Five Elements or Four Elements?

[Horus]

damn, my chart looks like regurgitated feces compared to that! LOL

hey!!, some beings live on regurgitate feces!! lol each to their own

[Stosh]

Well, Horus has those nice comparative diagrams

And Judo has a personally satisfying game structure

And V doesn't really believe in five or four element structures

That's cool

But I think one must see what the plans actually indicate

What they are trying to parse into simpler mode , rather than just say

"Everything everywhere always is and does everything"

or something similarly so inclusive that its meaningless.

Like if Lao wrote everything is virtue depending on perspective and

circumstance. One is left with zero guidance.

My own system described is as inclusive as the rest , but it doesn't

set the rest in direct contradiction.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Stosh

[Stosh]

Well they had no clue about "atoms" either and still the atomic philosophy of the ancient greeks inspired the birth of modern chemistry. I think that's the idea scientists inspired by the quinta essentia have.

yeah that seems like a rational perspective on the roots of western science, and that is also where I see validity in the eastern alchemical traditions , as a seed for the future growth of eastern learning essentially eastern science, ( and since science is not subjective there are but two scientific traditions,, which is only one body of understanding now shared.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Stosh

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

"Everything everywhere always is and does everything"

or something similarly so inclusive that its meaningless.

 

 

 

you mean reality?

[Walker]

Interesting, so what are the elements supposed to be , if they arent our periodic table elements nor material phases,the 'phases' you describe are more trends than phase, wouldnt you agree?

phase (fz)

Definitions 1, 2, and 3 all relate to what I am talking about.

 

The point of 五行 theory is not that your body is an amalgamation of wood, water, fire, soil, and metal.

 

That this is true can be most easily grasped if one remembers that, to the Chinese, five phase theory is applied to temporal patterns perhaps more than anything else. Thus:

 

Spring: wood

Summer: fire

Longsummer and/or interstitial periods: earth/soil

Autumn: metal

Winter: water

 

Is spring made out of wood? Is winter made out of water? The questions themselves, if one thinks in terms of physical materials, are nonsensical. The ancients were not idiots. Clearly something else is indicated by the 五行.

 

Or again,

 

Childhood/adolescence: wood

Youth: fire

Prime: earth/soil

Decline: metal

Dying: water

 

Are babies made out of wood? Are old people made out of metal? Again, the ancients were not idiots.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Walker

[Stosh]

 

 

 

you mean reality?

Im not saying one has or should have a negative impression of life

I was saying that one must follow a vector of desires or biases to navigate

in reality

and now that it comes up,, I also figure reality not to have any particular

desire or role planned out for you , thats a thing you generate , or find

in that which has been pre-generated for you by our evil society.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Stosh

[Stosh]

Definitions 1, 2, and 3 all relate to what I am talking about.

 

The point of 五行 theory is not that your body is an amalgamation of wood, water, fire, soil, and metal.

 

That this is true can be most easily grasped if one remembers that, to the Chinese, five phase theory is applied to temporal patterns perhaps more than anything else. Thus:

 

Spring: wood

Summer: fire

Longsummer and/or interstitial periods: earth/soil

Autumn: metal

Winter: water

 

Is spring made out of wood? Is winter made out of water? The questions themselves, if one thinks in terms of physical materials, are nonsensical. The ancients were not idiots. Clearly something else is indicated by the 五行.

 

Or again,

 

Childhood/adolescence: wood

Youth: fire

Prime: earth/soil

Decline: metal

Dying: water

 

Are babies made out of wood? Are old people made out of metal? Again, the ancients were not idiots.

bear with me a moment till I get to your point ( I hope)

 

Well back then they had to explain how people made babies

without understanding reproduction as we do now ,

for instance.

And they had to explain why things dropped and people got tired etc

They came up with what they thought were intuitive solutions

and many find them still satisfying today.

But Scientific inquiry slowly marched on , building one mans findings

on top the last mans

( always fact checking for verification by the material world)

 

And two or three thousand years later

we know about reproduction and cellular biology.

we know ( as clearly as we know anything ) that there is no

special component to living things ,

the difference between living and inanimate is assemby.

Assembly is just re-arrangement of materials that already ARE.

So life itself is a potential that exists throughout the universe

but assembly is required.

Is a baby made of wood? Technically , they are.

but their is another tier of existance that babies have, and wood

probably, does not have.

Are old people made out of metal?

In part ,but it doesnt mean they have bigger lungs.

Cherrypicking the traits of elements to fit arbitrary situations

like old people getting smaller- is intuitive , and may be

satisfying ,, but we know that there is iron in red blood cells

and we can call iron a metal because of its traits and we know more

about the reliable appropriate applicability of elemental traits, having built

one mans findings upon the last, for thousands of years.

No the ancients were not idiots , they were brilliant in fact, but that doesnt mean

that everyone after them was either.

We just do see farther, standing on the shoulders of giants.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Stosh

[xor]

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Edited May 22, 2013 by Guest

[Apech]

Both systems are understood and spoken of in Chinese philosophy, medicine, cultivation, and so forth. In China the five phases are called the 五行 and the four elements are called the 四大.

