laozi's duality: both, at the same time

[rene]

This is lienshan's post in the main taoist section. It needs to be up here, too, imo.

Bold emphasis, is mine; New topic title, mine.

Original thread at: http://thetaobums.com/topic/28216-duality-yes-or-no/

 

 

********

 

The word DUALITY has naturally TWO modern English definitions:

 

Dichotomy duality was the definition that Shen Dao preferred.

Division into two usually contradicting parts.

The phase of the moon, when half of the disk is illuminated.

Yin and Yang, the fluid and the vapor.

 

Wave-particle duality was the definition that Laozi preferred.

The exhibition of both wavelike and particlelike properties by a single entity,

as of both diffraction and linear propagation by light.

"a tao or to tao" put in Laozi's own Words from chapter 1, line 1.

Zhuangzi was either Zhuangzi or a butterfly dreaming, that it was Zhuangzi.

 

Shen Dao invented "THE GREAT ONE" to make his definition work.

 

Laozi's definition works as is.

 

********

Edited May 3, 2013 by rene

[dawei]

Maybe we do the concept an injustice to even use the word "Duality". In fact, it may be simply our brains can't get beyond the perceived world of duality.

 

I think the other mistake is it gets described too linear. While this allows for a transformation and return (the linear is really a loop), it still seems to miss the mark.

 

But if I have to use the word duality (or visualize it), it is like simultaneously turning dualism form horizontal to vertical; But either way, we need need to have a limitless around the entire picture and possibly a field throughout.

 

The big question I see is: What to call the limitless and the field?

 

IMO, ONE (and a few other names used in ancient times) is limitless and Dao is the field.

 

I think what happens is that the idea of the limitless and the field cannot be distinguished on some level and as the field is the absolute connection among the whole; it is also in a sense limitless; thus, the field, the grid of arising and unfolding (as Dao) is what gets talked.

[rene]

The big question I see is: What to call the limitless and the field?

 

IMO, ONE (and a few other names used in ancient times) is limitless and Dao is the field.

 

I think what happens is that the idea of the limitless and the field cannot be distinguished on some level and as the field is the absolute connection among the whole; it is also in a sense limitless; thus, the field, the grid of arising and unfolding (as Dao) is what gets talked.

 

I agree with your hesitations... not only for the word 'dual' but moreso for the word 'nondual' (because its use in other traditions brings confusion). Limitless and field might be closer words, or rather more useful words, especially when trying to discuss these things without extraneous baggage... but there still might be a risk in trading a stuck 2D mindset for a stuck 3D mindset. Oh well, at least it's a jump forward. Maybe. LOL

 

warm regards

[lienshan]

Since we are in the text-forum then let's talk the first part of "Ta Yi Sheng Shui"!

There's a long list of dichotomies; first listed forewards and then listed reversed.

The two most important, Yin - Yang and fluid - vapor, are listed in Laozi's chapter 42

 

I've lost the chinese version; could you show the characters in this tread, dawei?

Then we could translate it, it's easy, so others can see what we are talking about.

[dawei]

but there still might be a risk in trading a stuck 2D mindset for a stuck 3D mindset. Oh well, at least it's a jump forward. Maybe. LOL

 

Exactly

[dawei]

Most of the ancient cosmologies have a singular aspect until a duality emerges. I'll try to post a few more later:

 

 

Da Yi Sheng Shui

 

Translation by Hilmar Alquiros

http://www.tao-te-king.org/taiyi_shengshui.htm

 

slip 1-8: (partial)

大一生水，

The Great One Gave Birth to Water,

 

水反輔大一，

Water returned and assisted “Taiyi”,

 

是以成天。

in this way developing heaven.

 

天地反輔大，

Heaven returned and assisted “Taiyi”,

 

是以成地。

in this way developing the earth.

 

天地[復相輔]也，

Heaven and earth [repeatedly each other assisting],

 

是以成神明。

in this way developing (the “Spiritual” and the “Numinous”)

 

“above and below”.

