Why are people so TERRIFIED by a decentralized economy?

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Yup, like gravity. IMO a good Taoist lives in harmony with the world around him. Whether its in a mountain cave or the city. If they/you don't like life where you are, go somewhere else. Or if you have a strategy for getting people to stop using currency then let us know what it is. As per usual you could mail the filthy lucre to me.

 

By the way I like the money system, barter is hugely inefficient. Striving for a better life man will specialize and one way or another currency will arise.

 

I live in a currencyless non commercial society a week out of the year. Its great, but its only possible because its for a limited time and driven by the wealth that people have collected working. Communes tend not to last for more then one or two generations. In Illinois, where I live, there were many attempts to build a Utopian towns, they didn't work. Hard core Kibbutzs that were bastions of pure communism either broke up or had to reform.

 

I think history and mankind's make up is against you, unless you go monastery, commune or primitive tribe. Which you can do, but probably won't.

 

 

I said say something reasonable, not "societal-self-proclaimed". "it is the way it is" is nature. Society is not presently nature.

 

My aim is to make right this grievous wrong.

 

 

 

 

Would it be better to continue this path and increase the human population geometrically and increase the suffering we experience exponentially?

 

 

Or should we quit while we're "as ahead as it gets"?

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

I don't think anyone's scared about what your thoughts on currency. It doesn't really matter, but it makes you look young and idealistic. Which is not necessarily bad but when you interface with the 'real' world, you'll need cur·ren·cy [kur-uhn-see, kuhr-] noun, plural cur·ren·cies 1. something that is used as a medium of exchange; money.

 

You can complain about it, philosophize about it, assume your thoughts are scaring other people, but the simple truth is, you'll need it, unless you head to a monastery or commune.

 

 

Cool, live the bear life, just don't complain about it.

Also "Why do you need compensation for building your own house? isnt the house the compensation for building it?" Unless its a simple hovel, you're gonna need lots of supplies and hardware.

 

Are you anywhere close to your ideal of living? Making your own clothes, growing your own food, knowledgeable enough to build a house out of scratch. Or are you talking theoretically.

 

 

Alright bear it, it is! just dont complain if i am eating human meat, murdering people for approaching me, or in general protecting my own freedom and life from civilized encroachment.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

The current 1% domination was not supposed to happen in our capitalist system. People had hopes: there was the middle class, political checks and balances, industries were supposed to see how going green and giving to the community would be win-win. International free trade was supposed to be win-win (not just pitting countries and workers in downward wage pressure). When I went through university this was textbook stuff. This was not so long ago. Most people don't understand how things have gong wrong. Mostly they are arguing about possible systems, when the real change is in the meme. Memes are like thought viruses that propagate when the society is ready. As 1/7000000000 of humanity, I can participate on thought and energy level. I have strong energy.

 

 

That's the thing! That's just it! The memes ARE changing! WE THE PEOPLE are waking the fuck up.

 

I'm just bitching at those who are still sleeping.

 

MARBLEHEAD, THELERNER, AND STOSH come to mind as waking up, but not awakened.

 

 

Actually, scratch that, i think marbles and lern are just going BACK to sleep

Edited May 15, 2013 by Northern Avid Judo Ant

[de_paradise]

Part of the problem is that most people don't participate in the economy as anything other than labour.

 

When you invest money, then the value of the business you create belongs to you. When you work as an employee, you create value for the business owner.

 

If more people were willing to take risks, they'd be creating value for themselves, not others. The 1% are those who have taken that risk time and time again (and won)...

In an ecosystem that contains billionaire 1% (termed "plutocracy"), only a few people GET to be bosses. Just as when the store of the family of the deceased Sam Walton rolls into town, mom and pops and their supply chains get wiped out, less people in business for themselves. So here I'll revise: an economy is an ecosystem of people; the current corporate owners of Walmart are not risk-takers in the ideal sense that one would have it, and in fact destroy entrepreneurs.

 

My main message was not about pie-sharing, and its may facets. Its how memes underpin how we act, and the meme that we are likely to change to, will de-emphasize greed and money. Intertwined in the meme and social evolution is energy and spirit. This is what interest me.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

My investment has always been and will always be the spirit of truth.
If i didnt know any better (which i dont) i'd say i was the embodiment of the spirit of truth.



P.S.
IF:
We are in a computer simulation run by our descendants
THEN:
They are facing severe crises that WE CAUSED and need to look to US for solutions.
SO:
STOP WASTING YOUR LIVES WORKING FOR SLAVE-INCENTIVES!




when will people learn that business is the bane of family?