 

The former refers to five states or phases of existence: growing/rising; expanding/flourishing; diminishing/falling; contracting/storing; and stable. It does not refer to literally to the materials of wood, fire, soil, metal, and water, even though those materials are used to represent these five states/phases.

 

The latter refers to the four fundamental constituents of the physical universe. The idea came to China alongside Buddhism and is considered an originally-Buddhist concept here.

 

When spoken of in China by those who understand this vocabulary there is no contradiction, because the two systems refer to different ideas. Therefore, in a single sentence one can refer to both systems without confusion nor need for reconciliation or melding, because the phases refer to phases and the elements refer to elements.

 

 

This post nails it.

[Stosh]

I don't consider the ideas as just a seed. There's much that was lost by taking aether/qi out of western science and the 1700s and after.

 

Here's something to ponder:

http://webapp1.dlib.indiana.edu/newton/

 

Even if the site takes a modern view on things, an interesting question is asked there: why was classical physics created by an alchemist and what does it mean for us?

Newton did a lot of things ,

as for alchemy vs chemistry , chemistry wasnt really described until 1787 by Lavoisier

I think newton had already died by 1727

 

A chemist is someone who studies chemicals. They are descended, philosophically from the mediaeval Alchemists who studied chemicals also however they were studying all things, not just chemicals in an attempt to discover the philosopher's stone. The alchemists were also very interested in the philosphical nature of things generally, as well as more esoteric knowlege about God and the Soul.

 

Simply put the Alchemist studied chemicals and performed experiments to understand himself and God, wheras the Chemist studies Chemicals in order to produce new compounds and understand nature.

 

That newton was interested in a god isnt surprising ,

Most everybody was at the time

and I see it as edifying ,that chemistry

went on to benefit our lives in so many ways while alchemy ,, hasnt grown .

The alchemists didnt find a philosophers stone , didnt come up with anything new about god

or souls and didnt come up with a way to change base into valuable metals.

 

In fact one can easily make the case that modern science chemistry is addressing those goals!

And they-it says that there is no god or souls as described , the philosophers stone is a hoax

and that metals are what they are because of immutable rules of the universe which cannot be

defied successfully.

[ChiDragon]

This is the trouble when two maps use the same terms to describe entirely different parts of the territory.

 

That is only the difference in the thinking of the minds. The same terms do not have the same meaning on the other parts of the territory. It the descriptive method is the same for the two maps, then why should they be treated differently due to stubbornness.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

In fact one can easily make the case that modern science chemistry is addressing those goals!

And they-it says that there is no god or souls as described , the philosophers stone is a hoax

and that metals are what they are because of immutable rules of the universe which cannot be

defied successfully.

 

 

If you had knowledge of a power that could both achieve immortality and hand in hand destroy the cosmos...

 

would you ever reveal it?

[xor]

A chemist is someone who studies chemicals. They are descended, philosophically from the mediaeval Alchemists who studied chemicals also however they were studying all things, not just chemicals in an attempt to discover the philosopher's stone. The alchemists were also very interested in the philosphical nature of things generally, as well as more esoteric knowlege about God and the Soul.

 

In short the alchemists were studying aether using chemical processes and finding it in minerals and plants to start with.

 

That newton was interested in a god isnt surprising ,

Most everybody was at the time

 

Yes but if you were interested in finding god you would either belong to the church, follow it's ways or risk being tortured or executed.

 

The alchemists didnt find a philosophers stone , didnt come up with anything new about god

or souls and didnt come up with a way to change base into valuable metals.

 

Depends on how you define the philosopher's stone.

 

In fact one can easily make the case that modern science chemistry is addressing those goals!

 

Not really. We looking from the point of reductionism and even if god exists we won't find it in a particle. I doubt even Higg's particle(aka God particle) can be thought of as proof.

 

And they-it says that there is no god or souls as described ,

 

The argument that god or soul doesn't exist can't be made from science since it can't be disproven. But yes it's an opinion that is very much common in universities ofcourse. Although when I was studying chemistry what surprised me was that there were believers in christian creationism in faculty that was only obvious from some people there hosting a creationism/intelligent design groupmeet. (I'm not into that so make of it what you will)

 

the philosophers stone is a hoax

and that metals are what they are because of immutable rules of the universe which cannot be defied successfully.

 

Actually you can routinely make gold and change metals these days and it's done in universities physics and radiochemistry labs. But ofcourse it isn't cost effective as of yet and the expensive equipment is probably not available to the public.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Guest

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Philosophical stone is the masonry of the cosmos.

[Stosh]

 

 

If you had knowledge of a power that could both achieve immortality and hand in hand destroy the cosmos...

 

would you ever reveal it?

To reveal it is to give the power to someone else,

so no I probably wouldnt

because I dont trust you to exercise the same restraint as I .

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

To reveal it is to give the power to someone else,

so no I probably wouldnt

because I dont trust you to exercise the same restraint as I .

 

The prerequisite to learning external alchemy and how to interact with philosophical stone is to develop internal alchemy and recognize and TAKE the responsibility that comes with that knowledge.

