bond brothers and sisters around the world. ('flowing hands' claim to belong to a Malasian Temple of Huang LaoXian Shi)

 

In a locked thread titled Q&A to Flowing Hands background which was started on March 17, 2012

 

Off hand I see no good reason to doubt this claim, so I researched the Huang Lao Xian Shi temples and found the material interesting and thought it worth posting, again with the idea that it provides context, but I think people will find it interesting in itself. I was able to investigate the Malaysian temples fairly easily, but ran into a think wall of Chinese trying to go further. There is information which I will reference that indicates these temples do exist outside of Malaysia and If there is anyone here who can fill in details of these temples outside of Malaysia that would be interesting.

[flowing hands]

Actually they exist in Hong Kong and there are many followers in Europe who practice at home from an alter. I'm afraid not to be rude but I'm finding your referencing books very boring to make out that somehow they are far better than anything I could possibly known or say, or my Immortal teachers also very disrespectful. So here ends the monologue, I'm simply not interested, nor do I have the time, in arguing with you OK.

 

With reference to standing like a tree, when Li Erh Xian Shi taught me that verse I had a great realization about what I had been doing, certain things came together.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Actually they exist in Hong Kong and there are many followers in Europe who practice at home from an alter. I'm afraid not to be rude but I'm finding your referencing books very boring to make out that somehow they are far better than anything I could possibly known or say, or my Immortal teachers also very disrespectful. So here ends the monologue, I'm simply not interested, nor do I have the time, in arguing with you OK.

 

With reference to standing like a tree, when Li Erh Xian Shi taught me that verse I had a great realization about what I had been doing, certain things came together. (Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

Actually they exist in Hong Kong and there are many followers in Europe who practice at home from an alter.: Thank you for this, though as my post on the subject will show I already knew about that, at least as far as Hong Kong goes. I am hoping that someone else may be able to provide detail outside of that.

 

your referencing books: My referencing of books is because in principle at least, they can be accessed by all of us and used as a basis of discussion for any of us. Your own teaching is also available to all of us, but its source is not. In that regard we can all discuss your teaching also, but your sources are not available and I and anyone else must evaluate any of your claims about its sources very critically. If you, as you seem to say, find anything other than blind acceptance 'very disrespectful', that's too bad. I don't blindly accept anything, though I will examine and explore all sorts of things, but what I accept is always subject to a very rigorous testing process. That goes for books and teachers and especially for purported revelations from 'spiritual masters', whether called 'immortals' or whatever.

 

Here for example, is a book, the Dao De Jing, that passed a very deep preliminary analysis:

 

Gödel's Way; Exploits in an undecidable world, Gregory Chaitin, Newton da Costa and Francisco Antonio Doria, CRC Press, 2012

 

Kurt Gödel (I finally figured out how to put umlauts in these posts!) is one of the single most influential people in my life. Among other things Gödel contributed to my accepting the Dao De Jing as a fundamental text (though S. I. Hayakawa's work on General Semantics and my high school physics teacher's oft repeated statement that physics was just 'modeling' contributed). So it is only appropriate that I post on a book called Gödel's Way on the Tao Bums.

 

I don't remember exactly when I first became familiar with it, but I think it was about the time I turned seventeen and was taking an advanced math class in number theory my senior year in high school. Gödel's notion of incompleteness seemed to be a rough equivalence to the first chapter of the, at that time, Tao Te Ching (D. C. Lau translation, Penguin Books, 1963), about how the way that could be spoken is not the eternal way, in other words no account that could be put into words was ever going to be a complete account. That combined with the fundamental theory of General Semantics, that the map is not the territory and some of my own musings about the relationship between mathematics and physics, lead me to see Laozi as having possessed a profound insight into the nature of reality and so I decided to make the Dao De Jing my fundamental mystical text.

 

Gödel opened the doorway to infinity for me, since the implication that I drew at the time was that there was a world that could be endlessly, explored, endlessly formalized and never be exhausted. As I decided at the time, 'We will never be bored', because we will never have all the answers.

