laozi's duality: both, at the same time

[lienshan]

one can't simply translate ancient Chinese and hope that it is in any way right!

 

The return of the heaven and the earth was a mutual assistence,

because of that completing the spirits and the light.

The return of the spirits and the light was a mutual assistence,

because of that completing the yin and the yang.

 

The character 神 that I've translated as "the spirits" is much schorlarly debated in this text.

There's no contemporary dictionary available so the scholars have many different suggestions.

I'm not a scholar so I read other contemporary texts written by someone with a similar point of view:

 

神也者妙萬物而為言者也

 

This is the opening line of the Shuo Gua §6 in the Book of Changes (I Ching).

This is a clearcut, written around 325 BC, definition of what the character 神 meant at that time.

Edited May 4, 2013 by lienshan

[dawei]

神也者妙萬物而為言者也

 

This is the opening line of the Shuo Gua §6 in the Book of Changes (I Ching).

This is a clearcut, written around 325 BC, definition of what the character 神 meant at that time.

 

While I do think it is useful to look at the other usages, all we can say is that it is clear for the writer who write this text... and it may not mean what another wrote in another text; particularly if we also look at if we're talking about northern vs southern authors or influences too. But again, It is worthwhile to see the uses.

[lienshan]

"a spirit is oneness and everything but has spoken" was the contemporary definition of 神

 

I think, that Laozi knew this definition when he wrote this chapter 42 line:

 

Everything carries Yin on the shoulder and embraces Yang.

 

as a humorous commentary to:

 

The return of the spirits and the light was a mutual assistence,
because of that completing the yin and the yang.

Edited May 4, 2013 by lienshan

[Stosh]

The stage and play

Edited May 5, 2013 by Stosh

[flowing hands]

Very true for when/if we only rely on the 'word/character' for understanding, regardless of time or language.

 

The good news is, as you surely must know, there is so much more that also comes in through what is written.

 

Do you not see the common essence that underlies: "... light from darkness, sparkle, light within darkness, mysterious light in the void, pointed light that never fails, bright light, sky light, small light, unknown light, light out of darkness, Immortal spirit, spirit light, sage, etc etc" ?

 

I do. (-:

 

Allowing all information to inform means allowing all information to inform. I'd think a mystical fella like yourself would be the first to agree.

 

warm regards

 

 

There enters the great confusion and knowledge of the way and obscurity to true enlightenment! Some may say breaking bricks or studying Mopai level whatever is. The ancients saw the world in a different way. How they described it and perceived it is most important for us now, so we have real understanding. They were simple and had little to distract them, unlike us today.

Therefore true words are important so that we may all know 'Dao Xin' 'the path of the heart', or 'the heart of the way' 'the heart to enlightenment', 'the spirit of the way' That last one really is loosing its meaning (I could go on, it is difficult to translate it the right way!!!)

 

Your mystical fella friend!

[lienshan]

The ancients saw the world in a different way.

How they described it and perceived it is most important for us now, so we have real understanding.

They were simple and had little to distract them, unlike us today.

 

Watch out ... the most ancient sport in China is making things look more ancient than they really are:

 

From ancient times the composition of the sages!

The gloomy assistence is in the Spirits and the Minds then gives birth to the consultation of the yarrowstalks.

Heaven 3 Earth 2 then rely on the numbers.

Observe movements Yin Yang then establish fortune telling.

The manipulation of design is in the Hardness Softness then gives birth to the hexagrams.

The arrangement of harmony is in Tao Te then the logic is in the rigtheousness.

The lack of logic without disposition does arrive in an instruction.

 

My translation of Shuo Gua §1 (I Ching 8th wing) is kept in a very litteral mode in order to show,

that the chinese text is written in the 1100 BC language but contains 335 BC terms and phrases.

Scholars consider the text as the oldest layer of I Ching but:

 

The generous Zhou Emperor Xian (368-321 BC) wanted a scholarly commentary to the I Ching.

Shen Dao from the Huang Lao (taoist) School and a confucian from the Ru School were engaged.

Shen Dao wrote §1 and number 1 was ofcourse the Great One.

That's why Heaven got the next odd number 3 and Earth the first even number 2.

He did too write §3 were the numbers are explained as counted backwards.

 

I know I Ching as my own pocket and his numbering has no connection with anything in I Ching.

His agenda was to contruct a compromize between the Zhou TianDi belief and the Huang Lao taoism.

And he could afterwards refer to I Ching as the proof that the Huang Lao thoughts were very very ancient.

 

Tao bears 1, 1 bears 2, 2 bears 3, 3 bears everything have thus this numerologic meaning:

 

Tao bears the Great One

the Great One bears the Earth

the Earth bears the Heaven

the Heaven bears everything

[lienshan]

Shen Dao wrote §1 and number 1 was ofcourse the Great One.

