Taoist proof that we can't ignore

[exorcist_1699]

Taoism is the only religion ( if you prefer to view it as one) that requests proof as strict as what the Western science asks . It is good because although we are entitled to live as human , there is no guarantee that in next life , we can still live as something intelligent , not becoming a worm feeding on feces ; this life is something so short and precious that we can't afford to follow illusory practice or belief based on groundless claim.

Generally speaking , the Chinese Taoist alchemists talk a lot about physical proof, there are countless paragraph in Taoist writings that explicate them : Cure of diseases, reversion of the process of aging , making people more energetic...etc., here I just mention one saying famous :

"精足不思欲 , 氣足不思食 , 神足不思睡"

" Having accumulated enough jing (essence), you no longer think of sex; having accumulated enough qi, you no longer feel hungry; having accumulated enough Shen (spirit) , you no longer need to sleep "

which of course is referring to some kind of proof in every stage of our practice. So many of them existed that it seems no need for me to repeat them here; readers of this forum can test them themselves easily; In a word, methods that can't help you cure a disease, say a hemorrhoid , or fix a loosen tooth or smoothen some wrinkles on your face easily , should be thrown away...

However, besides physical ones, there are those spiritual ones that Taoism emphasizes yet never be requested by western science . The significance of it is while physical proofs are something easy to identify and measure , those spiritual ones are always difficult to evaluate.

The mentioned saying : "Having accumulated enough shen , you no longer need to sleep " should be one of them that looks spiritual related .However, spiritual thing is delicate and complicated, should we always go to see a master , like those mentioned in Zen Koans , and ask for an approval ?

My view is that if you get one near you , then it is fine; if there is no such person close by, there are other ways to judge . Although spiritual achievements of our practice can be sensed in many aspects of our life , a gradual growing , detaching Mind from the daily one is the main feature we should pay attention to ; just mention some of them here :

- You no longer always think of sex ( because of having accumulated enough jing which upgraded your shen );

- You no longer get angry so easily.. ( a bigger Mind of course is no longer entangled by trivial)

- Another "you " can look back and view a dreaming you...

- Whatever human knowledge, no matter how difficult it looked before , can now be understood by you easily despite the fact that it was something beyond your reach : Just choose one to test it yourself : Mathematical calculation of multi-dimensional space, programming the Linux kernel, or picking up a human language you thought so goddamned difficult ..etc .

- Your sensational abilities are no longer limited so strictly by spacial or time obstacles , the growing shen extends them to a much farther boundary. For example, you can hear murmurings clearly hundreds meters away... ( Warning: Boast of your supernatural ability or having your third-eye opened is a trap evil in character that you should never fall into.... )

- Rise of an uncontrollable drive and amazing eloquence in arguing with others ..( another evil trap , hazardous )

Edited September 16, 2013 by exorcist_1699

[xor]

This really resonated with me and I'm surprised there isn't any reply to this and more than ten pages on one scammer. Sadly I don't have anything to add at the moment yet other than a thank you and a bump to maybe catch peoples attention. You have basically said the thing that got me into daoism: proof and validation here, not in a next life/afterlife.

[C T]

Can function with little sleep, and hardly need or think about sex. The hunger part, not fully in control yet..

[ChiDragon]

"精足不思欲 , 氣足不思食 , 神足不思睡"

The abundance of Jing will not cause one to think about desire.
The abundance of Chi will not cause one to think about eating.
The abundance of Shen will not cause one to think about sleep.

These three cultivated conditions are the ultimate realm for a person to attain as an immortal.

Edited May 2, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Stosh]

I like the subtle differences, but the final ,,

 

conclusions are they ?

 

dont seem to follow inevitably , (as a conclusion ) any more than

 

Having abundant chi ,jing, and shen, doesnt neccessarily do any thing

 

having no desires or hunger or need for sleep are the benefits of the dead.

 

Detatched already from the physical ,( dead ), one has nothing to suffer

 

Which seem to stand as fact, on their own.

 

Since the thread says proofs in the title I deem it ok to say that all there.

but "proofs" dont neccessarily mean that the subject becomes proven

logically speaking , so if my comment doesnt fit with the use of the word proof

here just ignore it.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Stosh

[ChiDragon]

I like the subtle differences, but the final ,,

 

conclusions are they ?

