Taoist Cosmology

[Maddie]

Much in the same way that in science Einsteins relativity theory explains the universe on a large scale and quantum theory explains the universe on a small scale but the two theories don't make sense with each other, I'm pondering my own quandary in this regard. Just like physics is hoping string theory will unify and explain everything, I'm looking for my own piece of string.

 

So on one hand you have Taoist cosmology which explains Tao (emptiness) Wuji (0) Taichi (1) Yin/Yang (2) Three treasures (3) [jing,qi,shen], five elements (5) bagua (8) and then the 10,000 things (infinity). Ok so there we have the universe. Relativity.

 

Then you have day to day life on a personal level. Your own yin/yang, jing,qi,shen, five elements ect.. that make up you, and your daily interactions with others.

 

So here is the piece of string I'm looking for. If greater Taoist (or any other) philosophy or cosmology is meant to explain the way things really are, and not just be something cool to talk about with shrimp cocktail then how can we use the big picture of Tao, creation, the universe, the elements to not only explain the existence of reality, but your interaction with the person taking your order at McDonalds? or stubbing your toe on the neighbor's kid's tricycle?

[dawei]

Nice thread.

 

The cosmology sequence aside as "the" taoist understanding or not...

 

I would look to Chapter 64:

"A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step."

This may be the more practical application.

But I think they both reflect an 'unfolding' existence.

[cheya]

Hi DMW,

 

This question has occurred to me also.

 

I JUST got Damo Mitchell's newest book, Heavenly Streams:Meridian Theory in Nei Gong.

I've only read about a third of it, but Damo has done an excellent job of relating overarching Taoist theory to meridian theory and personal energy balancing. He starts his explanation with tao, wuji, yin yang, 5 elements, and shows how the human meridian/energy system relates to/is part of/ and is influenced by the whole cosmos. I've read a lot of this stuff (with widely varying degress of understanding), but this is the best and most useful explanation I have read. Useful both because the explanation is linear, and because he gives simple exercises to bring the student/reader along with his explanation. This fellow is a really good teacher! I'll do a thorough review once I've digested the book a bit more, but you might want to look into it, as I think it addresses your question pretty well.

 

Aren't you studying acupuncture?... seems like they would address this right from the git go...

[Maddie]

Hi DMW,

 

This question has occurred to me also.

 

I JUST got Damo Mitchell's newest book, Heavenly Streams:Meridian Theory in Nei Gong.

I've only read about a third of it, but Damo has done an excellent job of relating overarching Taoist theory to meridian theory and personal energy balancing. He starts his explanation with tao, wuji, yin yang, 5 elements, and shows how the human meridian/energy system relates to/is part of/ and is influenced by the whole cosmos. I've read a lot of this stuff (with widely varying degress of understanding), but this is the best and most useful explanation I have read. Useful both because the explanation is linear, and because he gives simple exercises to bring the student/reader along with his explanation. This fellow is a really good teacher! I'll do a thorough review once I've digested the book a bit more, but you might want to look into it, as I think it addresses your question pretty well.

 

Aren't you studying acupuncture?... seems like they would address this right from the git go...

Hmm yea that sounds very interesting. Yes I am studying acupuncture which makes this book seem all the more interesting :-)

[silas]

So here is the piece of string I'm looking for. If greater Taoist (or any other) philosophy or cosmology is meant to explain the way things really are, and not just be something cool to talk about with shrimp cocktail then how can we use the big picture of Tao, creation, the universe, the elements to not only explain the existence of reality, but your interaction with the person taking your order at McDonalds? or stubbing your toe on the neighbor's kid's tricycle?

 

From classical Taoism:

 

Social Delinquency, Benevolence and Self-Sacrifice: The Integral Role Of Inner Nature In World Harmony (global social theory)

Resolving Intense Synchronicity In An Acausal Universe (cosmology based on acausal reality)

Interfaith, Syncretism And Universal Love: A Study Of New Age Taoism (pluralism and religion within Tao)

The Outer Nature In Mystical Te (about the form of things in creation)

Recognizing The True Form Of Things (about assessing form)

Gay Marriage And Mystical Te (same sex relations)

Edited May 11, 2013 by silas

[Stosh]

Its a great question, already

But what do you mean by 'explain'?

