Five Elements or Four Elements?

[Horus]

The Taoist view holds 5 elements while the western tradition holds that there are 4 elements.

 

Can everyone please share their understanding of how the two systems translate?

What is the relationship between the air element and the metal element, and the addition of the wood element. I nkow that the 5th western element is ether, but how does this relate to metal and wood?

 

I know that the Taoist way was derived from the process of nature observed, but so was the western element view.

 

Personally I'm more comfortable with the Taoist view, but just want to meld them together...

[林愛偉]

The Taoist view holds 5 elements while the western tradition holds that there are 4 elements.

 

Can everyone please share their understanding of how the two systems translate?

What is the relationship between the air element and the metal element, and the addition of the wood element. I nkow that the 5th western element is ether, but how does this relate to metal and wood?

 

I know that the Taoist way was derived from the process of nature observed, but so was the western element view.

 

Personally I'm more comfortable with the Taoist view, but just want to meld them together...

 

Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal, Water: Daoist

 

Earth, Air, Fire, Water: Western Traditions

 

 

Earth= Wood (Wood is a derivative of Earth, and its own opposing force. Wood can constrict Earth.)

 

Air= Metal ( Lungs and Large Intestines are of the designation of Metal in Chinese Medicine.)

[Maddie]

Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal, Water: Daoist

 

Earth, Air, Fire, Water: Western Traditions

 

 

Earth= Wood (Wood is a derivative of Earth, and its own opposing force. Wood can constrict Earth.)

 

Air= Metal ( Lungs and Large Intestines are of the designation of Metal in Chinese Medicine.)

I'll agree with you that Air=Metal.

 

My take on wood is that its a combination of earth and water, thus the extra element of Taoism. You water the earth and a tree sprouts out. Wood is the generative life force. Or another way to put it water (sperm) and earth (womb) make new life (wood).

[Gerard]

.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Gerard

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

somehow i dont feel confident with the answers given.

[Stosh]

energy gasses liquids solids ,,organics

[Apech]

Its probably not very helpful to say this but looking for one to one correspondence between systems is fraught with difficulty and a lot of the time pointless. Each system is complete in itself and uniquely expresses its own insights ... just because the Wuxing are translated as 'elements' does not mean you can line them up against the western elements because the significance is subtly different. Better to understand each in the contest of the whole system in which they operate and then if you wish make comparisons. Its a bit like the cakra/dantien comparisons which never exactly match.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

uhh...

 

 

 

20E works for me.



4 tiers or "houses" of elements, each bearing a unit of 5 element cycles.

Each house operates like the 4E system in relation to one another.

20E "improper chart"


It could be considered appropriate to understand each tier can lead into eachother from any element TO any other element. either by a "holding" "replacing" "growing" or "shrinking" interaction between the two elements.



For example, lightning into magnetism would be a "hold".
The electricity would be replaced by the magnetism, which "holds" the electricity.

Fire into air would be a "replace".
The fire consumes the air and takes it's position.

Chi into body would be "growing".
Growth for the body and shrinkage for the chi.

and Mind into technology would be "shrinking".
Growth for the technology, shrinkage for the mind.*




* in this case it's like mass... fitting "more area" into "less space".


... speaking of which, the mind is under undue pressure and ready to burst...

Edited May 15, 2013 by Northern Avid Judo Ant

[baiqi]

There are actually five elements in the western cosmology as well, if consider "ether" as the fifth element.

 

I see connections between the western elements and the bagua. (eight trigramms). This is my understanding only.

 

Air: Qian (heaven) and Xun (wind)

Earth: Kun (earth) and Gèn (mountain)

Fire: Li (fire) and Zhen (thunder)

Water: Kan (deep waters) and Dui (marsh)

 

... the gua have their (traditionally Chinese) correspondances with the five elements.

[xor]

There are actually five elements in the western cosmology as well, if consider "ether" as the fifth element.

 

Yes, ether is quintessential in the western trad.

[zanshin]

I've heard metal correlated to air and wood correlated to ether (because it's a life principle by those who try to reconcile the two systems. I don't see the point in trying to correlate them though.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

i struck my head with a 20-E pondering until it found its way to paper... then refined and honed them until i had an appropriate cycle, or what appears to be appropriate. i could be wrong, but my peer-reviews arent helping.

So i'll cut to the chase:

With a comparison of TC5E and TW4E why not consider taking a look into merging them in a 20 element, 4 tier system?