 

dont seem to follow inevitably , (as a conclusion ) any more than

 

Having abundant chi ,jing, and shen, doesnt neccessarily do any thing

 

having no desires or hunger or need for sleep are the benefits of the dead.

 

Detatched already from the physical ,( dead ), one has nothing to suffer

 

"These three cultivated conditions are the ultimate realm for a person to attain as an immortal."

 

The key word is "immortal". Immortal is not human nor the dead.

 

 

PS....

The philosophy was only from the ancient Taoists with a religious point of view. It was all conceptual from the past. There is no physical evidence of proofs.

Edited May 2, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Stosh]

"These three cultivated conditions are the ultimate realm for a person to attain as an immortal."

 

The key word is "immortal". Immortal is not human nor the dead.

 

 

PS....

The philosophy was only from the ancient Taoists with a religious point of view. It was all conceptual from the past. There is no physical evidence of proofs.

Ok

[zerostao]

excellent post exorcist 1699,

very spot on exactly correct ime

on this forum when someone posts about true Taoism, the philosphocial taoists who do not grasp reality,

fumble over themself grasping at straws that make sense to them

 

" those spiritual ones are always difficult to evaluate. "

these also can be tested and should be tested. i challenge western science to examine this more closely,

but at their present level of science understanding, it must be too big a challenge for them.

[thelerner]

excellent post exorcist 1699,

very spot on exactly correct ime

on this forum when someone posts about true Taoism, the philosphocial taoists who do not grasp reality,

fumble over themself grasping at straws that make sense to them

 

" those spiritual ones are always difficult to evaluate. "

these also can be tested and should be tested. i challenge western science to examine this more closely,

but at their present level of science understanding, it must be too big a challenge for them.

It'd be easier if we had a couple of immortals to talk to and compare notes with, but they seem pretty rare these days. Are we talking about a religion where only a handful (1% of 1% of 1%) make it to the top?

 

Seems like I'd have an easier time getting an audience with the pope (singular, but he's real and I know where he lives) then an immortal. And its not like Taoist monasteries are packed w/ 200 year old monks.

 

I respect Taoism for the many fruits of its practice, but lets it keep it real.

Edited May 3, 2013 by thelerner

[ChiDragon]

on this forum when someone posts about true Taoism, the philosphocial taoists who do not grasp reality,

fumble over themself grasping at straws that make sense to them

 

Please explain....!!!

[zerostao]

"lets it keep it real"

did you read the OP?

"Are we talking about a religion where only a handful (1% of 1% of 1%) make it to the top?"

i dont even understand this question?

i have trouble with the word religion to begin with.

and the OP also points out this word > religion "religion ( if you prefer to view it as one"

making it to the top? what is that? i dont even understand that type of thinking.

make it to the top? then what? i am talking about recognizing the appearance of reality

 

"Seems like I'd have an easier time getting an audience with the pope (singular, but he's real and I know where he lives) then an immortal. And its not like Taoist monasteries are packed w/ 200 year old monks."

"if there is no such person close by, there are other ways to judge . Although spiritual achievements of our practice can be sensed in many aspects of our life , a gradual growing , detaching Mind from the daily one is the main feature we should pay attention to ;"

 

edit , to add the bold to exorcist 1699 posting

Edited May 3, 2013 by zerostao

[rainbowvein]

It'd be easier if we had a couple of immortals to talk to and compare notes with, but they seem pretty rare these days.

Where are you looking to meet them?

[exorcist_1699]

 

This really resonated with me and I'm surprised there isn't any reply to this and more than ten pages on one scammer. Sadly I don't have anything to add at the moment yet other than a thank you and a bump to maybe catch peoples attention. You have basically said the thing that got me into daoism: proof and validation here, not in a next life/afterlife.

 

 

 

Thanks your comment . Of course if there are more feed backs, then I will be happier; however, even if there is no feedback , I still can say to myself that I have done my job;

Maybe instead of talking about making "people think less of sex", I advocate Taoist ability of "enhancing people 's sex power " ( Of course, it really can), I will get more audience, but it is something succumbing to people's low level drive, opposite to Taoist jing-qi-shen way of uplifting people to a much higher level, which I am anyhow reluctant to do.

