Primordial qigong aka Tai Chi for Enlightenment

[寒月 Hanyue]

I can add something here. Duan's set is called Primordial Chaos (or Hundun) Qigong, it consists of 18 movements, which can be done in random order, except for the first and last piece. It is not the same as the Wuji Gong being discussed above. You can find this set on Francesco Garripolli's popular DVD. Don Ethan Miller was supposed to put out a DVD of Duan teaching this a few years ago, but it has not yet appeared.

 

Most of the teachers of the Wuji Gong (the one on Milton's DVD) in the U.S. learned it from the late Master Zhu Hui, including Donald Rubbo, Michael Winn, Bingkun Hu and Dr. Roger Jahnke. If you google Zhu Hui, there is a photo of them all together.

 

There is another set called Primordial Qigong that is also known as Hunyuan Qigong, which is also different. This is 12 movements and was developed by the late Master Feng Zhiqiang, and is now taught by Chen Zhonghua, Ken Cohen, and others. I've just started working on this one myself.

 

Also intriguing is that there is a teacher from Wudang, Tseng Yun Xiang, living in Colorado. He has a DVD entitled Wu Dang Hun Yuan (Primordial) Qigong. I haven't seen this, and wonder if it is the same Wuji Gong set. If anyone here has seen this one, maybe you could fill us in.

 

Thanks for sharing. I saw in another thread that you have practiced Zhu Hui's primoridal qigong quite a bit and really liked it. How have you found it in comparison to Master Feng's Hunuan gong?

 

I am familiar with Hunyuan gong, and always found it a bit weird that it got lumped together with the 'wuji' primordial qigong.

 

They are all pre-heaven based practices, but seem quite different. What are your thoughts?

[Antares]

Because to say that playing weird movements can produce enlightenment imply that the Buddha was a stupid thick guy with strange ideas about stilling the mind and doing insight.

 

But what is enlightenment? Sounds similar to alignment.

As far as I know they say Primordial Hun Yuan Qigong replenishes primordial (yuan qi). Is not it foundation for one to become Buddha? Or may be you think it is to seat under the tree? If you read thoroughly the history of Shaolin and their methods and what influences it made on the whole China (as far as Zang Sanfeng ) you will see the difference between tibetan or indian buddhism and chinese. Just different approaches with using the name of Buddha as symbol of enlightened state of mind

[寒月 Hanyue]

Because to say that playing weird movements can produce enlightenment imply that the Buddha was a stupid thick guy with strange ideas about stilling the mind and doing insight.

To say that taiji is not a martial art is quite funny by its own without additional comments.

 

Nonetheless, I admit that moving slowly and gently with mindfulness has a definite benefit on the body-mind.

This is the basic principle behind the hundreds of qigong form. But the "magic" is not hidden in how one moves...

DrT,

 

I have a feeling we are not likely to fully agree. I certainly feel like I am missing something that you are trying to say. And I am damn sure you are not seeing most of what I am attempting to say in my posts.

 

You also appear to have read the first part of my original post in this thread and then not read the whole post where I explain my point fully.

 

Taiji the 'concept' and taijiquan are not the same thing. Taiji can be used, along with its brother and sister concepts to understand anything. They have nothing to do with martial arts, just because martial artists have used them to explain what they do. To me that would be like saying, "gravity" thats a martial thing.

 

I do whole heartedly agree with you about enlightenment though and this is also a pet peeve of mine. It is typical over the top New Age inspired Western thinking. So lets look at this briefly;

 

Enlightenment, what is it?

 

If we consider the attainment of Shakyamuni Buddha as the basis for understanding enlightenment, then anything short of that is well, not enlightenment. Then there is also awakening, which is related but not the same thing.

 

These Daoist practices are xian-tian gong (pre-Heaven practices).

 

That is why they have names using wuji. Wuji means prior to taiji, meaning it is before the undifferentiated state of taiji. Getting back to taiji is hard enough, but then past that to touch wuji is touching Dao.

 

Truly doing this is indeed a high level. Xian-tian gong can be simplistically understood as having two aspects. Straight out meditation, zuowang, jingzuo, jinggong whatever you want to call it. It was this practice that influenced Ch'an Buddhism and is the Daoist practice from which emerged Ch'an meditation [just where the lines of influence back and forth between Daoism and Buddhism lie is still a hotly debated area].

 

The other part is more of a neigong, that is aimed at refining and rebalancing the system gathering lost energies and strenghthening the original qi. The idea is to provide the practitioner with as good a platform as possible for the above meditation work.

