A few words on Tai Ji Quan

[Cheshire Cat]

In this world full of great experts on "what Taiji Quan is", I should really bow down.

 

But please, take the time to read this little article in which the Great Master Wan Xiang Zhai talks about Tai Ji Quan.

 

 

 

As masters of the original ‘Taijiquan’, I should recommend the Yang brothers Shaohou and Chengfu. They are also old friends of mine, thus I know that this boxing really has some knowledge of mechanics, but out of one hundred persons not even one gains its essence, and even if one can gain it, it is still one-sided, because the basic skills of intuitive perception already died out a long time ago, thus their lower bodies have no real strength to speak of. Originally this boxing consisted of three fists, also called the "old three cuts", Mr. Wang Zongyue changed it into "thirteen postures", and it was later changed into as much as one hundred and forty or fifty postures, this is the major reason for the distortion.

For health preservation, it restrains the spirit and mettle, and brings discomfort to the practitioner. For combat, it harms the practitioner’s limbs and trunk, and causes the useful body to become a mechanical and stiff thing, it also disturbs the student’s nerves, and is nothing more than wasting one’s time. As for its method of training, a punch with a fist here, a slap with the palm there, a kick to the left, and another one to the right, that is pitiful and laughable.

As for dealing with an enemy in a fight, against a master-hand, please do not even consider it, if the adversary is not stiff and sluggish, even the famous masters of this boxing have no chance to apply their skills. These abuses are so big that ‘Taijiquan’ might soon become just a mere form comparable to a chess manual. For the last twenty years, most people who have studied this boxing have not been able to differentiate right and wrong, even if someone has been able to differentiate them, he has not been capable of putting it into practice. As for common students, most of them use their ears instead of their eyes.

So ruined is this boxing that it has become useless, this is really deplorable. I wish that the powerful members of this school would promptly and strictly clean it up, and attempt to develop it in the future. When the day of success comes, they will be held as the bosom friends of all the boxing fans. I dare to say that I understand ‘Taijiquan’ deeply, those who do not agree, can notify me or lay the blame on me, only the wise ones might understand. At the same time, I suppose those who have really gained something in their study of ‘Taijiquan’, when they read this, they will nod in agreement and cannot help laughing

.

 

 

 

You can find the complete interview here http://taijijourney.blogspot.it/2005/07/interview-with-mr-wang-xiangzhai.html

[baiqi]

This is WXZ's point of view. I do agree with most of what he said.

 

I think Taijiquan's main problem is too much forms.

However, there are some Taiji masters who were and are very good in combat.

 

Wang was not "against taijiquan", but believed it could be improved. He actually had much harscher criticism of the Shaolin schools of boxing.

[baiqi]

Oh, I disagree with Wang on the health preservation stuff.

 

Lots of people are benefiting from Taiji, I don't see how it could "damage the nerves". As far as I know, all scientific studies show good results on people doing it.

 

Even the "learning a long form" process is good for the brain, and could prevent degenerative sickness according to some studies. (I don't have the source, sorry)

 

I agree, however, on the combat part. Too much choregraphy makes you lose your spontaneity. Which can be very, very dangerous in a real fight.

I stopped being a taiji person after realising I could have the same benefits (and more) from other stuff. That doesn't mean taiji is ineffective.

[ChiDragon]

I have practiced Tai Ji for thirty-eight years. I do recognize all the health benefits and I feel like having a strong body as a tiger. My breaths are able to go deep down to the LDT. My muscles are strong and all my moves are swift. My nerves are sensitive which increase awareness. The sensitive nerves which give me fast reflexes to respond in any adverse situations. Like the other day, when I was watering my plants, a lizard ran out close to my left foot. At that instance, without any hesitation, I jumped up and stumped on the ground. I could have had killed the lizard instantly but I didn't. The lizard turned around and went back the way where it came from, two seconds, after my left foot landed on the ground.

If I hear a sound behind my back within my reach, I swear I will turn around with a Tai Ji move and put somebody in an awkward position before we both realize what happened.

Edited May 7, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Cheshire Cat]

Edited May 7, 2013 by DAO rain TAO

[Tung]

My belief is that what you put in to Taichi is what you get out.

