The Principle and Logic of Tao Philosophy

[dynamictao]

I am proposing to discuss here the fundamental principle of reality and the logic (non-duality, oneness) of Tao philsophy. I feel this is the most fundamental approach to have a consistent understanding. My book (The Logic of Tao Philosophy) has been downloaded by 92 people, yesterday. I will continue to modify the book ( to improve on the writing, editing, etc.).

The principle of Lao-tzu is general and can be applied to many related areas. Any suggestion is welcome on setting this as a special topic?

 

(From the Book)

[The Principle of Oneness]

 

We may now summarize our discussion as a Principle. In Tao philosophy, Oneness or Nonduality is the base of all realities, so we may summarize the principle of Tao as The Principle of Oneness 恆一原則:

When we represent one reality Heng Tao by two true manifestations, Heng Wu and Heng Yu, the two manifestations will have opposite characteristics, but they are equivalent representations of the same reality. Both manifestations appear at the same time. As a reality, each of the two true manifestations will cover the same whole domain of the reality.

To describe the two true manifestations, we define two opposite objects, Wu and Yu, to represent the opposite parts of the whole domain. These objects belong to separate sub-domains. However, these objects participate in the formation of actual manifestations. Therefore, each manifestation, as a whole, will comprise simultaneously of both parts, with a strict principle to reconstruct its wholeness.

When we express the true manifestations in terms of the objects, the objects will be vague and the manifestations will appear with self-contradictory and indeterminate objects. Such ambiguity and vagueness is inherently the profound and mysterious nature of reality in the phenomenal world.

According to this Principle of Oneness, any “division” of a reality will result in “multiple” equivalent manifestations of the same reality. A reality is thus indivisible. Each “part” will still reflect the “whole.” The Oneness or Nonduality of Tao appears as a pair of Dualistic Realities in the world.

The Principle of Oneness is a general law of Oneness or Nonduality. The logical participation of the parts in the whole is an ancient philosophical problem. Our systematic model may also be applied to address this common philosophical problem.

Edited May 2, 2013 by dynamictao

[ChiDragon]

"The Oneness or Nonduality of Tao appears as a pair of Dualistic Realities in the world."

I still cannot get over your idea of "Oneness or Nonduality of Tao". Then, you've contradicted yourself with "Nonduality of Tao appears as a pair of Dualistic Realities in the world."

[rene]

CD - it might be in this case, "Nonduality of Tao" is referring to the unboundariedness of Tao, i.e., that the whole is still within the parts and the parts are still within the whole. All, same time. (-:

 

warm regards

[dynamictao]

"The Oneness or Nonduality of Tao appears as a pair of Dualistic Realities in the world."

 

I still cannot get over your idea of "Oneness or Nonduality of Tao". Then, you've contradicted yourself with "Nonduality of Tao appears as a pair of Dualistic Realities in the world."

We may say that there is a "(metaphysical) reailty" this is One (Tao). We use Wu and Yu as well-defined concepts to describe how Tao works, but these two (Wu and Yu) are dualistic, so they can not represent Tao. Therefore Lao-tzu introduces "Heng Wu" and "Heng Yu" as two realistic ways of looking at Tao. That is why I call these two (manifestations of Tao) as the dual realistic representations of Tao.

We can look at the world now in these two ways withour losing reality. The reality is the principle of Tao. These two ways are two reasonable ways of looking the principle of Tao.

 

The two manifestations (Heng Wu and Heng Yu) are equal in representing the principle of Tao. These two are not really two, since, as far as representing the reality, they are equal ("ontologically equivalent"). They have the same wholeness of Tao.

Edited May 2, 2013 by dynamictao

[dynamictao]

CD - it might be in this case, "Nonduality of Tao" is referring to the unboundariedness of Tao, i.e., that the whole is still within the parts and the parts are still within the whole. All, same time. (-:

 

warm regards

It is so nice that you can spend some time here. I am sure you can contribute and help me honest here.

I feel that my new books are pointing to a valid resoluation, but I need to re-work them (Updates are easy to make, since they are eBooks and POD). I hope to get some discussions. That will certainly help in my updates.