 

It is impossible to gain that level of powerful gnowing without first applying it to the self.

[Stosh]

Im not in much disagreement on point one

In short the alchemists were studying aether using chemical processes and finding it in minerals and plants to start with.

please do tell me something about the aether they reportedly found .

Yes but if you were interested in finding god you would either belong to the church, follow it's ways or risk being tortured or executed.

Believing in a god but having doubts isnt uncommon ,

and looking to find evidence either way wouldnt have been an odd thing to do for a man with his talents.

Depends on how you define the philosopher's stone.

The philosopher's stone (Latin: lapis philosophorum) is a legendary alchemical substance said to be capable of turning base metals (lead, for example) into gold (chrysopoeia) or silver. It was also sometimes believed to be an elixir of life,

Aside from reductionism and particles ,there is the fundamental fact

proven over and over a million times a day that the laws of the universe

arent whimsical on the scale that we experience it.,, The rules hold true for everyone everywhere always

and never ever vary , though we may learn new rules-laws as we delver further into subatomics.

So even if one could prove a god exists,

which you cant 'prove' absolutely conclusively either .. he-she-it would be irrelevant

since he-she-it isnt playing any active role.

( which 'would be' rather nice of him, because interfering would render the universe both unknowable ,and chaotic)

Actually you can routinely make gold and change metals these days and it's done in universities physics and radiochemistry labs. But ofcourse it isn't cost effective as of yet and the expensive equipment is probably not available to the public.

Yes I am aware of that , but its not done by waving another rock over it and chanting , so while true .. its not really what we are discussing here - philosopher stone lore.

Respectfully Stosh

Edited May 17, 2013 by Stosh

[Stosh]

 

The prerequisite to learning external alchemy and how to interact with philosophical stone is to develop internal alchemy and recognize and TAKE the responsibility that comes with that knowledge.

 

It is impossible to gain that level of powerful gnowing without first applying it to the self.

Is that going to be page one of the computer 'Element game' you are designing?

It could still use some feedback from the R+D department.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Stosh

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

the RPG is much more involved than jsut the elemental chart. the aim is to exemplify many of the hidden and forgotten truths and lifeways which have been systematically and genocidally wiped out, or at least forgotten, by the civilized paradigm.

It is in and of itself something of an irony.


To appeal to children, it is fixed in fantasy.
To appeal to adolescents, it expresses a sci-fi type explanation of every fantastic feat.
To appeal to the adults and elderly, it is meant to look and "feel" as real as a morning dump, to include AI exhibiting the civilized paradigm, as a contrast to players who experience the reality outside the paradigm... so as to allow the Adult players to remain in their "comfort zone" of civility if so desired...

To appeal to truth, every avatar (player character) will be organic and a composite of the whole; like the universe restructuring itself to follow our wills, so too will the program restructure itself to add and subtract new and old player characters.

To appeal to reincarnation, to appeal to the soul, player characters will* experience permanent deaths which garnish reincarnation bonuses to the (new/reincarnated) players' character(s).

To appeal to alchemy, the 20 element system will act as a calendar and a set of specialization skills with different abilities for different player classes. Each class house has a different schooling for each individual element; the Alchemist school of Forest is a completely different set of skills than the Mage school of Forest, than the Conjurer school of Forest.

"that" will only be "page one" for the alchemical class schools, specifically for players seeking philosophical stone... which is not an available class path until certain other prerequisites are met; the players wont even know the aspects of the game they do not actively seek. even in and of their own class or race.





Where's the R+D dept.?




* It is possible, though it might take a lot of doing, for players to experience "temporal immortality". or in other words, not face a final death or need for reincarnating. there will be no level caps, but the stats algorithm will be designed in such a way that players can inadvertantly "bind" themselves through unbalanced stats to level ratios and cause internal damage and ultimately a non-resurrection "final death", that leads to their reincarnation bonus and new character creation with the bonuses garnished from your previous life's levels.


For that matter, i also intend to have a world of spirits, where player characters who can be ressurrected will "go" when they die, and can return to their body - if they can find, 1 a way back to corporeal earth and 2, find their body. OR 3, having another player cast magic or perform medical service to revive you.

And last on that note, a "final death, no resurrection zone" where the only way to return to your current-life avatar is to be directly rescued by another player and returned to the spirit world.


Think hades and the river styx.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Northern Avid Judo Ant

[xor]

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Edited May 23, 2013 by Guest

[xor]

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Edited May 23, 2013 by Guest

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Sounds like something I wouldn't even trust myself with.

 

Earn your own trust via internal alchemy. putrefy and digest to purify your untrustworthy internal elements.

[ChiDragon]

I would answer, but it is not clear to me what you are asserting, or what you are asking.

 

We have started out with two systems. Without having a thorough understand of the systems, people start to equate the elements from one system to another with various assumptions. It that a wise thing to do....???

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

 

We have started out with two systems. Without having a thorough understand of the systems, people start to equate the elements from one system to another with various assumptions. It that a wise thing to do....???

 

 

Wisdom is the fool's destination.

[xor]

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Edited May 22, 2013 by Guest