Daoist Alchemy: Jerry A. Johnson

[Ormus]

His works is related to Shang Qing Pai and this predates Nei Dan and I consider it proto Nei Dan or early formation stage of Inner Cultication Alchemy as reaction to Taiqing copurs of Wai Dan laboratory Alchemy described by Immortal Master Ge Hong.

 

Ormus

[MIchael80]

Hi Dawei!

 

I have the book.

 

Yes you summed it up well!

 

I meant that it is not neidan because he uses post-heaven work (visualizing) and that uses the post-heaven mind.

And neidan uses pre-heaven stuff which cannot be visulized. All the teachers i know said that is the fundamental neidan principle. the only sources (i know) who claim teaching neidan and do use visualization are johnson and chia/winn.

 

 

best

Michael

[Jox]

Then what about Tibetan yoga ... it is a lot of visualisation in it i think ... if that may be similar or correlated??? ...

Edited March 19, 2017 by Jox

[MIchael80]

Hi Jox!

 

I do not know tibetan yoga.

It is not that visualisations should not be used.......it is just that neidan does not use visualisations.

there are many visualisations techniques in daoism.

But to visualise something is to use the post heaven mind and neidan only works with the pre heaven stuff.

 

best

Michael

[qicat]

Hi Jox!

 

I do not know tibetan yoga.

It is not that visualisations should not be used.......it is just that neidan does not use visualisations.

there are many visualisations techniques in daoism.

But to visualise something is to use the post heaven mind and neidan only works with the pre heaven stuff.

 

best

Michael

 

mmmm

perhaps you talk about only some ( of many) meditations?

 

As it is already ingrained in my brain ( some super secret pose, teacher's voice "No intention, no cultivation, no visualizations, just let energy do it thing"). Specifically forbidden to use mind for anything... because qi flows much faster than thought, light, visuals, etc...

 

hope it helps...

[MIchael80]

Hi Qicat!

 

i do not know what you want to say or where you want to help. 

 

I wrote:

"there are many visualisation techniques in daoism." (so yes there are many Meditation techniques in daoism.....and they use visualisation).

 

however neidan is a very specific System that does not use post-heaven work. (visualisations) 

 

best

Michael

[qicat]

however neidan is a very specific System that does not use post-heaven work. (visualisations) 

 

 

yes... and...?

that's what I am saying, there is no viz attached...as taught in JAJ's lineages... am I reading your topic wrong?

[MIchael80]

I do not know his lineage qicat.

 

I have talked about his neigong book and there he has chapters about neidan and it is all with visualisations.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

I posted quite a bit in this thread earlier, most of which was in defense of Professor Johnson and his work, as well as his understanding of Neidan. I have watched the recent posts as they have developed from here:

Ormus February 27, 2017
 
and have thought of replying, but I have been very busy, and I also decided that it would be good to review my previous posts and look at some of the other posts which I have posted on Professor Johnson's work, before weighing in on the matter, and also to review my copy of his Daoist alchemy book. I have finished those preliminaries and I hope that I can clear up some of the problems here.

First of all, it is a big mistake to lump Professor Johnson with anything derived from Mantak Chia as is done here:
 

. . . the only sources (i know) who claim teaching neidan and do use visualization are johnson and chia/winn.

While certain aspects of Professor Johnson's material uses visualization like Chia does, he also has material, such as that dealing with Daoist ritual which goes way beyond anything in Chia, and deals with very advanced aspects of the cultivation methods of the Shangqing and Lingbao schools, which goes so far beyond anything that most people here can appreciate, that it is almost a waste of time to discuss them, though I may try to explain it and its relation to Neidan anyway. What material he does have that is like Chia's is best thought of as Weidan preparations for the deep meditations which are the basis of Neidan and a close reading of his work will reveal ample reason to support statements such as this:
 

mmmm
perhaps you talk about only some ( of many) meditations?

As it is already ingrained in my brain ( some super secret pose, teacher's voice "No intention, no cultivation, no visualizations, just let energy do it thing"). Specifically forbidden to use mind for anything... because qi flows much faster than thought, light, visuals, etc...

hope it helps... (Emphasis mine, ZYD)

Now qicat has not explicitly stated that she studies with Professor Johnson in this thread, but she did in her introductory thread, so simply based on that, it would be a good idea to take her word for what Professor Johnson teaches, I will simply agree with her, that he does understand the difference between Neidan and Weidan, however, I will also say that my overall impression at this time, is that he never makes that understanding completely clear in so many words in his books, so that someone who only possesses his books and has not dug into them deep enough, can be forgiven for believing that Professor Johnson believes that Neidan involves visualization and similar practices.
 
I have a lot of background in this dating back to the early 70s, and I have more that I could say, and consider this is just a preliminary post.  I hope to be able to say more shortly, but it will depend on how time works out for this.

[MIchael80]

Hi Zhongyongdaois!

 

Thanks for your reply!!

 

Again i do not know what he teaches in person i only desribed what is written in the nei gong book and there is in the neidan chapters only visualisations. If he does not share the "real stuff" ok but i talked about the book and this is what i also wrote to qicat.

 

I also did not compare (lump him) him with Chia......just stated that they all use visualisations.....never talked about effectivness of practice, "realness" of it etc.  It was just a tool describtion (that they use visualisation and declare it neidan).

[BaguaKicksAss]

Please understand that one really really needs to go train in person with someone to fully understand what is written.  The simple words which can be expressed in a book, or expanded upon in great detail in person.  Also, more advanced techniques beyond visualization are given after one has completed the more basic ones and not screwed themselves up.  Further, some things just aren't put it public, even by Johnson who puts more than most . 

 

Further, what may seem like a visualization, when taught in person, is much more than that.  If one is only at the level of visualization that is how they would read and understand it, but if they are at a level of more physical things, that is how they would read it.  Again though, in person please.  Doesn't have to be with JaJ obviously, but look for someone legit.  Book learning really isn't the way to advance very far or very well. 

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Please understand that one really really needs to go train in person with someone to fully understand what is written.  The simple words which can be expressed in a book, or expanded upon in great detail in person.  Also, more advanced techniques beyond visualization are given after one has completed the more basic ones and not screwed themselves up.  Further, some things just aren't put it public, even by Johnson who puts more than most . 

 

Further, what may seem like a visualization, when taught in person, is much more than that.  If one is only at the level of visualization that is how they would read and understand it, but if they are at a level of more physical things, that is how they would read it.  Again though, in person please.  Doesn't have to be with JaJ obviously, but look for someone legit.  Book learning really isn't the way to advance very far or very well.

Nice of you to drop by, I hope all is going well for you.

[Brian]

Please understand that one really really needs to go train in person with someone to fully understand what is written. The simple words which can be expressed in a book, or expanded upon in great detail in person. Also, more advanced techniques beyond visualization are given after one has completed the more basic ones and not screwed themselves up. Further, some things just aren't put it public, even by Johnson who puts more than most .

 

Further, what may seem like a visualization, when taught in person, is much more than that. If one is only at the level of visualization that is how they would read and understand it, but if they are at a level of more physical things, that is how they would read it. Again though, in person please. Doesn't have to be with JaJ obviously, but look for someone legit. Book learning really isn't the way to advance very far or very well.

Good to "see" you, BKA!

[Aetherous]

BKA is back!?!?