 

Wayne

[ChiDragon]

We may say that there is a "(metaphysical) reailty" this is One (Tao). We use Wu and Yu as well-defined concepts to describe how Tao works, but these two (Wu and Yu) are dualistic, so they can not represent Tao. Therefore Lao-tzu introduces "Heng Wu" and "Heng Yu" as two realistic ways of looking at Tao. That is why I call these two (manifestations of Tao) as the dual realistic representations of Tao.

We can look at the world now in these two ways withour losing reality. The reality is the principle of Tao. These two ways are two reasonable ways of looking the principle of Tao.

 

The two manifestations (Heng Wu and Heng Yu) are equal in representing the principle of Tao. These two are not really two, since, as far as representing the reality, they are equal ("ontologically equivalent"). They have the same wholeness of Tao.

 

In the Tao Te Ching, the are Tao and tao. Tao is a proper noun; and tao is a principle. The use "Wu and Yu as well-defined concepts to describe how Tao works" It seems to me Chapter one use Wu and You to describe the appearance of Tao instead of how Tao works. Based on your thinking, how does Tao work to you.....???

Edited May 2, 2013 by ChiDragon

[rene]

 

CD - this is my idea of how Tao tao-s. Can you share your idea with us?

 

warm regards

 

 

p.s... This is a diagram I made years ago, before I heard the terms 'dual/non-dual' or 'wu/yu'. Please mentally insert "Wu & Non-dual" into the Mystery circle, and "Yu/You & Dual" into the Manifest circle. Tks!

Edited May 2, 2013 by rene

[rene]

It is so nice that you can spend some time here. I am sure you can contribute and help me honest here.

I feel that my new books are pointing to a valid resoluation, but I need to re-work them (Updates are easy to make, since they are eBooks and POD). I hope to get some discussions. That will certainly help in my updates.

 

Wayne

 

So delighted to see you again (-: I look forward to reading your latest work and I'd be happy to help what little I can. If nothing else, I can post pretty pictures and diagrams. LOL I'll check your website for a larger version of the diagram you're using as an Avatar.

 

Warm regards.

Rene

Edited May 2, 2013 by rene

[voidisyinyang]

Yeah Wayne your book is cool -- I take it you have a physics degree from M.I.T. or obviously some science degree?

 

So you state that there is a symmetry in the dualism but I think this maybe a misunderstanding due to Western mathematics being based on symmetry - normally.

 

I read a book on fractals by Charles Madden - he points out that actually the Tai Chi symbol is not symmetric due to the different black/white variation within each half of the symbol.

 

So actually I rely for a Western analysis on quantum math is which is not symmetric or more precise non-commutative.

 

People wonder how the nondualism can "split" into duality but yet retain the nondual wholeness -- I actually wrote a masters thesis on this topic of nonduality but I use music as the model.

 

So actually if you study Taoism it is stated that the Perfect Fifth music interval is yang and the perfect fourth music interval is yin.

 

This may seem not very important but actually the foundation of Western symmetric math comes from nonwestern music - from Pythagorean philosophy which formally is equivalent to the nondualism of Taoism.

 

I have a blog post on this which gives more details -- http://fulllotusqigong.blogspot.com/2012/11/non-commutative-resonance-quantum.html

 

O.K. so from experience when qigong master Chunyi Lin teaches the Tai Chi symbol meaning for his Level 3 class -- he says that the basic teaching is

"use your consciousness to go into the Emptiness and keep it simple."

 

The consciousness is the sine wave inside the circle which is the Emptiness.

 

From a nondual perspective - this was in 2000 -- I was really confused because I wondered what is the difference between "consciousness" and the Emptiness if reality is really non-dualistic.

 

So it took me several years to resolve this and I realized that reality is not symmetric logic but it is like the time-frequency uncertainty principle in quantum physics - we always already exist in the Emptiness which I think of like a spacetime vortex but it is also awareness - formless awareness.