Edited May 4, 2013 by exorcist_1699

[xor]

Regarding philosophical daoism: You ofcourse take what you can use and discard the rest. If you don't have even subjective proof of something and aren't willing to experiment it's garbage to you.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Guest

[xor]

 

Maybe instead of talking about making "people think less of sex", I advocate Taoist ability of "enhancing people 's sex power " ( Of course, it really can), I will get more audience, but it is something succumbing to people's low level drive, opposite to Taoist jing-qi-shen way of uplifting people to a much higher level, which I am anyhow reluctant to do.

 

Doing retention moderately seems to increase sex drive. What's your approach to "sex power"?

[exorcist_1699]

excellent post exorcist 1699,

very spot on exactly correct ime

on this forum when someone posts about true Taoism, the philosphocial taoists who do not grasp reality,

fumble over themself grasping at straws that make sense to them

 

" those spiritual ones are always difficult to evaluate. "

these also can be tested and should be tested. i challenge western science to examine this more closely,

but at their present level of science understanding, it must be too big a challenge for them.

 

Hi, Zerostao, thanks.

 

Edited May 4, 2013 by exorcist_1699

[exorcist_1699]

Doing retention moderately seems to increase sex drive. What's your approach to "sex power"?

 

I think people's drive for enhancing "sex power " should be moderate and be controlled, otherwise in short run they seem get some benefit, but in long run they lose more..

Edited May 3, 2013 by exorcist_1699

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Where are you looking to meet them?

 

Reminded me of something I was reading today , which I would say is related to Taoism based on Liu Huayang saying in the Hui Ming Jing that Hui Neng was schooled in the Dao as well (Hui Ming Jing is major text of Wu-Liu Pai sect).

 

Excerpt from The Platform Sutra, Chapter Six, trans. by Charles Luk:

 

"Learned friends, you should look into yourselves and should not make wrong use of your self-minds. The (Avatamsaka) Sutra clearly says that one should surrender oneself to and rely on one's own Buddha. It does not say that one should surrender oneself to and rely on another Buddha. If you do not surrender yourself to your own Buddha, there will be no one on whom to rely. Now that you are self-awakened, each of you should surrender himself to and rely on the Triple Gem of his own mind. Within, the mind should be in harmony with the self-nature and without, other people should be respected. This is surrender to and reliance on one's own self.

 

.... in your own bodies, your self-nature possesses the Trikaya Buddha, which is begotten by your own nature and does not come from without."

[Harmonious Emptiness]

It'd be easier if we had a couple of immortals to talk to and compare notes with, but they seem pretty rare these days. Are we talking about a religion where only a handful (1% of 1% of 1%) make it to the top?

 

Seems like I'd have an easier time getting an audience with the pope (singular, but he's real and I know where he lives) then an immortal. And its not like Taoist monasteries are packed w/ 200 year old monks.

 

I respect Taoism for the many fruits of its practice, but lets it keep it real.

 

I would agree with this for the most part in regards to longevity. Nevertheless, Taoists still do things which defy all current science and accepted logic, on an hourly basis, every day, in various healing and other arts.

[thelerner]

"lets it keep it real"

did you read the OP?

"Are we talking about a religion where only a handful (1% of 1% of 1%) make it to the top?"

i dont even understand this question?

i have trouble with the word religion to begin with.

and the OP also points out this word > religion "religion ( if you prefer to view it as one"

making it to the top? what is that? i dont even understand that type of thinking.

make it to the top? then what? i am talking about recognizing the appearance of reality

 

"Seems like I'd have an easier time getting an audience with the pope (singular, but he's real and I know where he lives) then an immortal. And its not like Taoist monasteries are packed w/ 200 year old monks."

"if there is no such person close by, there are other ways to judge . Although spiritual achievements of our practice can be sensed in many aspects of our life , a gradual growing , detaching Mind from the daily one is the main feature we should pay attention to ;"

 

edit , to add the bold to exorcist 1699 posting

I read the OP, but was referring mostly to the answers that came after it. Did you read the post I put infront of my post? Goal of Taoism..to become immortal.(?) That's the 1% of 1% of 1% I was referring to. If Immortality is a goal of Taoism, I don't think we have many good living examples.