 

神明復相輔也，

“above and below” repeatedly each other assisting,

 

是以成[陰陽。

in this way developing Yin and Yang.

 

陰陽復相輔也，

Yin and Yang repeatedly repeatedly each other assisting,

 

是以成]四時。

in this way developing the four seasons.

 

四時復相輔也，

The four seasons repeatedly repeatedly each other assisting,

 

是以成寒然。

in this way developing cold and hot.

 

寒然復相輔也。

Cold and hot repeatedly repeatedly each other assisting,

 

是以成濕澡。

in this way developing moist and dry.

 

濕澡復相輔也，

Moist and dry repeatedly repeatedly each other assisting,

 

成歲而止。

they developed the (circle of ) the year, and the process came to an end.

 

 

 

[lienshan]

Laozi's duality: both, at the same time

 

Tao bears 1

1 bears 2

2 bears 3

3 bears everything

 

The above is the standard translation of the chapter 42 opening lines.

There is an alternative translation based on dictionary possibilities:

 

一 means 1 / first / once

 

二 means 2 / second / twice

 

三 means 3 / third / trice

 

Tao bearing once is the first born twice.

The second bears a third; the trice born everything.

 

It's two texts within one text; both at the same time!

The first is a presentation of "The Great One" theory.

The second is the arguementation against "The Great One" theory.

Edited May 3, 2013 by lienshan

[dawei]

Heng Xian: (dates to same as Guodian texts)

 

Tr. Wang Zhong Jiang

 

There is non-being in hengxian 恒先 (permanent priority), and it is simplicity, stillness and emptiness. The simplicity is the great simplicity; the stillness is the great stillness; the emptiness is the great emptiness. It is ziyan 自厌 (self-sufficient), but it bu ziren 不自忍 (cannot restrain itself) and the Field appears. There is yu 或 (域) (the Field), so there is Qi 气 (material). There is Qi , so there is Being. There is Being, so there is a beginning. There is a beginning, so there is movement. Before the existence of Heaven and Earth ,and before activities, behaviors, developments, and creations, there was the stillness and the emptiness as one, which is in tranquil chaos. It is unified and still unclear, and produces nothing as of yet. The Qi is self-creating and self-operating, and it is not created by any other permanent thing. The production of permanent

Qi is not alone; it comes into existence with the Field, which is also self-creating.

 

The Dao of Heaven has already been formed, but the One is still the One and the reversion is still reverting. The production of permanent Qi comes from the reversion unto its own desire. Only this reverting process forever exists among all operations of Heaven. If we can understand this principle, our thoughts will not be a breach of Heaven. Being proceeds from the Field. Life proceeds from Being. Sound proceeds from the life. Speech proceeds from sound. Names proceed from speech. Events proceed from names. If the Field is not Field, there is no name of Field. If the Being is not Being, there is no name of Being. If life is not life, there is no name of life. If the sound is not sound, there is no name of sound. If the speech is not speech, there is no name of speech. If the name is not a name, there is no name of naming. If the event is not an event,there is no name of event.

 

 

 

 

Lie Zi

 

Cosmology

 

Tr. Giles

 

'Hence we say, there is a great Principle of Change, a great Origin, a great Beginning, a great Primordial Simplicity. In the great Change substance is not yet manifest. In the great Origin lies the beginning of substance. In the great Beginning, lies the beginning of material form.[7] In the great Simplicity lies the beginning of essential qualities. When substance, form and essential qualities are still indistinguishably blended together it is called Chaos. Chaos means that all things are chaotically intermixed and not yet separated from one another. The purer and lighter elements, tending upwards, made the Heavens; the grosser and heavier elements, tending downwards, made the Earth. Substance, harmoniously proportioned, became Man; and, Heaven and Earth containing thus a spiritual element, all things were evolved and produced.'

On one hand, there is life, and on the other, there is that which produces life; there is form, and there is that which imparts form; there is sound, and there is that which causes sound; there is colour, and there is that which causes colour; there is taste, and there is that which causes taste.