Edited May 15, 2013 by Northern Avid Judo Ant

[Mikeb85]

 

In an ecosystem that contains billionaire 1% (termed "plutocracy"), only a few people GET to be bosses. Just as when the store of the family of the deceased Sam Walton rolls into town, mom and pops and their supply chains get wiped out, less people in business for themselves. So here I'll revise: an economy is an ecosystem of people; the current corporate owners of Walmart are not risk-takers in the ideal sense that one would have it, and in fact destroy entrepreneurs.

 

My main message was not about pie-sharing, and its may facets. Its how memes underpin how we act, and the meme that we are likely to change to, will de-emphasize greed and money. Intertwined in the meme and social evolution is energy and spirit. This is what interest me.

 

The situation works in reverse too. In the city I live in, you can see many former McDonald's and Pizza Hut restaurants that are now independently owned, unique restaurants.

 

Wal-Mart is no doubt big, but they're not steam rolling mom and pop establishments - they're just steam rolling less efficient big-box stores, and will one day get replaced themselves... Mom and pop establishments are thriving here, especially in immigrant communities - you go to an 'immigrant neighborhood' up here and you won't find any franchises or big box stores - just alot of entrepreneurs.

 

Right now is a great time to be an entrepreneur, especially in Canada where our economy is finally faltering a bit - when prices are low, stores going out of business, etc..., is the best time to invest and start a business.

[joeblast]

even the topic of this thread betrays misunderstandings. people want to bring up star trek but then omit the big key - unlimited free energy! since we're not even close to that, we will continue to toil for our energy needs.

 

even with unlimited free energy, you still need a whole bunch of people to design, procure materials, build a house.

 

if the governments did not have the ability to fake their financial records and borrow unlimited and put it all on the taxpayer's tab, much of the malinvestment that has taken place would be in the pockets of those who produced the value to begin with, instead of the government taking as much as possible without instigating a revolution and then giving various tax exempt statuses to large businesses.

 

wal mart is a good example because those SOBs come into places and negotiate tax preferences with the localities for 10-15 years, and by the time its up and some normal tax range comes into play for them, they can declare the building is old, its time to move on to another locality if they so choose. mom and pop dont get that sort of favorable treatment.

 

bottom line, governments were set up to ensure fair and equal treatment amongst the players - and instead of upholding that, they have become part of the corruption themselves and enabled the situations so that they have become as bad as they are today.

 

so like my town that has rules against them spending X amount on something - well they wanted to spend X doubled on school upgrades, new football field sodding, etc - so they basically made it all into a bunch of requests, all below the threshold of question, and made it all happen, entirely skipping the checks and balances that were set up to prevent exactly that sort of mismanagement - oh, did I mention the businesses doing these jobs were well connected with the people running the town?

 

extrapolate on up and past the federal government level.

 

"regulatory capture" - the foxes bought off whomever was watching the henhouse - be mad at the foxes all you want, but were the guard interested in doing his job, we'd have plenty more hens laying eggs instead of just a couple that we're trying to kahn into laying more.

 

 

so what's this got to do with money - outside of our congress having abdicated their responsibility and given the creation of money and charging interest on top of it just for the service - thus giving themselves the ability to borrow with aplomb and then have the CBO score whatever certain line items they feel like scoring - so like that surplus they predicted based on 2008 scoring went from a hundreds of millions of surplus to a trillion and a half in the hold in just a single year.

 

end the fed, end the ability for government to borrow past their means, prosecute the fraud.

 

then this matter of currency will resolve itself.

Edited May 15, 2013 by joeblast

[thelerner]

never mind.

Edited May 15, 2013 by thelerner

[skydog]

http://www.esquire.com/features/young-people-in-the-recession-0412

 

young people are 47 times less well off than older people

 

people like to justify this from their lens of rich but step into the shoes of being young

 

your either unemployed

 

a student getting into debt

 

or a corporate little bitch slave

 

(or found another way)

 

fuck this

[konchog uma]

In the sense that the american federal reserve is about as federal as FedEx, we already kind of have a "decentralized economy". It certainly isn't centered in america.

 

@drew: putting your energy into people by "flexing your pineal gland" (there are actually no muscles or connective tissue attached to the pineal gland) is creepy. I hope you either stop talking about that, stop doing it, or both. Lets not derail this thread with talk of affecting other people against their will. If you have anything interesting to say to me PM me.

