Dzogchen/Mahamudra "combination" in Tibetan book of the dead..

[stefos]

Hi everyone,

 

I was reading a portion of the so called "Tibetan book of the dead" really about the dying & the bardo.

 

Anyway, It said there that if one combines Mahamudra & Dzogchen then the reading of the said book wasn't needed.

 

Now, when I spoke to a lama about this he said that Dzogchen & Mahamudra were the same state.

 

Not having practiced Mahamudra stages, Why would the TBOTD even say to mix/combines Mahamudra & Dzogchen?

 

Odd statement to make.

Any insights?

 

Ciao......

[rex]

Mahamudra and Dzogchen both point to the same fundamental nature/Clear Light/Ground Luminosity. Since the Chonyid bardo visions arise from the fundamental nature of mind/Clear light then having recognised the natural state in the bardo of life the practitioner will be able to 'by pass' the visions and go straight to their source.

Edited May 9, 2013 by rex

[konchog uma]

both train in recognizing the natural state of mind. if one has experience with the natural state, they can recognize it in the bardo and attain liberation from cyclic existence, or at least be able to influence or control the process of rebirth. one could say it depends on the karma of the individual what they are able to sustain.

 

its probably the addition of the translator or commentator, i dont remember padmasambhava's words to contain those instructions. its been a couple years since i read it tho.

[Vmarco]

Mahamudra and Dzogchen both point to the same fundamental nature/Clear Light/Ground Luminosity. Since the Chonyid bardo visions arise from the fundamental nature of mind/Clear light then having recognised the natural state in the bardo of life the practitioner will be able to 'by pass' the visions and go straight to their source.

 

Nice response.

 

"Soon we all will die; our hopes and fears will be irrelevant....on the luminous continuity of existence which has no origin and which has never died, we project all the images of life and death, terror and joy, demons and gods. These images become our complete reality, and we submit without thinking to their dance. In all the movements of this dance we project our greatest fears on death, and we make every effort to ignore it." Padmasambhava

 

According to Tibetan tradition, the TBOTD was composed in the 8th century by Padmasambhava.

[stefos]

Nice response.

 

"Soon we all will die; our hopes and fears will be irrelevant....on the luminous continuity of existence which has no origin and which has never died, we project all the images of life and death, terror and joy, demons and gods. These images become our complete reality, and we submit without thinking to their dance. In all the movements of this dance we project our greatest fears on death, and we make every effort to ignore it." Padmasambhava

 

According to Tibetan tradition, the TBOTD was composed in the 8th century by Padmasambhava.

Great.....Can someone, perhaps you!!!!, answer my question then?

 

Why would the TBOTD say to "unite" Mahamudra & Dzogchen then?

 

Anyone??? My kingdom for a horse!!!!!

 

stefos

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi everyone,

 

I was reading a portion of the so called "Tibetan book of the dead" really about the dying & the bardo.

 

Anyway, It said there that if one combines Mahamudra & Dzogchen then the reading of the said book wasn't needed.

 

Now, when I spoke to a lama about this he said that Dzogchen & Mahamudra were the same state.

 

Not having practiced Mahamudra stages, Why would the TBOTD even say to mix/combines Mahamudra & Dzogchen?

 

Odd statement to make.

Any insights?

 

Ciao......

Perhaps the reason to combine the two is because pure Dzogchen, the ultimate state, the Great Perfection is the final result, and Mahamudra (although the end result is the same) contains the generation and completion stages.

 

In pure Dzogchen, you bypass the stages, leap-over, so, in a way, you are losing out in becoming familiar with the events and states that occur on the way to the Great Perfection. I'm not talking about the Dzogchen preliminary practices, but the pure Dzogchen: gaining the view, maintaining the view and never waivering from the view.

 

In Mahamudra, becoming aware of the stages and states (in the generation and completion stages) that you will pass through is a benefit, because you will go through the same states/stages when you die. It will be more familiar to you, more easily recognizable and you will know how to work with them.