 

Where are you looking to meet them?

maybe starbucks if they're coffee drinkers, otherwise Teavana. Probably not over the internet. Seriously the place I'm likely to meet an immortal is.. during deep meditation or deep dreamwork, a 'dimension' where I couldn't be sure if they were real or my own creation.

[Wu Ming Jen]

Immortal, mortal like water and ice one minute one can be mortal and the next immortal and then can change back again so many times in a single lifetime. Religion can be for mortals who have lost their own way. What Taoist call immortality, Buddhist call enlightenment.

 

What makes a mortal, birth and death, beginning and end. What makes an immortal, no birth or death, no beginning or end. What is born and dies is the false self, self created. What does not die is the true self that can not be created or destroyed. How can one not be an immortal?

 

Everything is in reach if mind allows for it. Longevity is to live out one's natural years in comfort long or short life does not matter again that is mind ununified. Living in our temporary bodies forever as many think when they hear the word immortality is unnatural.

 

Proof is valid within our own selves. Just because we are discussing knowledge that comes from pre history, beginning before the I ching and before Lao Tzu wrote Tao Te Ching is amazing but not proof of anything.

 

Taoism is a living system not dead words.

[zerostao]

" during deep meditation or deep dreamwork, a 'dimension' where I couldn't be sure if they were real or my own creation."

i can relate to this. and it is one of the benefits,( having that level of discernment), of my initiation into XYP of TSM.

in TSM we have no gap between us. even with the GM.this is a basic characterisitic in TSM. we are all equal human. this is also an implementation of 'Xiao Yao'

"maybe starbucks if they're coffee drinkers, otherwise Teavana" lu dong bin met a Taoist immortal in a pub.

"Probably not over the internet" i reckon Taoists stay current, so i wouldnt totally rule anything out. maybe you wont meet the immortal on the net, but maybe you can find the access.

after my initiaon last june, i look at everything differently now

[exorcist_1699]

...................

 

maybe starbucks if they're coffee drinkers, otherwise Teavana. Probably not over the internet. Seriously the place I'm likely to meet an immortal is.. during deep meditation or deep dreamwork, a 'dimension' where I couldn't be sure if they were real or my own creation.

 

I can't understand why an immortal ,even returning from centuries ago , doesn't surf on the internet as ordinary people do : not knowing a foreign language ? Or, afraid of a modern men-made machine interface ?

 

Language barrier is the least obstacle to a guru ; when Damo, the Zen guru , also said to be an immortal , came to the Southern China from India by the Sixth Century , not long after he had gone ashore , he held a famous discussion with the emperor there about gong and te（功德）　. Never are we told that he brought along with him a translator or there was anyone knew the Indian language in the court of the dynasty...

 

I think an immortal likely is also a person with extraordinary ability in learning any foreign language .. :-)

Edited September 16, 2013 by exorcist_1699

[exorcist_1699]

Although Taoist jing-qi-shen way has its religious implication , its meaning is totally different from those western religions' which , despite our repeatedly explanation, sadly seem not to be understood by some people on this forum. To me, Taoist alchemy is more close to science than to religion , which can be manifested in :

1) its emphasize on proof;

2) the theoretical power of the jing -qi-shen framework;

Just like good theory in science can explain why those natural phenomena happen and predict the appearance of some other unknown ones, the importance of Taoist jing-qi-shen theory can help us solving many problems in our practice and predicting what will happen in next step ,including the arising hazards.

Instead of presenting some immortals to the crowd and ask them to act like clown playing magic before the people, I would rather introduce the really attentive audience the keys of the Taoist theory ( it doesn't necessarily mean my version is the only true one ) . It is through the proof experienced in their practice and the power of Taoist theory that people believe in the truth of Taoism , not by having viewed few so-called immortals with their old Birth Certificate waving in their hands . Besides, " the Saints and the ordinary always walk on different paths " (聖凡異路 ) , they seldom meet , so such kind of journalist view about the Taoist world can't grasp the reality..

Edited May 7, 2013 by exorcist_1699

[ChiDragon]

gong and te（功德）
　
It should read "gong te", no "and" in between.

功德: the virtue of merits.

It is the "given credit" to honor someone.

Edited May 7, 2013 by ChiDragon