 

I keep finding new ways to do it, different intentions focus and awareness, and to stretch and strengthen muscles while doing it.

[ChiDragon]

Well, muscles are not make for stretching but for contraction. I have not encountered any moves in Tai Ji that was stretched. If one pay close enough attention to all Tai Ji practitioners, one will see all the arms and legs were bent and never have stretched out. That is the principle of Yin-yang. The Yin is within Yang and Yang is within Yin. If the arms or legs were fully extended, then, we cannot be held accountable for this condition.

[PLB]

I read the whole interview and I am not sure Wan Xiang Zhai is being entirely serious.

 

Despite his comment to the contrary, I am pretty sure he knows exactly why the term "internal arts" became associated with Xing I, Bagua, and Tai Chi Chuan. He demonstrates an understanding of Taoist philosophy and yet blows off the theory of elixir by saying the abdomen is a place for intestines not for chi. Seems oddly mechanical for someone accusing tai chi chuan boxers as being robots.

 

I am pretty sure he knows Tai Chi Chuan didn't start with the Yang boys. His references to the San Feng tradition makes me more sure.

 

Looking at these things together, I think Wan is making a comment about the culture of making martial art available to all who would take it up.

 

Perhaps he merely wished to get a rise out of Sun Lu Tang.

[Wu Ming Jen]

To me it is directed at external forms of boxing. The verbiage of boxing and gestures, are from the generation that I have learned Tai Chi Chuan from.

 

Then it goes on to direct attention to internal boxers using external strenght and not comprehending the art of softness. 13 36 and 108 has meaning, those numbers being changed loses the original intention and meaning of the forms.

 

He is right from one perspective of Tai Chi Chuan losing its superior boxing method against strength and stiffness. Tai Chi Chuan wants to deal with strength, a lot of force and muscle binding to produce strikes so that the techniques are effective and useful. If we encounter emptiness, no resistance or softness BEWARE stick follow and redirect to another direction if they have not fallen for the original trap.

 

The chess component of Tai Chi Chuan is crucial to success. Using a modern form of pinyin translation of taijiQuan does not match with the other words used in the dialogue, to me I find it odd.

 

Yang Chen Fu is a latter addition that made Yang style famous mainly for teaching to the public and a good personality / lots of students. Yang lu Chan who learned from Chen family is just an amazing legacy.

 

The health benefits of Tai Chi Chuan is immediately noticeable within three month of good practice but the martial skill if not required first as in Wudang system takes a long time and needs to be taught or it is just dancing. I learned in a Temple and it is frustrating in the west to see that Many teachers have no Gung Fu. Even if a student has no interest in martial arts they need to know why they are moving in such away, talk about scattered energy with no direction or purpose.

[baiqi]

I read the whole interview and I am not sure Wan Xiang Zhai is being entirely serious.

Oh, I believe he is!

 

 

 

Despite his comment to the contrary, I am pretty sure he knows exactly why the term "internal arts" became associated with Xing I, Bagua, and Tai Chi Chuan.

Probably. The creation of the term "internal martial arts" was made a short time before this, It seems that he wants Chinese arts to get rid of this distinction.

 

 

He demonstrates an understanding of Taoist philosophy and yet blows off the theory of elixir by saying the abdomen is a place for intestines not for chi. Seems oddly mechanical for someone accusing tai chi chuan boxers as being robots.

Absolutely. I think this is partly due to the western "rational" thinking starting to prevail in China at the time...

I also wonder if (but that would mean he really didn't have clue about qi) he coniders qi to be air (which is one possible translation...However in that context it is a totally different thing!)

By the way, it is now proven that the abdomen is the "second brain", there are some neurons there! This was unknown at that time, but daoists had this understanding.

 

 

 

Perhaps he merely wished to get a rise out of Sun Lu Tang.

That might very well be the case, especially if you read the part about Xingyi quan. Sun Lutang's books are all about relating movements and postures to classical Chinese cosmology. Sun and Wang both were Guo Yunshen's disciples, but did something completly different with internal arts: Wang tried to modernize , simplify them (in terms of complexity of movements...), whereas Sun Lutang made a rather complex Taiji form with elements of Xingyi and Bagua.