Does the explanation on a cosmic scale not seem to

Work on the mundane scale?

There are different orders of magnitude at which particular

Laws hold sway , it is the role of tao as a practice, in its many

Forms , to convey how the basic laws apply at the level you witness

Them is it not?

Even so , there is, that which is, and at some logically derived point

Causal explanations fall apart, that is where some cultures insert a god figure, to

play the role of originz tor, creator , anchor of the universe. I personally don't need to go that last step so I can intuitively be comfortable with the design of the universe, I just go ahead and accept it right there at the point where things just run to speculative fancy.

Edited May 12, 2013 by Stosh

[寒月 Hanyue]

.

Edited May 13, 2013 by snowmonki

[Apech]

Man follows Earth.
Earth follows heaven.
Heaven follows the Tao.
Tao follows what is natural. (or its own nature).

 

So the way 'man' (meaning mankind) behaves follows earth and so on. Or put it another way all levels of interaction (cosmic/human etc.) follow the way ... by understanding nature we can understand ourselves ... even to point of the conversation in MacDonalds ...

[silas]

I do not view 'the three' from Lao Zi's "Dao sheng yi, yi sheng er, er sheng san, san sheng wanwu.." as jing-qi-shen but as the sancai 三纔 (tian-di-ren: Heaven-Earth-Mankind). Sancai as a term also simply means "everything", and was used as the term for 'encyclopedia' because of this.

 

The three from TTC ch. 42 interpreted as Heaven-Earth-Mankind is part of the old triad and often Man was sandwiched in between the two, because it gave Man the ability to mediate between Heaven and Earth. Heaven and Earth as synonyms for Great Yang and Great Yin are engine of creation, and the triad gave Man a role to control creation.

[lienshan]

Tao follows what is natural.

 

Isn't Earth natural?

[JustARandomPanda]

I've been asking myself similar questions but within the past few days whenever that happens I try to look for the tendency to want to understand things conceptually. Which as I understand by default won't answer such questions. Hard to get away from them though I know.

 

I sometimes like to watch the following to remind myself of the above.

 

[Maddie]

I've been asking myself similar questions but within the past few days whenever that happens I try to look for the tendency to want to understand things conceptually. Which as I understand by default won't answer such questions. Hard to get away from them though I know.

 

I sometimes like to watch the following to remind myself of the above.

 

that was very interesting.

[Wayfarer]

"how can we use the big picture of Tao, creation, the universe, the elements to not only explain the existence of reality, but your interaction with the person taking your order at McDonalds? or stubbing your toe on the neighbor's kid's tricycle?"

 

I'll give this a go...the bit you write here: "Tao (emptiness) Wuji (0) Taichi (1) Yin/Yang (2) Three treasures (3) [jing,qi,shen], five elements (5) bagua (8) and then the 10,000 things (infinity)". We have to understand this first as it is a mistake - not of yours by the way.

 

There is only Tao. What is present everywhere is empty because it is full. The 10,000 things we see are not a 'they' but an 'it' - we have grown used to separating them and calling one thing light and the other dark but light and dark are the same thing. Light is Tao, dark is Tao. We only notice light and dark when we overlook Tao.

 

Tai Chi, Yin/Yang, Three treasures, five elements, Bagua and the myriad things do not exist - they are all ideas that stem from ignorance. If no one was ignorant and therefore everyone was Awake Yin and Yang would never have come into being because they never have - they are only an idea of the mind, created by someone/some people who are yet to Awaken. The universe being a single thing becomes nothing as there is nothing but IT. So emptiness is a fullness that is empty of distinction. The difficulty is...unless we are no longer ignorant we see the world through a veil, when we raise that veil the world looks no different, it remains exactly as it did before we raised the veil - the key difference being that a) the self realises SELF or b ) the self cannot locate itself and realises it does not exist - either way is a beginning of understanding for neither self nor SELF is true. It is not right to say the world is empty or full - it is neither empty nor not-empty, full nor not-full - if we say there is one, we in effect create the other and this cannot be so as there is neither one nor the other.