 

So why not combine the too? Although it does seem a little redundant because they both lead to the same place.

 

TI

[C T]

Great.....Can someone, perhaps you!!!!, answer my question then?

 

Why would the TBOTD say to "unite" Mahamudra & Dzogchen then?

 

Anyone??? My kingdom for a horse!!!!!

 

stefos

If you are that keen, why not do some research to enable discovering the answer for yourself? Why do you feel the need to come here and seemingly goad others into presenting an answer to your question, as if you already know the answer, and would like to challenge another bum to see whose understanding is more or less superior?

 

For your interest, i would begin by directing you to read "The Union of Mahamudra & Dzogchen" by Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche. Its a valid source to ease some of your discontent.

[asunthatneversets]

Perhaps the reason to combine the two is because pure Dzogchen, the ultimate state, the Great Perfection is the final result, and Mahamudra (although the end result is the same) contains the generation and completion stages.

 

In pure Dzogchen, you bypass the stages, leap-over, so, in a way, you are losing out in becoming familiar with the events and states that occur on the way to the Great Perfection. I'm not talking about the Dzogchen preliminary practices, but the pure Dzogchen: gaining the view, maintaining the view and never waivering from the view.

 

In Mahamudra, becoming aware of the stages and states (in the generation and completion stages) that you will pass through is a benefit, because you will go through the same states/stages when you die. It will be more familiar to you, more easily recognizable and you will know how to work with them.

 

For Mahamudra, Mahayoga (generation stage) and Anuyoga (completion stage) only apply to 'form Mahamudra'. There is also 'formless Mahamudra' which does not implement generation and completion stage practices and is very similar to Dzogchen. It's actually believed that Gampopa received Dzogchen teachings from Milarepa and put his own spin on the four naljors of Dzogchen semde to create the four yogas which are the stages of formless Mahamudra. Formless Mahamudra ends up being essentially the same as the Dzogchen practice of tregchö.

Edited May 14, 2013 by asunthatneversets

[Vmarco]

Pure Dzogchen and Mahamudra involve Short Path literature that is fully unaccessible to Long Path inquirries. Ultimately, there are only two Paths,...and only one that uncovers the nature of spirituality. No one realizes nirvana from the Long Paths,...thus, all Long Paths lead to the Short Path. Until one realizes the Short Path, discussing pure Dzogchen and Mahamudra is futile.

 

A Canadian said:

 

"Waking up is not necessarily pleasant; you get to see why all this time, you chose to sleep.

 

When you wake up the first thing you will see is Reality does not exist for you, you exist for it. Shocking as it is when you let it in, there is rest.

 

You do not have to labor anymore to hold together a reality that does not exist; forcing something to be real that is not real.

You and this life you have been living are not real ...In letting it in, even through the shock... pain... shattering, there is rest.

 

Reality is when all you want to know is what is true ...just so that you can let it in and be true.

 

Reality is not a safe place for you - the you that you have created. It is the only place where you would die; where there is no room for your hopes, your dreams.

 

Once you have let it in, once you begin to re-awaken; to let Reality wake you up, nothing can get it out. That is the beginning of your end.

Waking up can be much more painful than the agony of your dream, but waking up is real."

 

What the Canadian is discussing is fully unavailable to one on the Long Path. One on the Long Path will not realize Truth Realization in this lifetime.

 

I've found some quotes of Paul Brunton helpful regarding the differences between the Long Path and the Short Path,...nevertheless, unless one has a predisposition towards truth realization, those quotes will not be very clear.

http://wisdomsgoldenrod.org/notebooks/23/5

[stefos]

If you are that keen, why not do some research to enable discovering the answer for yourself? Why do you feel the need to come here and seemingly goad others into presenting an answer to your question, as if you already know the answer, and would like to challenge another bum to see whose understanding is more or less superior?