 

All that was forty-six years ago and my life since then has been a strange Dao indeed. (Emphasis added, ZYD)

 

very disrespectful: Again you are an unintentional master of irony, as anyone who has studied your posts, as I have for the last week or so, knows. You treat anything other than blind acceptance off your word as an act of lèse-majesté and respond with ad hominem denigration of the offending party. You are routinely disrespectful of anything outside of your own small circle of 'true cultivation'.

 

I'm simply not interested, . . . in arguing with you OK: Fine with me, I was never arguing with you, I am simply taking your posts and analyzing them and in so far as I can, I try to let them speak for themselves. I have always been speaking rather more to anyone who reads this, not you. I leave it too others to judge whether I am fair or not and you can always chime in when you have a spare moment.

 

nor do I have the time: This is very time consuming for me also and I have other things which I would rather do, but you have brought this examination on yourself.

 

I will remind you of two things first that you made very specific claim earlier in defense of your behavior:

 

Well let me remind you it was others here who actually started making snide remarks , , , (Emphzsis mine, ZYD)

 

I am not done examining that and almost all of my posts since then have been to show to show the context that exists around that claim, and establish that in both the context of your first quotes here and your subsequent series, so that the casual reader can know that it is at best special pleading and at worst, simply untrue.

 

And second a level of absolute infallibility that would make a Pope blush:

 

But in truth many do not exist or do they exist in the direction you say. Learned of many books you may be, knowledgeable of the truth you are not. Judge not, lest thee be judged. Remember I have been taught the pure way, the way of Immortals, not the way of ordinary men.

 

and above all what Immortals exist and don't exist in the Heavens. Now there are many Immortals that people have never heard of, why? Why then is it that people believe in Immortals and spirits that don't exist? (Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

The above is only a small sampling of such claims both in this thread and elsewhere.

 

My next post on the Huang Lao Xian Shi temples is part of establishing context, but also an interesting spiritual travelogue, which I hope many will find interesting in its own right. Since I am going to organize pages of material it may take me two or three days.

[GrandmasterP]

Good call.

A JAJ thread would be interesting and potentially informative.

He does good work.

Any chance of an interview with him?

Edited April 16, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[GrandmasterP]

I've suggested a JAJ interview over on the Interview thread.

[Apech]

I've suggested a JAJ interview over on the Interview thread.

 

I think BKA has his books and maybe a contact.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Aw man, I was trying to surprise you guys, as well as wait until all the questions and focus was done for the first person we are interviewing... Anyways, Dr. Johnson did say yes to an interview . More details to come in the interview section. Though I don't want to take the steam off the one we are already prepping for.... (also Dr. Johnson asked if we could be a bit patient as he's really busy right now).

[BaguaKicksAss]

Zongyongdaoist, I just wanted to mention that I very much appreciate all of your posts on TTBs, and definitely do hope you keep it up, as I learn something from each one, even if it is a back and forth like in this thread, your posts still teach something. So yes the effort is definitely worth it, at least I think so .

[BaguaKicksAss]

I can do a split and pit next week... though I feel the odd post stating why JAJ (or ANY author) isn't 100% super awesome, is important in any thread.... but don't need the book review to be 99% that sort of thing either... Of course if *I* split it, it is likely some would say "bias" and I'm not saying they would be wrong LOL. Any other staff have nothing to do for a couple of hours?

[Apech]

Aw man, I was trying to surprise you guys, as well as wait until all the questions and focus was done for the first person we are interviewing... Anyways, Dr. Johnson did say yes to an interview . More details to come in the interview section. Though I don't want to take the steam off the one we are already prepping for.... (also Dr. Johnson asked if we could be a bit patient as he's really busy right now).

 

 

Fantastic news ... looking forward to this ... might even end up buying his books (with a special loan from the bank LOL).

 

Thanks for contacting him BKA.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Aw man, I was trying to surprise you guys, as well as wait until all the questions and focus was done for the first person we are interviewing... Anyways, Dr. Johnson did say yes to an interview . More details to come in the interview section. Though I don't want to take the steam off the one we are already prepping for.... (also Dr. Johnson asked if we could be a bit patient as he's really busy right now).