[dawei]

Compare Cosmology Sequences:

 

HengXian:

 

Hengxian (Nothingness) → Field (cosmos) → Qi (undifferentiated) → “Being” (Clear Qi=Heaven and Muddy QI=Earth) → “beginning” (Myriad Things) → “movement”.

 

 

Taiyi ShengShui:

 

Great One → Water → Heaven and Earth → Spirit and Light → Yin Yang → Four Seasons

 

Huainanzi:

 

Primal Illumination (boundless void) → Cosmos → Qi (undifferentiated) → Clear Qi=Heaven and Muddy QI=Earth → Yin Yang → Four Seasons → Myriad Things

 

Lushu Chunqiu

 

Great One → Heaven and Earth → Yin Yang → Myriad Things

 

 

The Book of Rites:

 

Great One → Heaven and Earth → Yin Yang → Four Seasons → Ghosts and Spirits

 

Yijing (Mawangdui):

 

In Changes, there is DA HENG, which generates the Two Modes. The Two Modes generate the Four Images, and the Four Images generate the Eight Trigrams.”

 

 

Laozi:

 

The Dao engenders one, one engenders two, two engenders three

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Duality of nonduality:


Yes.

No.

Both yes and no.

Neither yes or no.

Both yes and no, as well as neither yes or no. "At the same time".

AS WELL AS NEITHER "Both" NOR "Neither" "yes and no" at any time, mutually with "all at the same time".


If you follow what i am saying they you were one of the few people who didnt need to hear it.

[rene]

lienshan, dawai, hi

 

 

Laozi's duality: both, at the same time

Tao bears 1
1 bears 2
2 bears 3
3 bears everything

The above is the standard translation of the chapter 42 opening lines.
There is an alternative translation based on dictionary possibilities:

一 means 1 / first / once

二 means 2 / second / twice

三 means 3 / third / trice

Tao bearing once is the first born twice.
The second bears a third; the trice born everything.

It's two texts within one text; both at the same time!
The first is a presentation of "The Great One" theory.
The second is the arguementation against "The Great One" theory.

 

I find no conflict between the presentations, just different starting points on their ideas... my take leans towards the former.

 

 

 

Compare Cosmology Sequences:

 

HengXian:

 

Hengxian (Nothingness) → Field (cosmos) → Qi (undifferentiated) → “Being” (Clear Qi=Heaven and Muddy QI=Earth) → “beginning” (Myriad Things) → “movement”.

 

 

Taiyi ShengShui:

 

Great One → Water → Heaven and Earth → Spirit and Light → Yin Yang → Four Seasons

 

Huainanzi:

 

Primal Illumination (boundless void) → Cosmos → Qi (undifferentiated) → Clear Qi=Heaven and Muddy QI=Earth → Yin Yang → Four Seasons → Myriad Things

 

Lushu Chunqiu

 

Great One → Heaven and Earth → Yin Yang → Myriad Things

 

 

The Book of Rites:

 

Great One → Heaven and Earth → Yin Yang → Four Seasons → Ghosts and Spirits

 

Yijing (Mawangdui):

 

In Changes, there is DA HENG, which generates the Two Modes. The Two Modes generate the Four Images, and the Four Images generate the Eight Trigrams.”

 

 

Laozi:

 

The Dao engenders one, one engenders two, two engenders three

 

To me, they all say the same thing; differences again perhaps being the starting point...

My preference is Laozi because it's less wordy. LOL

It's nice to see the consistancy between the ideas. (-:

Thanks lienshen, dawei, for sharing those. I yield to you two and others to discuss the finer points.

 

warm regards

[rene]

Duality of nonduality:

 

 

Yes.

 

No.

 

Both yes and no.

 

Neither yes or no.

 

Both yes and no, as well as neither yes or no. "At the same time".

 

AS WELL AS NEITHER "Both" NOR "Neither" "yes and no" at any time, mutually with "all at the same time".

 

 

If you follow what i am saying they you were one of the few people who didnt need to hear it.