 

So if I order a McDonalds...the me that orders it and the person who takes the order are the Same. The me that speaks to the 'other-than-me' that hears are not distinct. The money I pay with and the food I am given is the same ME. So, when I give money to someone this implies I am suddenly lacking something I once had and in return I hope to receive something I don't have but this is to misunderstand...If I pay £5 I do not lack something or lessen in any way when I hand over that money...nor do I gain anything when I receive the food. When I leave the restaurant, it does not lack me and wherever I go to afterwards does not gain me. What I am is everywhere all at once and is everything all at once - so essentially if I walk a hundred yards I have gone nowhere. If I give everything I possess to someone I am not lessened. If I receive vast wealth I have not gained for what I am cannot increase or be decreased for it is All-that-is.

 

If we go to a restaurant and think the person serving us is 'other-than-me' we are ignorant. That person serving you is WHAT IS, what they give you is WHAT IS and what you are is WHAT IS. When you realise this, thoughts of gaining and losing end because it is not possible to become more or less than what you Are.

 

Hope this helps lol!

 

Heath

Edited May 12, 2013 by Wayfarer

[Maddie]

I remember reading a few years ago that the ancient Taoists had been saying that we are made out of stardust, which in our day and age has been confirmed by science. All the heavier elements were made by exploding stars, and the Taoists knew this thousands of years ago... cool.

[Maddie]

Found something that touches on my question lol

 

[Maddie]

Found this interesting too.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_cosmology

[lienshan]

So on one hand you have Taoist cosmology which explains Tao (emptiness) Wuji (0) Taichi (1) Yin/Yang (2) Three treasures (3) [jing,qi,shen], five elements (5) bagua (8) and then the 10,000 things (infinity).

 

The very first taoist cosmology prior to 312 BC was:

 

The Great One gave birth to the Water.

The return of the Water assisted the Great One,

because of that completing the heaven.

The heavenly return was a large assistence,

because of that completing the earth.

The return of the heaven and the earth was a mutual assistence,

because of that completing the spirits and the minds.

The return of the spirits and the minds was a mutual assistence,

because of that completing the yin and the yang.

 

And a contemporary taoist commentary was:

 

Tao gave birth to a first one.

The first one gave birth to a second one.

The second one gave birth to a third one.

The third one gave birth to everyone.

Everyone carry Yin on the shoulders and embrace Yang.

Bathwater and Qi are considered complementary.

 

The last line refers to the term "Water" in the first line of the cosmology:

To the ancient Zhou belief was the Milky Way “Tian Ho” the celestial counterpart of "Ho" the Yellow River.

 

You'll probably remember this post the next time you order a glas of water at McDonalds ... Cheers

[Maddie]

I was reading that wiki article about Buddhist cosmology and while it was interesting I found a few problems with it. One was that it said that humans came first and then animals, but science shows the opposite.

[lienshan]

One of the Worlds greatest cosmology science links is this one from my country: http://dark.nbi.ku.dk/

[Maddie]

One of the Worlds greatest cosmology science links is this one from my country: http://dark.nbi.ku.dk/

University of Copenhagen... nice

 

Another problem I was pondering considering Buddhist cosmology was that it said humans came from beings who were in a higher plane, so when they first came to earth they had light bodies, and could fly, and only gradually as they ate more earth food lost this and had shorter life spans.

 

Obviously this goes against everything we know about evolution.

Edited May 13, 2013 by dmattwads

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Hey Matt

 

You might find some interesting angles this thread on ecology and Daoism:

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/26992-daoism-ecology-and-action/

Edited May 14, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Stosh]

Bathwater and Qi are complementary?

Ah ha ha ha ha

[liminal_luke]

Taoist cosmology finds it's practical application in alchemy.

 

It seems to me there are two fundamental directions we can go as alchemists, I believe it's important to develop facility in both of them. The question is at what level of consciousness (10,000 things, 5 elements, yin yang, tai chi, wuji, etc) are we functioning at and where are we headed. So...we can be functioning on a 10,000 things level and go in the direction of wuji. Or we can be at wuji and go in the direction of the 10,000 things.

 

Usually I operate on the 10,000 things plane where everything seems separate and unrelated. There's you and there's me and we're not somehow mystically the same, we're separate beings. On an intrapersonal level this is true as well: I'm living in my head and feel alienated from, say, my liver.