Far as i can tell, the 4 tiers can accurately reflect the 4E system..... but i havent dedicated my mind to finding out, or discerning the correlations between the traditional chinese 5 set and ONE element on the 4 set... but i would assume the Earth, Fire, Wood, Water, Metal house/tier would correspond to the Earth element as an origin set, whereas the Magnetism, Mind, Chi, Spirit, Void house would be indicative of Air.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Northern Avid Judo Ant

[thelerner]

Whatever one's system, the value of element theory is how it personally effects you. How well you connect with the elements internally and externally. How you see and predict things by virtue of their interplay.

Edited May 16, 2013 by thelerner

[Walker]

The Taoist view holds 5 elements while the western tradition holds that there are 4 elements.

 

Can everyone please share their understanding of how the two systems translate?

What is the relationship between the air element and the metal element, and the addition of the wood element. I nkow that the 5th western element is ether, but how does this relate to metal and wood?

 

I know that the Taoist way was derived from the process of nature observed, but so was the western element view.

 

Personally I'm more comfortable with the Taoist view, but just want to meld them together...

 

Both systems are understood and spoken of in Chinese philosophy, medicine, cultivation, and so forth. In China the five phases are called the 五行 and the four elements are called the 四大.

 

The former refers to five states or phases of existence: growing/rising; expanding/flourishing; diminishing/falling; contracting/storing; and stable. It does not refer to literally to the materials of wood, fire, soil, metal, and water, even though those materials are used to represent these five states/phases.

 

The latter refers to the four fundamental constituents of the physical universe. The idea came to China alongside Buddhism and is considered an originally-Buddhist concept here.

 

When spoken of in China by those who understand this vocabulary there is no contradiction, because the two systems refer to different ideas. Therefore, in a single sentence one can refer to both systems without confusion nor need for reconciliation or melding, because the phases refer to phases and the elements refer to elements.

[Stosh]

Both systems are understood and spoken of in Chinese philosophy, medicine, cultivation, and so forth. In China the five phases are called the 五行 and the four elements are called the 四大.

 

The former refers to five states or phases of existence: growing/rising; expanding/flourishing; diminishing/falling; contracting/storing; and stable. It does not refer to literally to the materials of wood, fire, soil, metal, and water, even though those materials are used to represent these five states/phases.

 

The latter refers to the four fundamental constituents of the physical universe. The idea came to China alongside Buddhism and is considered an originally-Buddhist concept here.

 

When spoken of in China by those who understand this vocabulary there is no contradiction, because the two systems refer to different ideas. Therefore, in a single sentence one can refer to both systems without confusion nor need for reconciliation or melding, because the phases refer to phases and the elements refer to elements.

Interesting, so what are the elements supposed to be , if they arent our periodic table elements nor material phases,the 'phases' you describe are more trends than phase, wouldnt you agree?

phase (fz)

 

n.

1. A distinct stage of development: "The American occupation of Japan fell into three successive phases" (Edwin O. Reischauer).

2. A temporary manner, attitude, or pattern of behavior: just a passing phase.

3. An aspect; a part: every phase of the operation.

4. Astronomy One of the cyclically recurring apparent forms of the moon or a planet.

5. Physics

a. A particular stage in a periodic process or phenomenon.

b. The fraction of a complete cycle elapsed as measured from a specified reference point and often expressed as an angle.

6. Chemistry

a. Any of the forms or states, solid, liquid, gas, or plasma, in which matter can exist, depending on temperature and pressure.

b. A discrete homogeneous part of a material system that is mechanically separable from the rest, as is ice from water.

7. Biology A characteristic form, appearance, or stage of development that occurs in a cycle or that distinguishes some individuals of a group: the white color phase of a weasel; the swarming phase of locusts.

It makes sense to me to call them 'groupings of materials by kind' in some way ,

since wood , and soil are groups of materials not identical materials , and fire representing energies ( because what else did they have ?) and water being so unique and intergral to life is special.

( and for promoters of ether - what even might represent it? but OK)

The distinction you are making between phases and elements representing them is already understood generally to the point of being rather synonymous- in the west just as it is in China.

If the elements are imported Buddhist symbols so be it , its interesting though. Makes me wonder what religious Taoism looked like before the adoption.