 

For your interest, i would begin by directing you to read "The Union of Mahamudra & Dzogchen" by Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche. Its a valid source to ease some of your discontent.

Sir, ma'am, miss.......Excuse me.

 

I'm not here claiming to be anyone but a human being.

 

I never stated that I'm superior nor inferred such either. I only asked a question.

 

Why did you feel the need to "emotionalize" your question towards me with pushiness & angst?

 

Please, I'm here to ask and share when possible...that's all.

 

God bless you buddy,

Stefos

[C T]

Sir, ma'am, miss.......Excuse me.

 

I'm not here claiming to be anyone but a human being.

 

I never stated that I'm superior nor inferred such either. I only asked a question.

 

Why did you feel the need to "emotionalize" your question towards me with pushiness & angst?

 

Please, I'm here to ask and share when possible...that's all.

 

God bless you buddy,

Stefos

Ask and share is good. Goading, not so much.

[asunthatneversets]

For Mahamudra, Mahayoga (generation stage) and Anuyoga (completion stage) only apply to 'form Mahamudra'. There is also 'formless Mahamudra' which does not implement generation and completion stage practices and is very similar to Dzogchen. It's actually believed that Gampopa received Dzogchen teachings from Milarepa and put his own spin on the four naljors of Dzogchen semde to create the four yogas which are the stages of formless Mahamudra. Formless Mahamudra ends up being essentially the same as the Dzogchen practice of tregchö.

 

Another name for Formless Mahamudra is Essence Mahamudra (forgot to mention that in the other post above).

[Jetsun]

You guys really like to complicate Dzogchen and Mahamudra lol

[Anderson]

For Mahamudra, Mahayoga (generation stage) and Anuyoga (completion stage) only apply to 'form Mahamudra'. There is also 'formless Mahamudra' which does not implement generation and completion stage practices and is very similar to Dzogchen. It's actually believed that Gampopa received Dzogchen teachings from Milarepa and put his own spin on the four naljors of Dzogchen semde to create the four yogas which are the stages of formless Mahamudra. Formless Mahamudra ends up being essentially the same as the Dzogchen practice of tregchö.

 

I often wondered if there are any Longde remnants within kagyu since some claim that Milarepa had knowledge about longde.

[RongzomFan]

Kagyu is a school, not a teaching. The question does not make sense. But look into Chokgyur Lingpa and Rinchen Terdzö.

[RongzomFan]

Chokgyur Lingpa specifically revealed longde. And he was a Kagyu.

[Anderson]

Kagyu is a school, not a teaching. The question does not make sense. But look into Chokgyur Lingpa and Rinchen Terdzö.

 

Dear Sir,

 

It makes perfect sense to ask if there is Longde of Kagyu.

It is similar to saying mahamudra of kagyu, sakya, gelug ...etc...

[asunthatneversets]

I often wondered if there are any Longde remnants within kagyu since some claim that Milarepa had knowledge about longde.

 

I've been told that there are upadesha Mahamudra teachings which are along the same lines of Dzogchen updadesha. Although I suppose in the context of Dzogchen, Longde [klong sde] isn't technically upadesha, since upadesha translates to Mennagde [man ngag sde], but yes there are other Mahamudra teachings which are in the same vein as Longde/Mennagde. My friend who is involved with Drikung Kagyu says that those type of teachings do exist, however they aren't widely known, I know nothing about them.

[konchog uma]

drikung kagyu has a dzogchen lineage, ontul rinpoche is the current head. google yangzab

http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/Drikung_Yangzab

[RongzomFan]

If you are that keen, why not do some research to enable discovering the answer for yourself? Why do you feel the need to come here and seemingly goad others into presenting an answer to your question, as if you already know the answer, and would like to challenge another bum to see whose understanding is more or less superior?

 

 

stefos always does this kind of thing.

Edited May 29, 2013 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

bump

Edited May 29, 2013 by alwayson