 

Doing five elements practice takes me one step closer to wuji. I no longer consider everything as separate and distinct but "chunk" phenomena into five different piles. Everything wood gets thrown together (chunked) in the same category--my liver, my nerves, my anger, my hun spirits, the feeling of spring, everything that expands and grows, everything that evolves or wants to, the west, the planet Jupiter (if I'm remembering correctly), etc. This helps me feel less separate, more in relationship. If I'm doing healing work with someone and I get my own liver really clean and pure than I'll not only be able to feel the state of my own wood element, I'll also be in touch with the wood element of the other person.

 

Want to go further along the road to wuji? Leave the five elements behind and begin deeper alchemical processes like kan and li. This means further chunking. Instead of five piles everything gets sorted into two: yin and yang. Put wood together with fire; both yang. Put metal together with water; both yin. Earth is already holding to the center as it is and is a special case. Then turn on your alchemical stove by putting the fire underneath the pot of water, maybe add a little lightening to spark the whole process, and voila!--pretty soon instead of 2 separate elements (yin and yang) you have a nice steam going. As yin and yang cook together there's a deeper sense of neutrality emerges. There's the void, an emptiness that is paradoxically full.

 

Of course this isn't the end. We haven't really arrived at wuji yet. This is just as far as I know how to explain is all. But we're closer and we've used the map of taoist cosmology to understand the process.

[Maddie]

Taoist cosmology finds it's practical application in alchemy.

 

It seems to me there are two fundamental directions we can go as alchemists, I believe it's important to develop facility in both of them. The question is at what level of consciousness (10,000 things, 5 elements, yin yang, tai chi, wuji, etc) are we functioning at and where are we headed. So...we can be functioning on a 10,000 things level and go in the direction of wuji. Or we can be at wuji and go in the direction of the 10,000 things.

 

Usually I operate on the 10,000 things plane where everything seems separate and unrelated. There's you and there's me and we're not somehow mystically the same, we're separate beings. On an intrapersonal level this is true as well: I'm living in my head and feel alienated from, say, my liver.

 

Doing five elements practice takes me one step closer to wuji. I no longer consider everything as separate and distinct but "chunk" phenomena into five different piles. Everything wood gets thrown together (chunked) in the same category--my liver, my nerves, my anger, my hun spirits, the feeling of spring, everything that expands and grows, everything that evolves or wants to, the west, the planet Jupiter (if I'm remembering correctly), etc. This helps me feel less separate, more in relationship. If I'm doing healing work with someone and I get my own liver really clean and pure than I'll not only be able to feel the state of my own wood element, I'll also be in touch with the wood element of the other person.

 

Want to go further along the road to wuji? Leave the five elements behind and begin deeper alchemical processes like kan and li. This means further chunking. Instead of five piles everything gets sorted into two: yin and yang. Put wood together with fire; both yang. Put metal together with water; both yin. Earth is already holding to the center as it is and is a special case. Then turn on your alchemical stove by putting the fire underneath the pot of water, maybe add a little lightening to spark the whole process, and voila!--pretty soon instead of 2 separate elements (yin and yang) you have a nice steam going. As yin and yang cook together there's a deeper sense of neutrality emerges. There's the void, an emptiness that is paradoxically full.

 

Of course this isn't the end. We haven't really arrived at wuji yet. This is just as far as I know how to explain is all. But we're closer and we've used the map of taoist cosmology to understand the process.

Excellent answer

[Maddie]

Taoist cosmology finds it's practical application in alchemy.

 

It seems to me there are two fundamental directions we can go as alchemists, I believe it's important to develop facility in both of them. The question is at what level of consciousness (10,000 things, 5 elements, yin yang, tai chi, wuji, etc) are we functioning at and where are we headed. So...we can be functioning on a 10,000 things level and go in the direction of wuji. Or we can be at wuji and go in the direction of the 10,000 things.

 

Usually I operate on the 10,000 things plane where everything seems separate and unrelated. There's you and there's me and we're not somehow mystically the same, we're separate beings. On an intrapersonal level this is true as well: I'm living in my head and feel alienated from, say, my liver.