 

So the consciousness is spirit light energy and it is our sense of self even though we in the modern left-brain dominant reality are cut off from this spirit light energy except when dreaming - anyway so this spirit light consciousness goes into the Emptiness which is a spacetime vortex that secretly guides the light. Formless awareness is outside of spacetime itself - so this guiding process is a "pilot wave" as quantum physicist de Broglie calls it - so it guides from the future into the past, or into the future from the past, etc.

 

O.K. so this process is eternal and therefore nondualistic - we can not escape from the Tao but at the same time we can only logically infer the existence of the Tao as the Emptiness - this is even proven in quantum physics as Dr. Bernard D'Espagnat points out. I mention this in the blogpost I linked - just scroll down.

 

Anyway so this goes back to the yin and yang as music intervals - because nonwestern music is also non-commutative! It is just like the time-frequency uncertainty principle of quantum physics.

 

I have written a book on this but it's more of a personal reference source as the information is convoluted and not clearly presented. But anyway the book is freely available on my blog - but it has some 735 scholarly footnotes. haha.

 

I'm not saying that quantum physics is somehow equivalent to Taoism - quite the opposite. In my opinion quantum physics is the opposite extreme of Taoism (or real nondualistic philosophy).... so dialectically the opposite extremes then merge again in their common ground of the nondualistic Empty source.

 

This is why paranormal science can not be "proven" satisfactorily according to mainstream science, etc. - it is this fundamental issue of Western math relying on symmetric closed circular logic due to dualistic language structure, among other issues.

 

So yeah I agree with your agreement overall that Taoism is an example of a nondualistic philosophy -- but I do think there are some key differences with say some of the closed tautologies of Brahmin mind yoga -- jnana philosophy as "I am that I am" for example. There is a turning point in ancient philosphy -- which gets into ritual sacrifice and ritual geometry and left-brain logic used for geometry to create warfare technology -- these are the hoary origins of Western science. So for example the chariot wheel came out of the ritual sacrifice priests using a form of the Pythagorean Theorem back around 3000 BCE as math professor Abraham Seidenberg gets into.

 

Anyway -- you mention Platonic philosophy a bit - and my book goes into that also - I'll grab a reference that you probably already know - I didn't check your references for it...

 

Early China/ancient Greece: thinking through comparisons (2002) by Steven Shankman

 

so that's a good one....

 

Steven Shankman, “These Three Come Forth Together But are Differently Named: Laozi, Zhuangzi, Plato,” in
Early China/ancient Greece: thinking through comparisons by Steven Shankman, Stephen W. Durrant (SUNY
Press, 2002).

 

Knowing words: wisdom and cunning in the classical traditions of China
and Greece by Lisa Ann Raphals

 

Lisa Ann Raphals, Knowing words: wisdom and cunning in the classical traditions of China and
Greece (Cornell University Press, 1992), p. 18.

 

The book
The Tao and the Logos : literary hermeneutics, East and West by Chang, Lung-hsi (1992)

 

O.K. I go into great discussion of a deep critique of Platonic philosophy in the context of nonwestern, Nondualism -- in my book.

[dynamictao]

 

In the Tao Te Ching, the are Tao and tao. Tao is a proper noun; and tao is a principle. The use "Wu and Yu as well-defined concepts to describe how Tao works" It seems to me Chapter one use Wu and You to describe the appearance of Tao instead of how Tao works. Based on your thinking, how does Tao work to you.....???

In my interpretation, Wu means "without making differentiation of the myriad things.' That is one way of looking at the myriad things, or "That is one way the principle of Tao works - not to differentiate the myriad things"

The second way is the opposite by "making complete differentiation - treating each one differently."

 

But Tao does not treating the myriad things in these two opposite ways. In reality, when Tao treats the myriad things without differentiation, it still sees the myriad things. This is the way of Heng Wu. It is an impartial act which still recognizes the individuals. Same descriptions apply to Yu and Heng Yu.

 

We have a terminology convention here. We may say Heng Wu and Heng Yu are (1) two different manifestations of Tao, (2) different ways that the principle of Tao is manifestated. I look at the different Chapters of the TTC as different ways of describing the principle of Tao, so I try to find how Lao-tzu uses Wu and Yu (or any other two opposites) to describe the principle of Tao.

