Primordial qigong aka Tai Chi for Enlightenment

[liminal_luke]

Learned this a long time ago from Michael Winn and have started praticing again. Noticing some changes right away--fuller breathing, a sense of centeredness. There have been threads about this before but nothing recent, I think. Anybody else practice this. Thoughts? Experiences?

 

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Hi,

 

I tried it for a while, but it doesn't seem that powerful... I hope to be wrong because the idea of this qigong form is nice.

 

As it is presented it looks like pure scam: Tai Chi is a martial art, some use it for meditation because they get tired of sitting... but tai Chi is for killing people

A form of tai chi without any martial application it's not tai chi, but qigong.

I base my view of this martial art on those of Master Wang Xiang Zhai.

 

Does someone know if the original chinese name suggests some seriousness in this practice?

[Shagrath]

John P Milton says that it is originally called Wuji Taiji.

 

I tried Michael Winn, Donald Rubbo and Cheng Binsongs version and it was nothing special at all. Eventually I got my hands on John P Miltons version which I believe it is authentic because he learned it on Wudang mountain (on which that form was born) and it was quite different experience. I would highly recommend John Miltons version over all the others.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Shagrath

[liminal_luke]

Shagrath,

 

That's interesting. The actual movements of the form are different or just the intention that is behind them? Could you say a little more about how your experience with John Milton's version is different? Thanks

 

Liminal

 

edit...just watched a video of John Milton and I can see some of the movement differences. Seems like there's this extra movement in the heaven cycle up the central channel that I haven't seen in oher versions.

Edited May 5, 2013 by liminal_luke

[Shagrath]

It is similar form but movements are quite different (hand positions, some hand movements and yes that extra movement). I don't know how to explain difference except that John Miltons version just clicked with me. I've been doing qigong for few years now (nothing special, just bunch of exercises that I was taught by few taiji teachers) and I feel energy flow in my body. I found online michael winn version and soon I bought rubbos and binsongs to complete knowledge of that form because all three of them learned that form from the same teacher. While doing that form I didn't feel anything special but I just kept doing it because it is beneficial form. Than after few months I found John Miltons version, bought it and it was best investment so far. When I heard exercise explanations and did the exercises I had a feeling THAT IS IT. I felt deeper connection with energy from the first time, more grounded etc.

 

I would really recommend that version from the heart.

 

PS: I am not in any way connected with that product nor I have any profit from it.

[ChiForce]

Hi,

 

I tried it for a while, but it doesn't seem that powerful... I hope to be wrong because the idea of this qigong form is nice.

 

As it is presented it looks like pure scam: Tai Chi is a martial art, some use it for meditation because they get tired of sitting... but tai Chi is for killing people

A form of tai chi without any martial application it's not tai chi, but qigong.

I base my view of this martial art on those of Master Wang Xiang Zhai.

 

Does someone know if the original chinese name suggests some seriousness in this practice?

Tai Chi without Chi Kung is just plain exercise.... Isn't it still Tai Chi is just meditation after all???

[liminal_luke]

Thanks Shagrath for the recommendation. I think I'll try playing around with incorporating some of the differences I see from John Milton's video's on youtube and see what happens for me.

 

Liminal

[Cheshire Cat]

Tai Chi without Chi Kung is just plain exercise.... Isn't it still Tai Chi is just meditation after all???

 

Personally, I believe that real meditation can improve any martial arts.

As for Chi Kung, I share the ideas of Master Nan Huai Chin...

Edited May 5, 2013 by DAO rain TAO

[ChiDragon]

Tai Chi without Chi Kung is just plain exercise.... Isn't it still Tai Chi is just meditation after all???

 

FYI Tai Chi is a form of Chi Kung. BTW It is the best form of Chi Kung. It is a combination of hidden forms of Chi Kung and Kung Fu. It takes the inner intuition of the practitioner to realize them.

 

Practicing Tai Ji is quite awake and alert, thus it is not just meditation at all.