 

Doing five elements practice takes me one step closer to wuji. I no longer consider everything as separate and distinct but "chunk" phenomena into five different piles. Everything wood gets thrown together (chunked) in the same category--my liver, my nerves, my anger, my hun spirits, the feeling of spring, everything that expands and grows, everything that evolves or wants to, the west, the planet Jupiter (if I'm remembering correctly), etc. This helps me feel less separate, more in relationship. If I'm doing healing work with someone and I get my own liver really clean and pure than I'll not only be able to feel the state of my own wood element, I'll also be in touch with the wood element of the other person.

 

Want to go further along the road to wuji? Leave the five elements behind and begin deeper alchemical processes like kan and li. This means further chunking. Instead of five piles everything gets sorted into two: yin and yang. Put wood together with fire; both yang. Put metal together with water; both yin. Earth is already holding to the center as it is and is a special case. Then turn on your alchemical stove by putting the fire underneath the pot of water, maybe add a little lightening to spark the whole process, and voila!--pretty soon instead of 2 separate elements (yin and yang) you have a nice steam going. As yin and yang cook together there's a deeper sense of neutrality emerges. There's the void, an emptiness that is paradoxically full.

 

Of course this isn't the end. We haven't really arrived at wuji yet. This is just as far as I know how to explain is all. But we're closer and we've used the map of taoist cosmology to understand the process.

Yea I think what you said is just brilliant lol.

 

You know I was meditating and thought about this more. I still use the five element approach a lot when it comes to helping patients, but have noticed this general inclination towards Vipassana and Samatha practice lately, as opposed to the five element practice that I used to do so often when I started. What I also found interesting was the common thread between what you said about narrowing things down in Taoist cosmology and a common denominator between Buddhist and Taoist thought and practice.

 

So working with the five elements is a bit more form based, as you focus on that element/organ in your body. I guess this would be more equivalent to some of the form based Tantra practices of Tibetan or esoteric Buddhism. This practice seemed to be quite effective at the time with helping me to deal with thoughts and feelings as they arose, at least for a while. The thing I would notice though while doing this practice was at a point I felt like I plateaued and felt like I had dealt with most of the long term stuff on this level and that now I wasn't getting very far like I used to. The results started to seem short lived and temporary.

 

So looking for an explanation I began to gravitate towards Vipassana and Samatha practice. Now to me the Buddhist Vipassana and Samatha practice seem to me like Taoist yin and yang. Samatha being more still would be yin, while Vipassana being more active would be yang. So now instead of a five element level things seem to have gone to a level of dualism. This also seems to reflect my experience during practice as well. In the past with a more five element based practice I would deal with the various emotions that arose from the five elements such as anger, fear, worry, sadness, and excitement. Now doing a more yin/yang practice my experience is more like an awareness of craving vs aversion or to put it another way craving vs anti-craving (another term for aversion). A polarity of opposites, yin and yang.

 

Also insightful is the realization that the various emotions that the five elements give rise to are simply various manifestations of yin and yang, craving and aversion. Thus in the cosmological sense its an insight into how yin and yang gave rise to the five elements. It also seems to go to a way deeper level than the five element practice formerly did, and I suppose this is due to the fact that since yin and yang give rise to the five elements they would be on a deeper level.

 

For example formerly if I felt anger the way I would go about dealing with it would be to meditate on the liver/wood element. Now if I feel anger and I do Vipassana I see that "anger" comes about because either a desire I have is not being fulfilled or an aversion that I have is being fulfilled. So that's the dualistic explanation. Of course then if you wanted to see how that further progressed to play out at the next level of the five elements then you could see how if you have a particular desire for example your liver/wood element would make a plan to meet that desire as that is the function of the wood element. Then if something comes along and interferes with your plan now you feel anger or frustration which is the emotion of the wood element. But if you can go to the level of yin and yang first before it manifests at the five element level and lessen desire in the first place then it never gets to the five element level.

 

Now this part is conjecture since I have not gotten there yet, but I suppose that beyond yin and yang the level of wuji or as the Buddhists would say emptiness/stillness is the next step. If you are at wuji or emptiness then there is not even a duality of aversion and desire. Then further after wuji is Tao and I guess at that point your a Buddha or Taoist immortal. Ok but one step at a time haha.

Edited May 21, 2013 by dmattwads