 

From the way Lao-tzu uses words to describe the principle of Tao, we identify his logic.

 

 

That is, it is not a blanket sweeping act that ignore the individuals.

[dynamictao]

Yeah Wayne your book is cool -- I take it you have a physics degree from M.I.T. or obviously some science degree?

 

So you state that there is a symmetry in the dualism but I think this maybe a misunderstanding due to Western mathematics being based on symmetry - normally.

 

I read a book on fractals by Charles Madden - he points out that actually the Tai Chi symbol is not symmetric due to the different black/white variation within each half of the symbol.

 

So actually I rely for a Western analysis on quantum math is which is not symmetric or more precise non-commutative.

 

I will have to digest your long comments. I am very glad that we have interesting discussions.

 

About "symmetry," the Tai Chi diagram is a special kind of "symmetry" that we need to define in more details.

We may call it "bipolar symmetry" or "bipolar asymmetry." It is not a simple symmetry. The logic cannot be represented in the Venn diagram which is two dimensional. I have been trying to find a non-Vennian diagram ( anyone can help?).

 

In physics, we start with a symmetric "Wu" and "Yu", with interactions, we have the Tai Chi diagram, resulting is a "symmetry" that is twisted or connected internally. We all know two equivalent universes connected through the "worm holes". It is that type of symmetry, we have. Anyway, I need a more accurate name for this. Thanks.

 

I will address other points in the next few posts.

[dynamictao]

So actually I rely for a Western analysis on quantum math is which is not symmetric or more precise non-commutative.

 

People wonder how the nondualism can "split" into duality but yet retain the nondual wholeness -- I actually wrote a masters thesis on this topic of nonduality but I use music as the model.

 

So actually if you study Taoism it is stated that the Perfect Fifth music interval is yang and the perfect fourth music interval is yin.

 

This may seem not very important but actually the foundation of Western symmetric math comes from nonwestern music - from Pythagorean philosophy which formally is equivalent to the nondualism of Taoism.

 

I have a blog post on this which gives more details -- http://fulllotusqigong.blogspot.com/2012/11/non-commutative-resonance-quantum.html

 

I will have to review the non-commutative properties of the quatum operators. I am tempering on the idea of looking at many scientific and mathematical agian to see what I think now (with the logic of Tao philosophy). I will check on your blog. It should be interesting.

[rene]

re non-Vennian.. how 'bout a sphere?

 

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/28138-ambigrams-and-the-tao/

 

from post #9 in that thread

New poster. Just joined. Very cool stuff.

 

 

[lienshan]

Therefore Lao-tzu introduces "Heng Wu" and "Heng Yu" as two realistic ways of looking at Tao.

You (and not Laozi) introduces "Heng Wu" and "Heng Yu" ... here's my explanation of the Mawangdui chapter 1 grammar:

 

恆無欲也 heng wu yu ye

恆有欲也 heng you yu ye

 

The two 也 characters mark the three preceeding characters as subject noun phrases that'll say:

 

The eternity and the nondesire / The eternity without desire

The eternity and the desire / The eternity with Desire

 

 

道可道也非恆道也

 

The grammar of the first line is the standard formula X 也非 Y 也 it's X it isn't Y

可 marks the following character as a verb

非 marks the following character as a noun

 

It's a tao or to tao it isn't the eternity and the tao

[dynamictao]

People wonder how the nondualism can "split" into duality but yet retain the nondual wholeness -- I actually wrote a masters thesis on this topic of nonduality but I use music as the model.

 

O.K. so from experience when qigong master Chunyi Lin teaches the Tai Chi symbol meaning for his Level 3 class -- he says that the basic teaching is

 

"use your consciousness to go into the Emptiness and keep it simple."

 

The consciousness is the sine wave inside the circle which is the Emptiness.

 

From a nondual perspective - this was in 2000 -- I was really confused because I wondered what is the difference between "consciousness" and the Emptiness if reality is really non-dualistic.

 

So it took me several years to resolve this and I realized that reality is not symmetric logic but it is like the time-frequency uncertainty principle in quantum physics - we always already exist in the Emptiness which I think of like a spacetime vortex but it is also awareness - formless awareness.