 

@judo wolf: money is neutral, just a tool, that people can do a lot of good with too. The problem isn't fiat currency, its human nature. I know people who have done really good things with their money.

[voidisyinyang]

O.K. I visited the most traditional Berber village in Morocco in 1997 -- the women made all their own clothes. They composted their humanure and then grew all their own food - vegetables and wheat. The houses were made out of mud adobe, built on top of each other. Wild sheep in the mountains were herded and glacier water was irrigated down by rock channels.

 

So then I saw this doc on the mother goddess origins and the lady visited a town archaeological dig from 7000 BCE - and it was the SAME as the village I visited.

 

Oh yeah this village hung "stink bombs" in black pails outside their houses to scare off evil spirits. haha.

 

So yeah living without money is definitely possible.

 

Gold and silver used to be Solar and Lunar energy but if you read Jack Weatherford's MONEY book - he talks about how the Greeks around 400 BC then printed coins based on the 10-based units.

 

So money is enforced by the military - that's what gives money its value. China was the first to use paper money and enforced it by the military. Same with Greeks, Romans, etc.

 

Of course back then a lot of "money" was based on trading goods directly. Venezuela was even doing direct trading of goods recently with Chavez.

 

I went to Venezuela in 1998 and I talked to bare-footed peasants living in a hut -they have never voted before but they said they were going to vote for Chavez.

 

So yeah 3 billion people live on less than $2 a day.

 

I spent 10 years living without a car - just biking even through Minnesota winters which is half the year - and then for food I dumpster dived for most of my food.

 

So that way my money was kept to a minimum. I still had enough to buy books but then I sold them to used bookstores and then bought used books.

 

So money using the 10-based number system is based on a logarithmic math that inherently skews wealth towards the rich.

 

So the technology of extraction of wealth is technology based on logarithmic geometry which then uses logarithmic-based "investment" money to justify wealth growing geometrically.

 

But so this system spread worldwide but resources on Earth are finite and so geometric or logarithmic growth of money based on geometric logarithmic extraction of resources obviously will soon come to its end.

Edited May 15, 2013 by pythagoreanfulllotus

[hydrogen]

@drew: putting your energy into people by "flexing your pineal gland" (there are actually no muscles or connective tissue attached to the pineal gland) is creepy. I hope you either stop talking about that, stop doing it, or both.

 

I don't know. If one stops talking what's in his mind honestly, then I don't have indicator to gauge the information presented by him.

 

I like honesty in this case. You may know drew for a while. The new comers should have chance to know drew themselves.

Edited May 15, 2013 by hydrogen

[voidisyinyang]

Yes Money is MONISM - it's the patriarchal repression of tantric free love energy.

 

Robin Dunbar -- his book Grooming, Gossip and the Evolution of Language is just so awesome
(1998). Dunbar cites the studies showing the transcultural evidence that given the choice: money
or sex, women choose the first. Money.

 

The ultimate “commodity fetish” is money as “filthy lucre” – in other words Western
civilization is based on repressed shit. Nonwestern cultures recycle shit as humanure to create
sustainable organic farming for thousands and thousands of years. Doug Henwood, the
structuralist economist, addresses this commodity fetish of money as shit very well:

 

 

By classical psychoanalysis money is gold, and gold is transformed shit, and
exchange relations, sublimated rituals of the anus. …And the infantile roots of
thrift are perhaps most interesting of all. Freud notes the rich associations
between money and dirt found in folklore and everyday language….The
accumulation of money is a sublimated urge to retain feces for the very pleasure
of it, and the production of commodities is the psychic derivative of the expulsion
of feces….The psychological equivalence of dirt and money is suggested by the
low social status of bankers in premodern times….(Modern usage confirms the
link of debt with both sadomasochism and the sacred: “bonds” impose conditions
known as “covenants” on debitors.)520

 

Doug Henwood: Wall Street: How It Works and for Whom (Verso, ), pp. 226-7.

 

Of course civilization is based on the dopamine sex energy addiction – from alcohol, nicotine,
salt, caffeine, sugar and even grains (with their high sugar and opiate levels). The issue here is
the electromagnetic mind-heart energy is still stuck in the lower chakras so it is repressed and
then the electromagnetic energy is subconsciously projected onto objects as an oppressive
expression of this repressed lower chakra extra electromagnetic force. Since it (the
electromagnetic consciousness) is stuck in the lower chakras then it is projected as sexual
attraction or as fear or as anger or worry – the lower emotions. This “commodity fetish”
projection is in contrast to the natural emotion of blissful peaceful love from the electromagnetic
brain-heart bliss of real consciousness (the electromagnetic powers of the third eye pineal gland).