 

This is, in many ways, xing and ming and the dual cultivation of both. But of course there is also post-heaven practice and that is different.

 

The neigong aspect is NOT a method in actuality as far as I am aware. It is a natural process that will kick in once cultivation reaches a certain point. The outer form is something that has emerged from that practice, which is why in some schools any type of this "wuji gong" is 'spontaneous' or 'formless'.

 

The forms that are taught can lead one back to that formless state by helping one cultivate to the point where that process kicks in. That is their aim and intent. It does not however mean that everyone doing them, gets there. But this is what the practices are for. Which is why they end up with such weird Western names with "enlightenment" or "liberation" that carry connotations that are not really there within the Chinese.

 

Can this be done simply through meditation? Of course. But in many endeavours you have supplementary training, and the Daoists were keen on such things sometimes, but not always more so than Buddhists. Just because it can be done simply through stillness meditation, also does not mean everyone can do it that way.

 

Buddha enlightened one mind by holding up a flower. Meaning that even meditation (the method) is not required either. Anything can lead to the awakening of someone, be it meditation proper, a neigong form, eating, walking through a forest, being smacked in the head, or seeing a flower.

 

If there truly was only one way to cultivate then we would not have so many paths. The problem is when someone finds what works for them, and decides that is the only way anyone else can do the same thing. In my view, this is confusing the method for the inherent process that lies behind it.

 

Best,

Edited May 8, 2013 by snowmonki

[Dainin]

 

Thanks for sharing. I saw in another thread that you have practiced Zhu Hui's primoridal qigong quite a bit and really liked it. How have you found it in comparison to Master Feng's Hunuan gong?

 

I am familiar with Hunyuan gong, and always found it a bit weird that it got lumped together with the 'wuji' primordial qigong.

 

They are all pre-heaven based practices, but seem quite different. What are your thoughts?

 

 

Well, I've just started with the Hunyuan yesterday, but my impression is that they are very different. The Zhu Hui form is more involved with gathering from the four directions and heaven and earth. From what I've seen so far, the Hunyuan appears to have more to do with tracing the meridians, although I'm sure that it goes a lot deeper than that. Feng's small book includes mind intent, key points, hints and functions for each of the movements. I'm going to work with that and Chen Zhonghua's DVD, and eventually try to take the workshop with either Chen or Ken Cohen.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Well, I've just started with the Hunyuan yesterday, but my impression is that they are very different. The Zhu Hui form is more involved with gathering from the four directions and heaven and earth. From what I've seen so far, the Hunyuan appears to have more to do with tracing the meridians, although I'm sure that it goes a lot deeper than that. Feng's small book includes mind intent, key points, hints and functions for each of the movements. I'm going to work with that and Chen Zhonghua's DVD, and eventually try to take the workshop with either Chen or Ken Cohen.

 

Fair enough. From what I know Chen Zhonghua has altered and changed a few things from how Master Feng taught it, not sure why, maybe it was the influence from his main Chen style taiji teacher.

 

There is plenty of footage of Master Feng on youtube going through the set though. It is just the same as with many Masters, Master Feng, especially in his later years, the movements are so subtle that what he is doing is not always so clear.

 

There is a lot of caigong (gathering) within Hunyuan qigong, it tends to be more omnidirectional rather than turning to face different directions, but is certainly big on Heaven and Earth.

 

Hope you enjoy it

[joeblast]

DrT,

what I saw in there was that taiji becomes martial when it needs to, when it doesnt, it doesnt

[Cheshire Cat]

But what is enlightenment? Sounds similar to alignment.

 

 

Enlightenment, what is it?

 

If we consider the attainment of Shakyamuni Buddha as the basis for understanding enlightenment, then anything short of that is well, not enlightenment. Then there is also awakening, which is related but not the same thing.

 

 

To be enlightened means to understand in the most profound way the three characteristics (impermanence, no-self, unsatisfactoryness) and see them 24 hours a day in each single dharma (phenomena).

From this understanding, one learns perfect detachment from objects, actions and fruits of action (wu-wei).

 

You see, stilling the mind in some wuji-like state may help, but it will not do it.

 

You can find all of this in the earliest sutras and in TTC.

Edited May 8, 2013 by DAO rain TAO

[Antares]

To be enlightened means to understand in the most profound way the three characteristics (impermanence, no-self, unsatisfactoryness) and see them 24 hours a day in each single dharma (phenomena).

From this understanding, one learns perfect detachment from objects, actions and fruits of action (wu-wei).

 

You see, stilling the mind in some wuji-like state may help, but it will not do it.