 

So the consciousness is spirit light energy and it is our sense of self even though we in the modern left-brain dominant reality are cut off from this spirit light energy except when dreaming - anyway so this spirit light consciousness goes into the Emptiness which is a spacetime vortex that secretly guides the light. Formless awareness is outside of spacetime itself - so this guiding process is a "pilot wave" as quantum physicist de Broglie calls it - so it guides from the future into the past, or into the future from the past, etc.

 

O.K. so this process is eternal and therefore nondualistic - we can not escape from the Tao but at the same time we can only logically infer the existence of the Tao as the Emptiness - this is even proven in quantum physics as Dr. Bernard D'Espagnat points out. I mention this in the blogpost I linked - just scroll down.

 

Anyway so this goes back to the yin and yang as music intervals - because nonwestern music is also non-commutative! It is just like the time-frequency uncertainty principle of quantum physics.

Glad that you got through a similar process of unifying dualism and nondualism.

To me, it was the whole story. That is why I wrote the article for Tamkang Journal and the present books.

I feel that most people are ready. The idea is not new. We can start from Parmenides (but he was quite misunderstood, like Lao-tzu). A more recent one is Schelling. I believe that many others are saying the same thing.

It also takes me many, many years to realize that. I believe that is advocated by Lao-tzu, too.

[dynamictao]

You (and not Laozi) introduces "Heng Wu" and "Heng Yu" ... here's my explanation of the Mawangdui chapter 1 grammar:

 

恆無欲也 heng wu yu ye

恆有欲也 heng you yu ye

 

The two 也 characters mark the three preceeding characters as subject noun phrases that'll say:

 

The eternity and the nondesire / The eternity without desire

The eternity and the desire / The eternity with Desire

 

 

道可道也非恆道也

 

The grammar of the first line is the standard formula X 也非 Y 也 it's X it isn't Y

可 marks the following character as a verb

非 marks the following character as a noun

 

It's a tao or to tao it isn't the eternity and the tao

 

Most people will agree with your interpretations. If it helps, there is no reason to change.

I happend to have a different view now. I just share the simple way to arrive at the logic structure that has helped me.

 

If we remove Chapter 1 of the Tao Te Ching, the logic structure still stands.

So, it may not be important how we interpret Chapter 1 (Heng Wu, etc.) after we understand his logic.

We can still see the logic in other chapters.

Edited June 14, 2013 by dynamictao

[dynamictao]

re non-Vennian.. how 'bout a sphere?

 

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/28138-ambigrams-and-the-tao/

 

from post #9 in that thread

New poster. Just joined. Very cool stuff.

 

Ambigram is a good name for it. I will check it.

How do we draw two universes connected through worm holes?

[rene]

How do we draw two universes connected through worm holes?

 

Lemme think on that for a while......

[ChiDragon]

 

CD - this is my idea of how Tao tao-s. Can you share your idea with us?

 

warm regards

 

 

p.s... This is a diagram I made years ago, before I heard the terms 'dual/non-dual' or 'wu/yu'. Please mentally insert "Wu & Non-dual" into the Mystery circle, and "Yu/You & Dual" into the Manifest circle. Tks!

 

The way I understand it, the duality are two things which are complementary to each other. I can understand that "dual/non-dual" as complements by themselves, logic wise. However, the term "Wu & non-dual" does not register in my logical mind. In addition, what is "Yu/You", is it 有...??? Why do you think that Dual is in connection with them, I see no correlation between them. Finally, what's duality to me, in Chapter One, are Wu(無) and You(有).

 

The diagram looks good, it resembles the duality of Wu and You in Chapter One which correspond the Concept of Yin-Yang in the Yi Jing. However, I would prefer to replace "Mystery" with "Wu" and replace "Manifest" with "You" to have a much clear picture.

Edited May 3, 2013 by ChiDragon

[lienshan]

I happend to have a different view now.

I just share the simple way to arrive at the logic structure that has helped me.

When You say I and not Laozi, then I find Your logic structure very interesting!