That's why Heaven got the next odd number 3 and Earth the first even number 2.

He did too write §3 were the numbers are explained as counted backwards.

 

The numerology is counted backwards in the original Guodian version of chapter 25:

 

Heaven (3) is Great, Earth (2) is Great, Tao (1) is Great, and the King is also Great.

 

The later not that ancient versions have changed the order into:

 

Therefore the Dao is great. Heaven is great. Earth is great. The Ten Thousand Things are great.

 

The Great One gives birth to Water is in the Guodian chapter 25 described by one single character:

 

潰 which means a dam failure

[lienshan]

The Great One gives birth to water is nothing but pure Huang Lao opportuneness!

The Zhou Kings worshipped Tian which easily could be defined as the Great One.
The Milky Way was their celestrial river complement to the earthly Yellow River.

Edited May 6, 2013 by lienshan

[Stosh]

潰

All hell breaks loose

[dawei]

The Great One gives birth to Water is in the Guodian chapter 25 described by one single character:

 

潰 which means a dam failure

 

Where is the character from?

 

And that would negate the basic meaning of both texts; this is a one-directional connotation.

 

It may work for most other cosomologies like the Huainanzi... but not the TYSS. JMO

[lienshan]

Where is the character from?

 

And that would negate the basic meaning of both texts;

 

潰 "a dam failure" is the character from Nina Correa's photographs of the Guodian bamboo slips.

 

折 "to break into two parts" is the Chinese Text Project's interpretation of the Guodian character.

 

筮 "to divine by yarrowstalks" is the character in both Mawangdui versions.

 

逝 "to depart / to die" is the character in the Received version.

 

 

I read the characters in the texts as is.

My eyes are ofcourse coloured by my own take on all these cosmologies.

They have all in common the problem of explaining the step from the Great One to the duality.

Oneness, Emptiness, Wholeness, Voidness etc. etc. are thus in my opinion bluff-words.

The duality of Tao and Te is enough to my understanding of what can't be explained.

Edited May 10, 2013 by lienshan

[dawei]

潰 "a dam failure" is the character from Nina Correa's photographs of the Guodian bamboo slips.

 

折 "to break into two parts" is the Chinese Text Project's interpretation of the Guodian character.

 

筮 "to divine by yarrowstalks" is the character in both Mawangdui versions.

 

逝 "to depart / to die" is the character in the Received version.

 

Ok, I see. I'm not quite seeing the 'bursting forth' aspect as a part of the meaning of this chapter or TYSS but the Huainanzi cosmology comes closer with a kind of opening of heaven and pouring forth of all things.

 

Hendrick's has an interesting discussion on this 'yet unidentified' character and gives one possibility as "Source" (源) as this would fit the yuan rime going on in these lines; and the middle line usually defines the groups rime. The problem is that it doesn't fit with the graphic you are referring to. The MWD seems to fit the Guodian graphic better.

[lienshan]

The Great One gave birth to the water.
The return of the water assisted the Great One,
because of that completing the heaven.

 

The great one is called a dam failure.

The dam failure is called a remoteness.

The remoteness is called a return.

 

("one" was unexpressed in pre-Qin classical chinese accoding to Pulleyblank)

[dawei]

The Great One gave birth to the water.

The return of the water assisted the Great One,

because of that completing the heaven.

 

The great one is called a dam failure.

The dam failure is called a remoteness.

The remoteness is called a return.

 

("one" was unexpressed in pre-Qin classical chinese accoding to Pulleyblank)

 

When do you date the TYSS? Doesn't that appear to be pre-Qin?

 

Sarah Allen points out the TYSS is almost one century before the Qin and Great One "was the defining feature of the schools of Guanyin and Lao Dan". 'Great One' is also in the cosmology described by the Spring and Autumn and the Book of Rites.

 

There seems little doubt that "Da Yi" and even "Heng Yi" are pre-Qin. SO not sure what is unexpressed in pre-Qin?

[lienshan]

When do you date the TYSS?

 

SO not sure what is unexpressed in pre-Qin?

Ta Yi Sheng Shui is invented 342-324 BC while Shen Dao was teacher at the Jixia Academy during the reign of king Xuan. Shen Dao was simultaneously engaged to write commentaries to the Book of Changes by the Zhou king Xian (368-321 BC). The Guodian Ta Yi Sheng Shui text is Laozi's commentary to Shen Dao's cosmology. Line three is the proof; it's sarcastic!

 

What's unexpressed is "The great one is called a dam failure." that'll say the "one" in the Tao Te Ching chapter 25.

All translators but LaFargue seem to be unaware of this grammar rule and do only translate the adjective "great".

 

.................................................................

