The Soul Vs Immortal

[eye_of_the_storm]

What is the difference?

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

fusion.

[Maddie]

I'm not sure what the question is?

[eye_of_the_storm]

Well Taoism aims to be Immortal?

In the West we ...some say we already are Immortal (Immortal Soul)

So really it is just about remembering who you are at the deepest / core level.

Rather than having to build yang spirits? etc.

[Maddie]

Well Taoism aims to be Immortal?

 

In the West we ...some say we already are Immortal (Immortal Soul)

 

So really it is just about remembering who you are at the deepest / core level.

 

Rather than having to build yang spirits? etc.

 

 

 

 

Hmmm well I can't say with 100% certainty as I'm less familiar with Taoist theory than Buddhist but if I understand correctly then I think becoming an Immortal in Taoism is similar to becoming a Buddha in Buddhism; meaning that you eliminate desires and escape the cycle of birth and rebirth.

 

Both I believe understand the consciousness to be "immortal" as in it continues to exist after death like the west does, but becoming an Immortal or a Buddha means that you escape the cycle or Samsara.

[Seth Ananda]

In some of the teachings of the west, there are two kinds of Immortality.

 

One is the kind everyone has ~ continuity of spirit, where the spirit separates from the soul {the part that has memory and personality} some time after death and continues its journey of transmigration through countless lives...

 

Then there is the immortality of the Adept. Only attained by very few, it is where the soul and spirit fuse or marry through correct application of the inner teachings. It forms a new kind of being. One that does not slowly break up into its various components after death, but maintains its 'Identity' and memories and learning's, and can choose where it goes next, and gets there intact.

[ChiDragon]

Taoists believe in "immortal". An immortal goes to heaven.

Buddhists believe in "soul". A soul stays on earth as being a ghost. A ghost is a soul of a dead body which caused by an accident or murdered. However, the soul will stay with the body if it was by natural death.

[RongzomFan]

Buddhists believe in "soul".

 

 

In Buddhism, sentient beings are bundles of 5 aggregates (skandha). This is basic Buddhism 101.

[RongzomFan]

What about physical immortality? Living in the body for thousands of years?

 

http://www.khecari.com/styled/index.html

[Maddie]

Yea Buddhists don't believe in a soul as in a permanent self.

 

As far as physical immortality I've heard various claims from Taoists. Some say immortality is not physical, some say it is. Personally though I'd think if physical immortality was real then we would have heard of some actual examples.

[h.uriahr]

There's a piece of God in all of us. Connect to it and go home or die and come back.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

The spirit is omniversal and singular, shared and connected to all of us.

The soul is an immaterial subtle body which houses our individuality and personhood and is an unique "fragment"-copy of the all-spirit. it has no beginnings except as from the spirit and has no ending except to return.

The body is a temporal vessel of the myriad materials and energies woven into a single unit and breathed into it a soul.

Immortality is the nature of the spirit and soul.

Mortality is the nature of the individual/mind/opinions/self and the body.


To achieve an immortal body, Fuse your Soul with your myriad energies and materials. If you get bored of living forever, you can always melt away from your body and leave uninhibited.

[林愛偉]

Taoists believe in "immortal". An immortal goes to heaven.

 

Buddhists believe in "soul". A soul stays on earth as being a ghost. A ghost is a soul of a dead body which caused by an accident or murdered. However, the soul will stay with the body if it was by natural death.

 

 

 

Not at all. Its not that Buddhists don't believe in a soul, its that they realize that soul, spirit, etc..are states, not the original nature.

 

Daoists don't believe in immortality, they realize that it is a metaphorical term used for pointing to the original nature. They may attain the immortal state through cultivation of energy, but it doesn't truly become permanent till the mind is purified and discriminating thinking is put to an end.

[Formless Tao]

In some of the teachings of the west, there are two kinds of Immortality.

 

One is the kind everyone has ~ continuity of spirit, where the spirit separates from the soul {the part that has memory and personality} some time after death and continues its journey of transmigration through countless lives...

 

Then there is the immortality of the Adept. Only attained by very few, it is where the soul and spirit fuse or marry through correct application of the inner teachings. It forms a new kind of being. One that does not slowly break up into its various components after death, but maintains its 'Identity' and memories and learning's, and can choose where it goes next, and gets there intact.

 

Hi Seth Ananda and others.

 

Is there a difference in your opinion between spirit and soul.

[Formless Tao]

If so what is the difference between the spirit and soul?

 

If after we die and our (spirit/soul) returns into another being (samsara) will it always come back in the same gender? or is it able to switch genders on rebirth?

 

Thanks ahead

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Soul is without gender, an "extension"/copy of the all-spirit which is omniversally shared by all- energy, mineral, vapor, vegetable, or animal.