 

I think both approaches have their advantages and flaws. I don't see why the two should be in opposition, it is like a yin/ yang thing, they should complete each other, instead.

Edited May 8, 2013 by baiqi

[PLB]

baiqii,

Yes, it was the close connection with Guo Yunshen that got me thinking about Sun Lutang.

 

By saying that Wang wasn't entirely serious, I didn't mean to say that he didn't want to make a sharp demarcation between what he was focused upon versus what others talked about. As your own comments suggest, there was more to what was being said and not said than the comments reveal taken by themselves. There was a context and it is difficult to grasp all the elements of it now.

 

One way to look at it is to see all of that generation we can access now as being concerned with the "modern." I am reluctant to frame the matter as one of western rationality versus eastern intuition because the Taoist tradition has its own rationality, logic, and metaphysics. That is why I thought Wang might be joking a little bit.

 

Thank you for bringing Wang's views forward. I will look further into his work.

Edited May 8, 2013 by PLB

[Cheshire Cat]

edited

Edited May 9, 2013 by DAO rain TAO

[Cheshire Cat]

 

 

Absolutely. I think this is partly due to the western "rational" thinking starting to prevail in China at the time...

I also wonder if (but that would mean he really didn't have clue about qi) he coniders qi to be air (which is one possible translation...However in that context it is a totally different thing!)

By the way, it is now proven that the abdomen is the "second brain", there are some neurons there! This was unknown at that time, but daoists had this understanding.

 

It's a well known fact that Master Wang was able to project his energy and to throw his enemy away without efforts: it's enough to think at the Great Master Sewai who cannot defeat him and became his disciple.

That said, I think that modern practitioners should consider his view carefully because to examine martial art theories was the goal of his life... and if he said that the idea of filling the dantien with Qi is a misunderstanding, there is some truth in it.

 

Yes, this requires self-criticism because some people today consider QiGong as the way to be a 2nd Jesus...

 

"Therefore, using strength is a great taboo in combat science. As for the theory of the dantian qi, from the theoretical point of view, field tests, and my own perception from experience and observation, this theory does not seem proper. Within the abdomen there are the intestines, the stomach, and the liver, there is no place to fill with the qi. As for the functions of force, they are all effects of the opposite power, the explosive power, and the power of the universe combined, and exerted together with breath that makes the body bulge and undulate, open and close, and the body and spirit being integrated with the atmosphere in one's mind.

 

That has nothing to do with what the people call the qi of qigong. They always take a potbelly as dantian qi, that is just extremely wrong. One must know that when exerted, the strength must be issued evenly and completely. In order to be entirely free from worry and to gain strength, one should also be at leisure and natural, that is just being reasonable. The students of modern times do not understand this truth, they spend dozens of years working hard, and instead of gaining lively bodies and minds from the training, they become machines. Is that not a great pity!"

Edited May 9, 2013 by DAO rain TAO

[orb]

It's a well known fact that Master Wang was able to project his energy and to throw his enemy away without efforts: it's enough to think at the Great Master Sewai who cannot defeat him and became his disciple.

That said, I think that modern practitioners should consider his view carefully because to examine martial art theories was the goal of his life... and if he said that the idea of filling the dantien with Qi is a misunderstanding, there is some truth in it.

 

Yes, this requires self-criticism because some people today consider QiGong as the way to be a 2nd Jesus...

 

"Therefore, using strength is a great taboo in combat science. As for the theory of the dantian qi, from the theoretical point of view, field tests, and my own perception from experience and observation, this theory does not seem proper. Within the abdomen there are the intestines, the stomach, and the liver, there is no place to fill with the qi. As for the functions of force, they are all effects of the opposite power, the explosive power, and the power of the universe combined, and exerted together with breath that makes the body bulge and undulate, open and close, and the body and spirit being integrated with the atmosphere in one's mind.