 

But what will do it? Of course it is not only doing qigong. It is very much of personal awareness too. To be in the moment.

Right thinking, right set of the mind, right diet, right people... I understand it to be LIGHT. Practice of internal MA must help too.

So it is complex of diff. things. Qigong is not just waving with hands. It is working with your energy. Energy makes a difference! The more energy the more presence. All other is philosophy for the intellect.

What is there in Buddhism so special? Thinking that Life is suffering? Does it help?

I like the idea of the path in the book of H. Hesse "Siddhartha".

[ChiDragon]

What is there in Buddhism so special? Thinking that Life is suffering? Does it help?

 

In Buddhism, there is a difference in life about suffering. The philosophy behind Buddhism is that there is suffering in an ordinary life. In order to get out of the suffering in the ordinary life is go into Buddhism. It is belief of "emptiness" in Buddhism to rid of all the suffering by stay out of contact with the ordinary way of living. In the mean time, Buddhists were trying to help others to stop from being suffering by easing their mind. Once a person have realized how to rid of suffering and become a Buddhist, it was considered that the person has been enlightened.

 

 

[Antares]

 

. It is belief of "emptiness" in Buddhism to rid of all the suffering by stay out of contact with the ordinary way of living.

 

This is the distinction of the great importance I think. Wuji is fullness. Everything what budists merely are doing is seating quiet and reciting mantas, and doing "goods". There are not so much real yogis in Tibet and Nepal. It is very much broken tradition. IMO. If you like this philosophy it's OK. But I prefer Tao Te Ching.

[Antares]

WHY DO PEOPLE DIE?

WHAT IS THE ESSENCE OF TAOIST ALCHEMY? XING AND MING. FUSION OF SOUL XING WITH ENERGY MING

http://all-dao.com/essence-taoist-alchemy.html

Thus, the goal of alchemy - to fuse the soul Xing with the energy Ming and creating a yang Spirit – a Tao fetus, who has the real potential and can move to higher worlds.

How to perfect Xing you can understand by yourself or from the books, but how to perfect Ming you can get only in oral precepts of your Teacher. And important question is: Why it is so? Because of the fact that the secret of Ming is the secret of Life and Death! In carrying out the practice Ming the person violates a natural law (remember the saying "studying from the nature"). This law establishes that an ordinary person SHOULD BE BORN, GROW, LEAVE OR NO AFTER HIMSELF HIS PROGENY AND HIS ACTIONS, THEN GROW OLD AND DIE. Recall the Taoist phrase: "My destiny (MING!) is inside me, it is not from Heaven!" That is, a Taoist does not follow “the Nature", but instead overcomes it and goes against it.

 

Buddhists cultivate the "heart" (xing) mostly.

 

 

ON THE MAIN PROBLEMS WITH THE PRACTICE OF THE XING

http://all-dao.com/xing-problems.html

[ChiDragon]

"Wuji is fullness"

I think it was a misinterpretation of 無極(Wu Ji).

Wu(無): none
Ji(極): extreme

無極 is none to extreme; a state of none to none to the extreme of nothing.

太極（Ｔai Ji）: the ultimate extreme; the fullness; it is the complement of 無極(Wu Ji)
Edited May 8, 2013 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Actrually, the "heart" doesn't mean as the physical organ. The ancients were referring the heart as "mind". That is where enlightenment comes in which was to enlighten the mind.

Buddhists cultivate the "heart" (xing) mostly.

[Antares]

Actrually, the "heart" doesn't mean as the physical organ. The ancients were referring the heart as "mind". That is where enlightenment comes in which was to enlighten the mind.

 

 

I did not mean physical heart. This would be nonsense. Heart is Xing. But in taoism once again:

 

 

Thus, the goal of alchemy - to fuse the soul Xing with the energy Ming and creating a yang Spirit – a Tao fetus, who has the real potential and can move to higher worlds.

How to perfect Xing you can understand by yourself or from the books, but how to perfect Ming you can get only in oral precepts of your Teacher. And important question is: Why it is so? Because of the fact that the secret of Ming is the secret of Life and Death!

 

That is what you are against!

If you love Buddhism that's FINE. Wu Ji Qigong is not Buddhist's. It was created by Zhang Sanfeng as they believe.

No point to mix both philosophies. I think it is one of the common mistakes among practitioners.

But there is Buddhist qigong as well with the same conception but different ones. Go and teach then what is correct.

[Mudfoot]

Hi!