 

There's a couple of us here that didn't need to hear it. Glad to know you're one of 'em.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

there's a lot of us here but i dont think anyone's paying enough attention places like facebook to notice or "get it"

[lienshan]

The Great One gave birth to the water.

The return of the water assisted the Great One,

because of that completing the heaven.

The heavenly return was a large assistence,

because of that completing the earth.

The return of the heaven and the earth was a mutual assistence,

because of that completing the spirits and the light.

The return of the spirits and the light was a mutual assistence,

because of that completing the yin and the yang.

The return of the yin and the yang was a mutual assistence,

because of that completing the four seasons.

The return of the four seasons was a mutual assistence,

because of that completing the coldness and the hotness.

The return of the coldness and the hotness was a mutual assistence,

because of that completing the moistness and the dryness.

The return of the moistness and the dryness was a mutual assistence,

they completed a year and stopped.

Consequently:

Is a year what the moistness and the dryness gave birth to?

Are the moistness and the dryness what the coldness and the hotness gave birth to?

Are the coldness and the hotness what the four seasons gave birth to?

Are the four seasons what the yin and the yang gave birth to?

Are the yin and the yang what the spirits and the light gave birth to?

Are the spirits and the light what the heaven and the earth gave birth to?

Are the heaven and the earth what the Great One gave birth to?

 

 

The last seven sentences are rethorical questions,

because the object is placed before the subject in the syntax.

I'll bet everything I have, that the author of this Guodian text is Laozi!

Edited May 3, 2013 by lienshan

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Laozi might just be an awareness, independent of form, capable of communicating with us, through us, as an individual amongst us or as an idea we mutually employ...


Or is that lousy?

[lienshan]

Or is that lousy?

If that's your opinion then it's not that lousy.

 

He is to me a top 3 author ever! Or is that lousy?

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

roughly 89% of my posts are simply trying to get people to think about a subject that is not immediately objectified in the original topics which i am responding.

5% of my posts are to love everyone here.

3% of my posts are to express "tough love" and hope our misunderstandings are resolved.

2% of my posts are to gripe about our shared experiences and the state of our world

1% of my posts is all about me and my own personal problems.



The accuracy of these percentages is not intended to be perfect, but offer a generalized idea of my objectives.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Northern Avid Judo Ant

[rene]

Wow.

 

The Great One gave birth to the water.
The return of the water assisted the Great One,
because of that completing the heaven.
The heavenly return was a large assistence,
because of that completing the earth.
The return of the heaven and the earth was a mutual assistence,
because of that completing the spirits and the light.
The return of the spirits and the light was a mutual assistence,
because of that completing the yin and the yang.
The return of the yin and the yang was a mutual assistence,
because of that completing the four seasons.
The return of the four seasons was a mutual assistence,
because of that completing the coldness and the hotness.
The return of the coldness and the hotness was a mutual assistence,
because of that completing the moistness and the dryness.
The return of the moistness and the dryness was a mutual assistence,
they completed a year and stopped.
Consequently:
Is a year what the moistness and the dryness gave birth to?
Are the moistness and the dryness what the coldness and the hotness gave birth to?
Are the coldness and the hotness what the four seasons gave birth to?
Are the four seasons what the yin and the yang gave birth to?
Are the yin and the yang what the spirits and the light gave birth to?
Are the spirits and the light what the heaven and the earth gave birth to?
Are the heaven and the earth what the Great One gave birth to?


The last seven sentences are rethorical questions,
because the object is placed before the subject in the syntax.
I'll bet everything I have, that the author of this Guodian text is Laozi!

 

lienshan, is that your translation?

the upper portion flows and circles like a shamans chant

powerful stuff and yeah Laozi all over it.

(-:

Edited May 4, 2013 by rene

[lienshan]

lienshen, is that your translation?

 

Yes, I've spent almost five years learning how to read the Warring States chinese written language,

and I've today more problems with the modern english grammar than with ancient chinese grammar.

 

Tao Te Ching chapter 42: Everything carry yin on their shoulders and embrace yang.

 

What we carry on our shoulders and embrace are our children!