Edited May 5, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Dainin]

One of the things I like about about John Milton's DVD is that it has a compass on the screen during the practice sessions. This makes it a lot easier to keep track of which direction you should be facing, which can be confusing until you get the hang of it. I like Winn's also, but there are some things that he teaches differently now, since the time that he did the DVD. I thought that his workshop on it was good, and it was reasonably priced too.

[liminal_luke]

Dainin,

 

Winn teaches the form differently now than on the dvd? How so? Thanks

 

Liminal

[Dainin]

For one, in the opening movement, you bend your knees more deeply as the arms come up. There were one or two other changes, but I can't remember what they are right now. They weren't radical changes, more like adjustments.

[liminal_luke]

Thanks for the reply Dainin. It's interesting how it's basically one form but everybody has there own take on it.

 

Liminal

[寒月 Hanyue]

reading this thread I can't help but feel people don't know what taiji 太極 is? though granted it is a very profound and deep concept that I certainly make no allusions to understanding. I do know that it isn't a martial art or qigong though.

 

Next people will be talking about a "yin-yang symbol", or heaven forbid saying the 'chi' in taichi is 氣 ....oh my.

 

Taiji 太極 is a concept, an idea, a reflection of a deep observation of nature.

 

Just because a martial art that developed relatively recently in comparison, was later on given the appellation of "taiji", and called taijiquan. Does not make taiji a martial art.

 

Taiji as a term can appear in the name of a method and have no bearing whatsoever on "taijiquan".

 

The name 'wuji taiji' 無極太極 is a VERY profound name for a practice, and to actually live up to that name as a method, or to achieve that through ones own gongfu (time and effort), well.

 

I see that several reviewers on Amazon for Milton's material don't understand this either And I thought it was the "information Age" we were living in

 

Anyway, back to the scheduled broadcast....

[Cheshire Cat]

reading this thread I can't help but feel people don't know what taiji 太極 is? though granted it is a very profound and deep concept that I certainly make no allusions to understanding. I do know that it isn't a martial art or qigong though.

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/28263-a-few-words-on-tai-ji-quan/

[shanlung]

Another way to look at it is the the more empty, the more hollow , the more useless the teaching of taiji, the more they need to rely on profound names to part a fool from his money.

 

A lot easier to coin profound names, and descriptions with chi running up and down North and South then to deliver the real goods.

 

But of course, if the man can truly toss people attacking him with no efforts at all (after assuring yourself it is not a con job ), then you are in the presence of a true Master. And whatever he say will carry weight.

 

If that guy say his knowledge is too sacred to show you and do nothing but talk and talk and talk, you are in the presence of a con man or a fool who want to waste your time and money.

 

But then, it is your time and your money, so do as you please with it.

 

Idiotic Taoist

[寒月 Hanyue]

 

Is there any point?........

Edited May 7, 2013 by snowmonki

[ChiDragon]

Taiji as a term can appear in the name of a method and have no bearing whatsoever on "taijiquan".

 

FYI.....

 

In the Tai Ji Quan society, "Tai Ji" is short for Tai Ji Quan. Those who practice Tai Ji Quan, may either say: "I am practicing Tai Ji or Tai Ji Quan". Thus it was understood to most of the practitioners

 

Edited May 7, 2013 by ChiDragon

[寒月 Hanyue]

 

FYI.....

 

In the Tai Ji Quan society, "Tai Ji" is short for Tai Ji Quan. Those who practice Tai Ji Quan, may either say: "I am practicing Tai Ji or Tai Ji Quan". Thus it was understood to most of the practitioners

 

 

 

Yes yes, but FYI just because taijiquan people do often simplify the name to taiji does not mean everytime the term 'taiji' is said in a sentence or appears within the name of something, that it is taijiquan being talked about or referred to. As well you know.

 

This thread is about 'Primordial qigong' which Milton has said was originally called wuji taiji. Many points coming up here and in the Amazon reviews I've seen all seem to be equating the qigong set with taijiquan forms and styles and getting confused. The same thing happens again and again with the taiji ruler. This also occurs when you refer to the bagua thesedays too, as well as other concepts

 

Why not simply look at things for what they are and take the time to understand what they might be trying to say, rather than imposing what you think they are saying instead?