 

A question:

Is there anybody here who actually learned this form from a teacher, and perhaps learned beyond what is presented on John P Miltons DVD or the Rubbo book? The form seems to have some interesting details not explained in either.

 

With regards

 

Mf

[liminal_luke]

I learned it years ago from Michael Winn. In addition to his DVD of the form, which teaches the actual movements, he has a set of audio talks about it that go into more philosophical detail. If you´re interested in his take, they might be worth it though it´s been years since I´ve listened. Also, he´s writing a book about the form though I don´t think it´s released yet. Hopefully soon.

 

In my experience, it´s a very valuable practice, but not the kind of thing that everyone feels a huge shift from immediately. It takes persistence, and doing the form multiple times a day helps.

 

My two cents.

 

Liminal

Edited August 12, 2015 by liminal_luke

[phil]

Best Demonstration of WujiGong I have seen on Youtube

is anyone still practicing it?

[liminal_luke]

Thanks for that video Phil.  I´ve just recently started practicing again after a hiatus.  The form shown in the video differs significantly from what I learned from Michael Winn.  Seems like all the modern instructors teach slightly different variants.  Not sure how much it matters in the end.  

 

Some people who´ve tried this form say it doesn´t do much.  My take is that it´s a powerful form but often takes a period of dedicated practice before the benefits become apparent.  Do you practice?  Any impressions to share?

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Vis a vis forms looking different from teacher to teacher i’ll offer a perspective:

its not uncommon for a grandmaster or deeply skilled lineage holder to teach their disciples according to their need and expression, even encouraging the personal touches. Forms are formal but cant always fit every body or every practicioner, so if one source is survived by multiple sources who have all recieved transmission it will look very different between them, because the body that inherits is it’s own as well.

 

just two cents because my man LL Cool is always a pleasure to read. Hope you’re well friend!

[Aetherous]

On 6/6/2019 at 12:03 PM, liminal_luke said:

Thanks for that video Phil.  I´ve just recently started practicing again after a hiatus.  The form shown in the video differs significantly from what I learned from Michael Winn.  Seems like all the modern instructors teach slightly different variants.  Not sure how much it matters in the end.  

 

It looks quite similar to what the Rubbos taught. I think I prefer their version.

[liminal_luke]

29 minutes ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

 

its not uncommon for a grandmaster or deeply skilled lineage holder to teach their disciples according to their need and expression, even encouraging the personal touches. Forms are formal but cant always fit every body or every practicioner, so if one source is survived by multiple sources who have all recieved transmission it will look very different between them, because the body that inherits is it’s own as well.

 

 

Thanks for that insight RL -- it rings true for me.  From the student perspective, I think it´s easy to get wigged out over the apparent differences between forms, to struggle with doubts over whether a given form is the authentic version.  I think this handwringing is largely unnecessary.  This is especially true perhaps with this form because much of the power comes from connecting with the lineage and that´s largely a matter of intent.

[rideforever]

Anybody ever reached "enlightenment" doing .... one of these forms ?

[moment]

On 6/7/2019 at 11:07 PM, rideforever said:

Anybody ever reached "enlightenment" doing .... one of these forms ?

 

Forms are just steps to your own form. 

Edited July 7, 2019 by moment

[rideforever]

Well ... I did learn Michael Winn's version a few years ago and practiced it daily for about 2-3 months.   But nothing really.

It is a complex form and unless you can feel the meaning of each movement I don't see the point, each movement should be practiced individually, because there are many, it is quite complex and also very long and physically demanding, my arms used to ache.

Other forms of Michael Winn's or individual movements, are much more understandable.

I don't think practicing complex stuff that you don't understand is meaningful.

I do know that Arnold Tayam used to have a one movement wuji gong, where you raise your hands upwards rotate anticlockwise and lower your hands, returning clockwise, repeat ... I assume this is to unwind yourself to zero.

Working with energy is quite subtle and sophisticated and I don't know how many people are really feeling what is intended.

Also returning to the source is not quite as simple as unwinding your arms .... or mixing the earth and sky .... or drawing endless zeros on paper or doing Bagua in 8 directions.   

These are nice guesses, but what is missing is an understanding of how the human being manifests from the energetic centre of the Source to the energetic centres of the human ... and seems nobody knows that.   They don't even know where the source is, what the heart is, what the dantien is .... really madhouse and a million ideas.

Anyway, it keeps people employed !!!

Oh, is there anyone who is not a Grandmaster Sifu Dragon anymore ???   Because I would like to meet him, or her.

 

Edited June 8, 2019 by rideforever

[moment]

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Edited June 8, 2019 by moment