 

So you can see Taoist Michael Winn confirming this about the

 

Monism Money culture of Gold Fire energy:

 

 

Hariharananda’s top-heavy, male-fire crown chakra consciousness seemed to
regularly attract yogic successors-to-be who would act out his suppressed lower
desires, involving themselves in money scandals and love affairs that invariably
resulted in their dismissal. When I last saw him in 1999, he was having severe
back pain. I read his pulses using Chinese diagnostic methods, and observed a
kidney deficiency, a weakness in his water element. This was likely due to his
Fire methods his entire life. The thing that seemed to help his back pain was
having teams of young female devotes massage his body, reminding me of the
celibate Mahatma Ghandi sleeping beside two young teen girls to rejuvenate
himself. The sexual energy Baba denied himself his entire life he could only
allow himself to receive indirectly through female touch.570

 

570 Michael Winn, “The Quest for Spiritual Orgasm: Daoist and Tantric Sexual Cultivation in the West,”
Universal Healing Tao, 2002

Edited May 15, 2013 by pythagoreanfulllotus

[Maddie]

Ah the human realm of Samsara.... nuff said

[Vmarco]

Ah the human realm of Samsara.... nuff said

 

Ah,...so true,...however, samsara is only one side of the coin of perceived life,...the other is nirvana. What would the human realm of nirvana look like? Then work your way back from there.

[Jetsun]

Since it (the electromagnetic consciousness) is stuck in the lower chakras

 

Yeah, so the whole deal comes back to cultivation to advances in consciousness to the higher chakras to reform the fundamentals of society. The problem is that nobody sees this as being the problem, as Gurdjieff pointed out we all have a blockage on the lower part of our spine (called various things ie ego/kundabuffer) which makes us see everything upside down or back to front so nobody can see where the problem is and usually does the opposite of what is required to move above it, and it also blocks the energy from raising higher than the lower two centres.

 

What is required is conscious labour/cultivation at the point of energy between Mi and Fa on the octaves or between chakras 2 and 3 to rise the energy above the survival and sex centres so you have reached a point of "I AM" in yourself more centred in the abdomen or higher centres, rather than running around in a state of constant survival anxiety hoarding money and other things out of insecurity. The problem is that the ego/kundabuffer tricks people into thinking that they already have a stable coherent sense of self when in reality they actually don't they are always changing and inconsistent, so nobody looks to find a solution to something they think is already resolved and nobody likes to face the truth that they are just rolling around in shit so nobody even looks to get to the "I am" level of consciousness.

 

What Gurdjieff tried to achieve with his life was to try to raise humanity as a whole above this level, he lived through two world wars and collapses of civilizations and knew that without getting the energy of humanity above its blockage in the spine to a higher level all attempts to solve major problems like inequality and war will fail, as it is very difficult to resolve a problem from the same level of consciousness which created it. So he tried to set up schools and groups in every major city on the planet to try to get the energy of the planet up as then all things like the monetary system would follow on from that advance, unfortunately I think that he mostly failed in that ultimate aim if it was ever possible, at least he tried.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Jetsun

[三江源]

@drew: putting your energy into people by "flexing your pineal gland" (there are actually no muscles or connective tissue attached to the pineal gland) is creepy. I hope you either stop talking about that, stop doing it, or both. Lets not derail this thread with talk of affecting other people against their will. If you have anything interesting to say to me PM me.

No, it isnt creepy. Not inherently and not universally perceived as such. YOU respond to it that way.. YOU get creeped by something, you personally. How about owning your own feelings as your own, instead of generalising them as if they were an axiomatic truth. I hope you stop pointing the generalising critical finger at people who dont meet your very personal and individual standards of what you find personally comfortable.

[zanshin]

My investment has always been and will always be the spirit of truth.

If i didnt know any better (which i dont) i'd say i was the embodiment of the spirit of truth.

 

 

 

P.S.

IF:

We are in a computer simulation run by our descendants

THEN:

They are facing severe crises that WE CAUSED and need to look to US for solutions.

SO:

STOP WASTING YOUR LIVES WORKING FOR SLAVE-INCENTIVES!

 

 

 

 

when will people learn that business is the bane of family?