 

That has nothing to do with what the people call the qi of qigong. They always take a potbelly as dantian qi, that is just extremely wrong. One must know that when exerted, the strength must be issued evenly and completely. In order to be entirely free from worry and to gain strength, one should also be at leisure and natural, that is just being reasonable. The students of modern times do not understand this truth, they spend dozens of years working hard, and instead of gaining lively bodies and minds from the training, they become machines. Is that not a great pity!"

 

In this world full of great experts on "what Taiji Quan is", I should really bow down.

 

But please, take the time to read this little article in which the Great Master Wan Xiang Zhai talks about Tai Ji Quan.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You can find the complete interview here http://taijijourney.blogspot.it/2005/07/interview-with-mr-wang-xiangzhai.html

 

Good article - straight to the point. For a lot of people is hard to accept that because of the time and money invested in their own path and teachesr - it's hard to admit that you were on the wrong path and never learned anything.

 

But it's never too late to accept that although it takes big donkey balls to do that.

 

The question is always - were do you find a good teacher like that?

 

Also question - is that your website?

[Cheshire Cat]

 

 

Also question - is that your website?

 

No no

[baiqi]

and if he said that the idea of filling the dantien with Qi is a misunderstanding, there is some truth in it.

Not sure. It's not because one great master said something that it's right.

Some people might misunderstand the idea of filling the dantian with qi, but that doesn't make the idea wrong. Other masters with as much ability as Wang's said the opposite. And you have this concept in many of internal martial arts classics. I'd be very surprised if there was nothing. Actually my own experience is that there is "qi".

 

But, granted, this is only one component of the internal martial arts.

 

Another thing about this article: I don't particulary like Wang critisizing all schools of martial arts (except bagua maybe...). He reminds me of Musashi in the chapter "wind" from the Book of the five rings. The big difference is that Musashi did not name the schools but rather talked about their flaws and advantages. (Ex: the schools that use only big or small swords).

This is much more ethical, and realistic as well: I'm sure you can find great experts in any of the aformentioned schools, there are always gifted individuals.

[Cheshire Cat]

Another thing about this article: I don't particulary like Wang critisizing all schools of martial arts (except bagua maybe...). He reminds me of Musashi in the chapter "wind" from the Book of the five rings. The big difference is that Musashi did not name the schools but rather talked about their flaws and advantages. (Ex: the schools that use only big or small swords).

This is much more ethical, and realistic as well: I'm sure you can find great experts in any of the aformentioned schools, there are always gifted individuals.

 

He openly criticized those schools because he was open to any challenge.

None was able to win.

 

In addition, he was a recognized expert in all the discipline that he criticized.

He didnt' talk about karate or judo because he wasn't an accomplished master in these disciplines.

[ChiDragon]

He openly criticized those schools because he was open to any challenge.

None was able to win.

 

Is that a fact.....???

 

 

PS....

This is only a curiosity, not a challenge.......!!!

Edited May 9, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Cheshire Cat]

Is that a fact.....???

 

Yes, if anyone thought that he was teaching non-sense, they could freely have a fight to see in practice.

After some time, the condition was "if you can win against the elder disciples, then you can fight with the Master".

[baiqi]

He openly criticized those schools because he was open to any challenge.

None was able to win.

So was Musashi...in death and life sword-fights.

 

And the second sentence is not true:

 

 

 

我在國內參學万余里，拜見拳家逾千人，堪稱通家者僅有兩個半人，即湖南解鐵夫，福建方恰庄与上海吳翼翬耳。 I have traveled across the country in research, engaging over a thousand people in martial combat, there have been only 2.5 people I could not defeat, namely Hunan's Xie Tie Fu, Fujian's Fang Yi Zhuang and Shanghai's Wu Yi Hui.

 

That's not too bad already....

[林愛偉]

I feel Master Wang's commentary is right on point. When I learned Yiquan internal exercises from Sifu Rudy Curry, it was one of the most profound sets I learned growing up and the points in this article/interview on intuition, posture, etc are what I was told when learning, and are very important.

 

Today's world of martial arts does look like a big circus, full of high acted egos and low level skills made to look like they are ultimate.

[Cheshire Cat]

edit

Edited May 10, 2013 by DAO rain TAO