How might you choose to describe the trend of contracting if not symbolizing it with something that contracts? are you saying that rising is an element bereft of its symbol? because that would be also a very interesting view,

( both pointing to rather poor choices in the words 'phase' and 'element' but its too late now)

Edited May 16, 2013 by Stosh

[xor]

Aether is simply void, lifeforce. From wikipedia:

 

"The word αἰθήρ (aithēr) in Homeric Greek means "pure, fresh air" or "clear sky", imagined in Greek mythology to be the pure essence where the gods lived and which they breathed, analogous to the air breathed by mortals"

 

Some modern people are equating it with dark matter/energy or higg's boson though that is not the same as the ether of the philosophers.

 

http://www.science20.com/alpha_meme/higgs_discovery_rehabilitating_despised_einstein_ether-85497

Edited May 16, 2013 by Guest

[Stosh]

Ok well then ,, ether is not air its a greek equivalent to air that gods breathe

which would be what ?

 

and if air is the representative element of the phase rising in tao

then ether isnt in the grouping of tao elements..

but you have some sort of sense of

believing in it?

So you dont go for the Tao elements-phase theory strictly speaking?

 

I doubt the classical authors had any clue about higgs bosun particles , dont you?

Edited May 16, 2013 by Stosh

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Aether is a pretty good equivalent for the fourth tier, all 5 elements are somewhat applicable.

Magnetism (not the electrical variety which we are familiar), Mind, Qi, Spirit, and Void. These are the breaths of the "gods" or Spirits.

But i would have to go with Void and Qi, specifically. Void is the pure emptyness that encompasses all material and Qi is the pure energy that fills the void and leaves no "empty" spots.

Much like a canvas is the void, the painting is Qi. if there is a blank spot on the canvas, it is not an accurate representation of Qi/Void.

[Stosh]

So the gods breathe- metal , earth, water , fire , and,, non-electromagnetism mind chi spirit empty space and ether !which is both a subcomponent and all of it combined .

Whats non -electromagnetism .....I guess its not electromagnetism thats for sure!

and chi which fills void which is pure emptiness .... so pure emptiness is full of chi so it isnt empty, but it is.

I think Im getting this now.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

im not sure if you're being sarcastic or satirical, but if you're seriously interested in my observations, i'll share them...

[Stosh]

Im not sure either , but I was tossing back to you the summation

I could make of what I am being told , are beliefs you hold.

So you can , on your own , see what a hash it appears to add up to.

and maybe do clarification , if that was your wont.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

So the gods breathe- metal , earth, water , fire , and,, non-electromagnetism mind chi spirit empty space and ether !which is both a subcomponent and all of it combined .

Whats non -electromagnetism .....I guess its not electromagnetism thats for sure!

and chi which fills void which is pure emptiness .... so pure emptiness is full of chi so it isnt empty, but it is.

I think Im getting this now.

 

 

"The' gods" is the first thing that needs be defined. Typically considered being beyond the bondage of time/space and energy/matter.

Therefore, all of space/time and energy/matter could be the equivalent of their food, drink, and air.

 

 

I would say that they are the "fifth tier" and, much like humans, are made up of the 5 elements of that tier, which is "outside" experiential reality. Like in computers, a driver of sorts.

 

 

The highest tier/lowest density elements would be their air.

 

One step down is Gravity, Electricity, Shadow, Air, and Light.

These are the drink(s) of the gods.

 

We occupy the second tier, Earth, Fire, Wood, Water, Metal. This is where the food of the gods is sown and reaped.

 

WE are the food of the gods, our emotions and ideas feed them. we are made up from the lowest tier/highest density, Technology, Ice, Poison, Magma, and Body.

 

WE are also the tier which the gods are sown, cultivated, and reaped. WE are the tier which the gods occupy.

[xor]

Ok well then ,, ether is not air its a greek equivalent to air that gods breathe which would be what ?

 

Spirit, lifeforce or qi.

 

and if air is the representative element of the phase rising in tao then ether isnt in the grouping of tao elements..

 

Well I'm only commenting on the western traditional elements here. I think others are more familiar with 五行 than I am.

 

but you have some sort of sense of believing in it?

 

Well I'm not much into believing anything but basically it fits my experience and observation.

 

I doubt the classical authors had any clue about higgs bosun particles , dont you?

 

Well they had no clue about "atoms" either and still the atomic philosophy of the ancient greeks inspired the birth of modern chemistry. I think that's the idea scientists inspired by the quinta essentia have.

[Horus]

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

damn, my chart looks like regurgitated feces compared to that! LOL