All the going to work (expectation at least 40 hr/week) and making money and spending money on stupid stuff doesn't imply we're in a computer simulation, that is too high tech for what it really is. It is just a hamster wheel. So many of the things people do at work to make money truly are busy work and then they end up with no leisure time and life is no fun.

[zanshin]

I want to understand the logistics of how you, as a young person, are going to do it. I think Marblehead, Lerner and I worked in the system when we were younger to back off and live simpler with more leisure time now. I admire your idealism, but from practical standpoint seems like might need some resources- place to live, clothes, supplies. What's your short term and long term goals and plan?

Edited May 15, 2013 by zanshin

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

All the going to work (expectation at least 40 hr/week) and making money and spending money on stupid stuff doesn't imply we're in a computer simulation, that is too high tech for what it really is. It is just a hamster wheel. So many of the things people do at work to make money truly are busy work and then they end up with no leisure time and life is no fun.

 

you didnt think about it long enough or hard enough to understand the implications of what our descendants face, caused by OUR economics.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

I want to understand the logistics of how you, as a young person, are going to do it. I think Marblehead, Lerner and I worked in the system when we were younger to back off and live simpler with more leisure time now. I admire your idealism, but from practical standpoint seems like might need some resources- place to live, clothes, supplies. What's your short term and long term goals and plan?

 

 

Im GOING TO DO IT. weather i have to bite a cop in the face or shoot a politician in the brain. er.. head.

 

Thing about you lern and marbles is you didnt realize all these things as young as i did, did you?

 

13 years old is pretty young to realize that you're royally fucked.

 

Im not willing to work in the system, im not willing to work for the system. im not willing to USE the system. i am not even willing to acknowledge the system, but i do have to - in order to find MY Tribe. MY Community. MY Clan. MY Family.

Not America, not a bank, not a corporation, no businesses, no media.

 

Ideally, i would kidnap everyone on TTB and run wild into the middle of nowhere and start from ground Zer0 with only the natural resources of whatever land we settled.

 

 

But i am alone, no support, and no companionship.

 

So ultimately, you have no interest in what im going to do from here on out.

and if you do, that's not my concern, cuz you're not participating.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Jetsun pointed out the insecurity people feel in the absence of resource/money. i dont feel that. i feel insecure by capitalization and people who are insecure.

 

 

P.S. i want to express my appreciation and gratitude for the responses to this thread. I had a more narrow perception of what i had hoped to gain from posting the question... but what everyone has contributed simply blows my question out of the water.

Especially what Drew has brought to the table!
With his experiences in life and everything, he's not only been on both sides of the spectrum but had his hands in them at one point or another!

I have fought for resolution in this subject since i was between 7 and 13 years old, specifically since i was 13.

For the last 14, almost 15 years, i have struggled with my mind and my peers to resolve the existence of business and corporate dominant "life" ways. i cannot even call american living a way of life. it is a way of death.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Northern Avid Judo Ant

[zanshin]

Sorry sort of academically interested in your plan, didn't mean to sound snotty, so good luck ( not being sarcastic).

 

Can you survive in the middle of nowhere? It does take skills, unless you're going to a tropical island where fish jump out the sea and fruit falls into your lap for you. I have idea to get more away from society to get away from society, not to bring my own civilization to take care of me.

 

Do you have descendants? If you did would your plan change?

Edited May 15, 2013 by zanshin

[Mikeb85]

 

 

Im GOING TO DO IT. weather i have to bite a cop in the face or shoot a politician in the brain. er.. head.

 

Thing about you lern and marbles is you didnt realize all these things as young as i did, did you?

 

13 years old is pretty young to realize that you're royally fucked.

 

Im not willing to work in the system, im not willing to work for the system. im not willing to USE the system. i am not even willing to acknowledge the system, but i do have to - in order to find MY Tribe. MY Community. MY Clan. MY Family.

Not America, not a bank, not a corporation, no businesses, no media.

 

Ideally, i would kidnap everyone on TTB and run wild into the middle of nowhere and start from ground Zer0 with only the natural resources of whatever land we settled.

 

 

But i am alone, no support, and no companionship.

 

So ultimately, you have no interest in what im going to do from here on out.

and if you do, that's not my concern, cuz you're not participating.

 

Go travel somewhere, and live in a monastery for half a year or a year. Or even better, a hermitage.

 

I know plenty of people who have lived as hermits and monastics. It's not impossible, in fact, it's incredibly common in some places... I know of quite a few hermitages in Canada and the US.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Mikeb85

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

knowledge is power.

im winging it, we'll see. maybe that's where i'll wind up, i cannot know.