 

Water does too occur (implicit) in the four last lines of chapter 25

 

FA : to regulate / a regulation / to rule / a law

 

The right part of the character means: to get rid of and the left part means Water

 

Man regulates Earth

Earth regulates Heaven

Heaven regulates Tao

Tao regulates self-fulfilling

 

The alternative way of reading is to regard the four sentences as rethorical questions,

which was made by reverting the subject and the predicate of a sentence in classical chinese.

 

Is Earth the regulation of Man?

Is Heaven the regulation of Earth?

Is Tao the regulation of Heaven?

Is self-fulfilling the regulation of Tao?

Edited May 12, 2013 by lienshan

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

is man the regulation of self-fulfillment?

[lienshan]

Man is not self-fulfilling, because we die if we do not drink.

 

But the heaven and the earth are, regarded as one unit, self-fulfilling,

because of the evaporation and rain cycle.

[dawei]

 

Ta Yi Sheng Shui is invented 342-324 BC while Shen Dao was teacher at the Jixia Academy during the reign of king Xuan. Shen Dao was simultaneously engaged to write commentaries to the Book of Changes by the Zhou king Xian (368-321 BC). The Guodian Ta Yi Sheng Shui text is Laozi's commentary to Shen Dao's cosmology. Line three is the proof; it's sarcastic!

 

What's unexpressed is "The great one is called a dam failure." that'll say the "one" in the Tao Te Ching chapter 25.

All translators but LaFargue seem to be unaware of this grammar rule and do only translate the adjective "great".

 

.................................................................

 

Water does too occur (implicit) in the four last lines of chapter 25

 

FA : to regulate / a regulation / to rule / a law

 

The right part of the character means: to get rid of and the left part means Water

 

 

Your not looking at the Chu Script used in the Guodian which has an animal with a man;

http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?submitButton1=Etymology&characterInput=%E7%81%8B

 

灋

Three basic parts: “氵”, “廌” and “去”.

 

The water represented equality. The animal was the instrument . 'Fa' was the spoken rite. This dates back to a story of a judge (Gao Yao) in the time of Shun and Yu. The idea of 'removing water' is a later Han explanation once the animal is removed from the character and a simple association was made among the remaining parts.

 

Another source I have says:

The bronze character 灋(fa) was carved initially at the bronze vessel named DaYuDing(大盂鼎). in Zhou (周) dynasty. 灋(fa) was composed of 去, 水, 廌. 去 related to sacrificial rites. 水 meant sacred place. 廌 meant totem. The shape of 灋 bears a close parallel to that of (天水) 訟卦 which is hexagram 6 among 64 hexagrams in the Book of Changes(周易).

☰(天) was a hieroglyphic symbol of Heaven. ☵(水) was a hieroglyphic symbol of the Milky Way. 訟 was a worship or worshipper. The bronze character 灋(fa) and hexagram 6, ( 天水 訟卦) has a common image that a worship was performed by a certain tribe at the sacred place. The bronze character 灋(fa), therefore, means that a certain tribe, a “廌” worshipper, performs a ancient rites “大社” at the sacred place “水”.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Man is not self-fulfilling, because we die if we do not drink.

 

But the heaven and the earth are, regarded as one unit, self-fulfilling,

because of the evaporation and rain cycle.

 

You do not see your own contradiction?

[lienshan]

 

You do not see your own contradiction?

 

NO

 

But dawei's character looks very interesting. I checked how it was used in some other ancient texts,

and what we today name the law of gravitiation could be what the 灋 character referred to, that'll say:

 

Is the ground the attraction of men?

Is the sky the attraction of the ground?

Is Tao the attraction of the sky?

Is self-fulfilling the attraction of Tao?

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Man is not self-fulfilling, because we die if we do not drink.

 

But the heaven and the earth are, regarded as one unit, self-fulfilling,

because of the evaporation and rain cycle.

 

 

Your duality is self evident. Man thus may be self fulfilling when [re]united as one unit with heaven and earth.

 

 

edit: added "[re]"

Edited May 15, 2013 by Northern Avid Judo Ant

[lienshan]

Your duality is self evident. Man thus may be self fulfilling when [re]united as one unit with heaven and earth.

 

Man is not self-fulfilling, because we die if we do not drink.

 

That's a fact.

But it's not a fact that the earth and the heaven, regarded as one unit, are self-fulfilling?

So you are attacking my arguement from a wrong angle!

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Man is not self-fulfilling, because we die if we do not drink.

 

That's a fact.

But it's not a fact that the earth and the heaven, regarded as one unit, are self-fulfilling?

So you are attacking my arguement from a wrong angle!

 

No... you're...

 

*sigh*

 

no.

 

Man *can be* self-fulfilling as being united with the earth and the heavens, but it takes an ACT OF WILL on man's part to accomplish the necessary practices for (re)integration with the omniversal whole.

 

 

the earth and heaven, regarded as one unit, are self-fulfilling. take away one from the other, and they become like man.