 

For what it is worth, I have not seen most of the sets, ie Winn's, Rubbo's etc.

 

I do like Milton's however, and agree with Shagrath there is a nice energy to Milton's presentation.

[ChiDragon]

 

FYI.....

 

In the Tai Ji Quan society, "Tai Ji" is short for Tai Ji Quan. Those who practice Tai Ji Quan, may either say: "I am practicing Tai Ji or Tai Ji Quan". Thus it was understood to most of the practitioners

 

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Snowmonki, would you happen to know if "Wuji Taiji" is related to the "Wuji Chi Gong" as practiced by Master Duan?

[寒月 Hanyue]

Snowmonki, would you happen to know if "Wuji Taiji" is related to the "Wuji Chi Gong" as practiced by Master Duan?

I'm no expert at all. But there have been threads on here before.

 

Liminal luke, the OP, mentioned Michael Winn's version.

 

It does seem that most have come from Master zhu Hui

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/8664-wuji-qigong-and-wudang-hun-yuan-qigong/

 

Master Duan is generally well regarded, he is a catholic I beleive, though don't be fooled by the reports of his age. His age went up drastically over a fairly short period of time! This makes it hard to know which is the truth and acutally accurate.

 

I do not know enough about Master Duan to know where he learned his form from.

 

John Milton's version he learned from Daoists in Wudang, the dvd shows him with them. Here is a thread on his dvd's.

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/17534-john-p-miltons-dvds/

 

Here is another thread

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/11946-primordial-qigong/

Edited May 8, 2013 by snowmonki

[Dainin]

I can add something here. Duan's set is called Primordial Chaos (or Hundun) Qigong, it consists of 18 movements, which can be done in random order, except for the first and last piece. It is not the same as the Wuji Gong being discussed above. You can find this set on Francesco Garripolli's popular DVD. Don Ethan Miller was supposed to put out a DVD of Duan teaching this a few years ago, but it has not yet appeared.

 

Most of the teachers of the Wuji Gong (the one on Milton's DVD) in the U.S. learned it from the late Master Zhu Hui, including Donald Rubbo, Michael Winn, Bingkun Hu and Dr. Roger Jahnke. If you google Zhu Hui, there is a photo of them all together.

 

There is another set called Primordial Qigong that is also known as Hunyuan Qigong, which is also different. This is 12 movements and was developed by the late Master Feng Zhiqiang, and is now taught by Chen Zhonghua, Ken Cohen, and others. I've just started working on this one myself.

 

Also intriguing is that there is a teacher from Wudang, Tseng Yun Xiang, living in Colorado. He has a DVD entitled Wu Dang Hun Yuan (Primordial) Qigong. I haven't seen this, and wonder if it is the same Wuji Gong set. If anyone here has seen this one, maybe you could fill us in.

[Bubbles]

Also intriguing is that there is a teacher from Wudang, Tseng Yun Xiang, living in Colorado. He has a DVD entitled Wu Dang Hun Yuan (Primordial) Qigong. I haven't seen this, and wonder if it is the same Wuji Gong set. If anyone here has seen this one, maybe you could fill us in.

 

It is not the same set although one or two movements seem similar. It is a slower and somewhat simpler set than GM Feng Zhiqiang's Hun Yuan Qigong. Also Tseng Yun Xiang 's dvd has a sitting exercise part.

[Cheshire Cat]

 

 

Why not simply look at things for what they are and take the time to understand what they might be trying to say, rather than imposing what you think they are saying instead?

 

Because to say that playing weird movements can produce enlightenment imply that the Buddha was a stupid thick guy with strange ideas about stilling the mind and doing insight.

To say that taiji is not a martial art is quite funny by its own without additional comments.

 

Nonetheless, I admit that moving slowly and gently with mindfulness has a definite benefit on the body-mind.

This is the basic principle behind the hundreds of qigong form. But the "magic" is not hidden in how one moves...

Edited May 8, 2013 by DAO rain TAO