[voidisyinyang]

The Klein Bottle is the secret of full lotus alchemy - the upper tan tien energy feeds back into the lower tan tien via the heart hand channels - what I called the "yan xin secret" - hands in front of the lower tan tien -- reflects the third eye energy back into the lower tan tien...

 

Formally the Klein Bottle can not be visualized as it's 4-D space.

 

The point is that you can not visualize nonduality - you can Listen to it though - this is called Mouna Samadhi or as it's stated - The Tao can not be spoken of.

 

 

 

The Klein bottle is a shape that by virtue of the zero dimension point, has been

considered a mathematical topology that is unable to be created satisfactorily as any

material used to pass through the singularity, breaches the possibility of having zero

dimension.

For the purposes of this paper and due to the findings from my research that

I have outlined below, I have chosen to focus on actual models that simplify the

structure so as to illustrate the motion of the whole of its body passing through this zero

environment creating a cyclic motion.

I corresponded with this author maybe 7 years ago....

http://www.herdsa.org.au/wp-content/uploads/conference/1999/pdf/Purcell.PDF

 

 

As a

correspondence to the dynamic depiction of opposite complementarities it is possible to

consider the Yin Yang symbol to be a two dimensional depiction of the Klein bottle.

1

 

Edited May 3, 2013 by pythagoreanfulllotus

[rene]

CD hi

 

re:

 

"In addition, what is "Yu/You", is it 有...??? - yes.

 

re:

 

Why do you think that Dual is in connection with them, I see no correlation between them.

 

To me, dualities occur in the manifest - and at the time, the word 'Manifest' represented You(有) for me. In similar manner, to me, 'Mystery' associates with non-dual, and Wu(無).

 

I first created this diagram back in 1977, with pen and paper after reading the TTC (F/E) for the first time...so all I had were the words mystery and manifest. The above digital rendition of the diagram was made in the 90's, in Paint, lol. It was years later that I learned the other terms.

 

re:

..., I would prefer to replace "Mystery" with "Wu" and replace "Manifest" with "You" to have a much clear picture.

 

Please do, lol That's why I put the p.s. in the post - so you could get 'Wu' and 'You' up there in the right circles. (-:

Edited May 3, 2013 by rene

[rene]

 

I wasn't able to find a larger image of this on your website... so I zoomed in on your Avatar to read the words...and guess what! If you merge together your Wu and Yu rectangles - bang! - you get the circles in circle item on mine - bang! - and the underlying structure of the diagrams are identical! Seems we were both pointing at the same thing in only slightly different ways.

 

fun stuff (-:

[voidisyinyang]

http://www.soundofstars.org/brainnews.htm

 

 

Time stops when light itself is experienced and the light bends space by reversing time whereby matter is recreated as well.

 

Yeah that's my old "Open Loop" blogpost.

[dynamictao]

I have written a book on this but it's more of a personal reference source as the information is convoluted and not clearly presented. But anyway the book is freely available on my blog - but it has some 735 scholarly footnotes. haha.

 

I'm not saying that quantum physics is somehow equivalent to Taoism - quite the opposite. In my opinion quantum physics is the opposite extreme of Taoism (or real nondualistic philosophy).... so dialectically the opposite extremes then merge again in their common ground of the nondualistic Empty source.

 

This is why paranormal science can not be "proven" satisfactorily according to mainstream science, etc. - it is this fundamental issue of Western math relying on symmetric closed circular logic due to dualistic language structure, among other issues.

You must have done a lot. I hope you can share. I will go to your site.

I haven't updated my site (www.dynamictao.com) for many years.

 

In my model, quantum physics ( or all physics) is at the object level, where you maintain the objects and their interactions to describe the "reality." So you have "particle" and "wave" and "entanglement of objects" etc. Lao-tzu tries to maintain the actual level (with realities), so there is no attachments to the objects. However, Lao-tzu still have to use objects to describe the actualities. That is why I say that he is not really against using objects (words) to describe Tao.

 

It is well established that we are hampered by our language. Even in quantum theory, we still don't have words for "particle with some wave property." So call it "wavicle." But it is not a word. If that is a word, how about "partclave???" So quantum is also stuck in words.