 

The return of the spirits and the light was a mutual assistence,

because of that completing the yin and the yang.

 

That'll say Laozi refers to the paradox of Ta Yi Sheng Shui,

that Yin and Yang are the two children of the spirits and the light.

 

My interpretation of the next chapter 42 lines is that:

 

The bath water and the Qi are considered an aggregation.

People hate being orphaned, lonely, and unworthy. Yet Kings and Dukes call themselves such.

 

relates to these two Ta Yi Sheng Shui lines:

 

because of that completing the moistness and the dryness.

The return of the moistness and the dryness was a mutual assistence,

 

because:

 

the moistness is the fine word and the bath water is the lousy word both meaning: the water

the Qi is the fine word and the vapor is the lousy word both meaning: the air

Edited May 4, 2013 by lienshan

[lienshan]

Compare Cosmology Sequences:

 

Taiyi ShengShui:

 

Great One → Water → Heaven and Earth → Spirit and Light → Yin Yang → Four Seasons

 

The Book of Rites:

 

Great One → Heaven and Earth → Yin Yang → Four Seasons → Ghosts and Spirits

 

A chapter "The Black Robes" of the Book of Rites was among the texts in the Guodian tomb,

so we know for sure that the Tao Te Ching and the Book of Rites were more or less contemporary.

 

My guess is, that the Ta Yi Sheng Shui cosmology is the taoist Huang Lao version of that version?

There are also a taoist version and a confucian version in the Shuo Gua section of the Book of Change!

The §1 of the Shuo Gua contains the characters 道德 Tao and Te

The §2 of the Shuo Gua contains the characters 仁義 Benevolence and Righteousness

Edited May 4, 2013 by lienshan

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

i dont have any children.

[lienshan]

no worry, taoist monks have for more than 2000 years been puzzled by that line

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Yes, I've spent almost five years learning how to read the Warring States chinese written language,

and I've today more problems with the modern english grammar than with ancient chinese grammar.

 

If you're interested, I'd be willing to help you with your English grammar. Your translations have value, and would be even better if the English grammar was a bit more, shall we say, orthodox. You're call though.. just puttin' that out there. We'd probably best do it by PM though.

[flowing hands]

I really don't like being negative, but one can't simply translate ancient Chinese and hope that it is in any way right!

 

Example modern Chinese word Xing meaning star, very pertinent to Daoism. Li Erh's time may have meant multiple things for example; light from darkness, sparkle, light within darkness, mysterious light in the void, pointed light that never fails, bright light, sky light, small light, unknown light, light out of darkness, Immortal spirit, spirit light, sage, etc etc. So when the ancient Chinese used a character that we now use to mean 'star' did it really have the same meaning. Add to that translation into another language and cultural and religious undertones, what do we have? Mish Mash, famous Bulgarian dish!!!!

[rene]

I really don't like being negative, but one can't simply translate ancient Chinese and hope that it is in any way right!

 

Example modern Chinese word Xing meaning star, very pertinent to Daoism. Li Erh's time may have meant multiple things for example; light from darkness, sparkle, light within darkness, mysterious light in the void, pointed light that never fails, bright light, sky light, small light, unknown light, light out of darkness, Immortal spirit, spirit light, sage, etc etc. So when the ancient Chinese used a character that we now use to mean 'star' did it really have the same meaning. Add to that translation into another language and cultural and religious undertones, what do we have? Mish Mash, famous Bulgarian dish!!!!

 

Very true for when/if we only rely on the 'word/character' for understanding, regardless of time or language.

 

The good news is, as you surely must know, there is so much more that also comes in through what is written.

 

Do you not see the common essence that underlies: "... light from darkness, sparkle, light within darkness, mysterious light in the void, pointed light that never fails, bright light, sky light, small light, unknown light, light out of darkness, Immortal spirit, spirit light, sage, etc etc" ?

 

I do. (-:

 

Allowing all information to inform means allowing all information to inform. I'd think a mystical fella like yourself would be the first to agree.

 

warm regards

Edited May 4, 2013 by rene