 

Good, I will have to ask him about 'Jesus in his heart'. I suspect that he has a theologically more sophisticated approach than most people are familiar with.

 

Zongyongdaoist, I just wanted to mention that I very much appreciate all of your posts on TTBs, and definitely do hope you keep it up, as I learn something from each one, even if it is a back and forth like in this thread, your posts still teach something. So yes the effort is definitely worth it, at least I think so .

 

You and anyone else who appreciates my posts are certainly welcome. I try to post pertinent well thought out observations and it is time consuming, but if it useful to people, that is what matters.

[BaguaKicksAss]

I have started a new thread for the interesting derail we have come up with...

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/34524-is-jesus-legit-in-taoist-practice-or-no-off-topic-derail-from-the-jaj-neigong-book-thread/

[BaguaKicksAss]

We have started gathering questions for the Dr. Johnson interview, head on over to our Questions section of the Interviews area: http://thetaobums.com/forum/355-gathering-questions/

 

PS we are also gathering questions for the Ching Sun interview.

 

We are voting on the best questions via *likes* .

[Jox]

JAJ lately seems have been practicig Nyingma and tibetan Bon mysicizm ... http://daoistmagic.com/daoist-cv/

 

What is Nyingma and what is Bon, what is the stuff practitioners are thought in this systems?

[GrandmasterP]

http://thetaobums.com/topic/32456-lama-lar-short/

 

Dr Johnson cites Lama Lar for Bon.

Short TTB thread on that via that link.

 

Some Bon webcasts this month mentioned on DW....

Here....

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=16177&p=227325&hilit=Bon#p227325

 

More Bon here....

http://www.bonfoundation.org/aboutbon.html

 

Hope that helps.

Edited April 20, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[altiora]

Good, I will have to ask him about 'Jesus in his heart'. I suspect that he has a theologically more sophisticated approach than most people are familiar with.

 

 

You and anyone else who appreciates my posts are certainly welcome. I try to post pertinent well thought out observations and it is time consuming, but if it useful to people, that is what matters.

 

Yes I would think it good to have clarification as to what he means by having "Jesus in his heart". That other thread (which I dare not mention its name on this thread lest my post be "relocated") suffers from the fatal flaw that no one really knows what JAJ means, and some assume he takes some orthodox Christian approach -- which may or may not be the case.

 

A related question would be to ask what does he see as the ultimate goal of Nei Gong and the other practises contained in his books. Are they to allow us to negotiate this world better, to attain liberation, better health or all of the above and more. I think this question would throw more light on his view on Jesus in the context of Daoist alchemy. I would think an orthodox Christian would deny that Daoist alchemical practices can lead to the "Final Goal".

 

Finally, after almost a year of dithering, purchased JAJ's Alchemy book. Has been good timing; I've been practicing a form of spontaneous qigong I was taught some months ago (not "Kunlun" I might add), and the results have been incredible in developing qi and enhancing circulation. I now keen to start utilising this acquired qi for Shen Gong.

 

I would like to use the book for systematic practice. Does anyone have tips on how one can do this?

 

Guess I could just start at the first practice in the book and work myself forward over the months.

 

But I wondered if people found that some practises in the book were easier and/or more obviously beneficial, and would therefore be good places to start?

[Ryan94]

This (and what most of this forum talk about) seems to be some weird mixture of New Age, occult and folk superstition.

 

Demonic spirits?! Really? I thought people in the 21st century would be smarter than this. Laozi's teachings were more about common sense than chinese superstition.

 

I honestly won't be surprised if you lot start talking about UFO's and aliens next. Everything else has been covered.

 

P.S. Jesus can go fuck himself. Why are so many people quoting him? This is a taoist forum. (From the quote a few pages back, i wonder why he only wants 'little children' in heaven, LOL

Edited May 9, 2014 by Ryan94

[Ryan94]

Also, the link to the book returns as a 404. Where can i find the book described in the OP?