The soul will reincarnate endlessly, or until all of life's lessons have been embraced and the soul no longer receives "anything new" from experience(s).

The soul typically retains various "memes" from previous life experiences, and can often retain entire gender roles, "embedded" into their intrinsic nature - which usually leads to more life lessons

And some of us are known by native american tribes as "two souls", as either having one of each gender, or a soul with the opposite gender's paradigm. We're considered "sacred" in much of the world's natural communities.




In short, the soul is almost exactly like the body, except immaterial and essentially eternal - until we reunite with the spiritual source.

[zerostao]

edit

Edited May 16, 2013 by zerostao

[Seth Ananda]

Hi Seth Ananda and others.

 

Is there a difference in your opinion between spirit and soul.

Its tricky because in words, soul and spirit were the old duality making up who we are, untill the church decreed that they were really the same thing. So now when some people say soul, they are referring to spirit, or to the divine spark, or to soul in an old school context.

When they say spirit, they are usually referring to the divine spark not just aware cognizance...

 

In western alchemy, the spirit is like the elements of fire and air. It wants to lift off and float away. It is cognitive and momentarily aware, but only really 'half' a person. It is the part of us that reincarnates over and over again, with no memory of who it was before...

 

The soul on the other hand was like the elements of earth and water. It's heavy, and can get bogged down with all those feelings and memories...

You see remnants of this understanding in expressions like "that music {or person} has Soul!" ~ ie Feeling.

 

The soul is most 'visable' through the body and viscera. The state of a persons soul is generally discernible by looking at their body. For instance a lack of confidence would have specific postural indicators, with out mentioning any more subtle reading techniques...

 

The spirit on the other hand is comfortable staying up in the head, away from the nasty or heavy soul feelings, and the division can be seen readily in many people, between their head and the rest of their body. But who can blame the spirit? It hates suffering and loves pleasure.

 

this is {or part of} the alchemical inner work. To heal the negative emotions to make the soul more comfortable for the spirit. To teach the spirit not to wander away into fantasy and distraction {being off in ones head} away from the body and the feelings of the soul.

To practice morality which protects the soul from further negative emotions, and to cultivate virtue energies which feel amazing and thus attract the spirit.

 

Most of the transformations of soul cant be done without spirit being present.

 

Eventually the soul and spirit want to live with each other. This is when the first marriage or fusion can occur. this also means that separation wont happen after death, as the spirit is no longer trying to escape the soul.

 

That means one has become very embodied, and smooth. These beings feel very different to a normal person. they still have problems and obstacles but the process them in a unique way

 

 

One break down I have seen is like this:

 

First marriage/fusion: Soul and Spirit. The two known halves of 'who you actually are, here on earth, join.

 

Second marriage/fusion: The new person merges with their divine spark/higher self/... They now merge with the deeper intelligence.

 

Third marriage/fusion: The triad Soul/Spirit/Spark merge with the whole.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Seth Ananda

[Maddie]

According to Taoist thought the only part of us to survive death is our etheral soul (hun) that resides in the liver. One of my text books described it as the flame at the tip of a cigarette, and the spirit (shen) as the smoke that arose from the flame. The tobacco was the jing and the ash was the po or the corporeal soul.

 

So when we die its like the last stub of the cigarette is used to light a new cigarette thus the hun soul is passed from the old cigarette (body) to the new cigarette (body). The Po soul dies,(ashes go to the ground) and a new spirit (shen) arises from the flame of the hun soul.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Thank you, very much, Seth... <3 that was more eloquent than i can muster....

dmattwads!!! That makes the best analogy i've heard in the matter for a long time! It's also a key point for "healthy smoking" if you consider it deeply enough

Edited May 17, 2013 by Northern Avid Judo Ant

[Seth Ananda]

According to Taoist thought the only part of us to survive death is our etheral soul (hun) that resides in the liver. One of my text books described it as the flame at the tip of a cigarette, and the spirit (shen) as the smoke that arose from the flame. The tobacco was the jing and the ash was the po or the corporeal soul.

 

So when we die its like the last stub of the cigarette is used to light a new cigarette thus the hun soul is passed from the old cigarette (body) to the new cigarette (body). The Po soul dies,(ashes go to the ground) and a new spirit (shen) arises from the flame of the hun soul.

i have seen texts describe both the hun and po as being capable of surviving death, or that the po slowly breaks down over time after death.

 

But in terms of the way the words 'soul and spirit' are used, at least in western Alchemy, the Po is the soul, and hun is the spirit.

 

The po or soul can become a wandering ghost, when separated from the spirit or hun, which just flies off to next life.

 

Alchemy is learning how to fuse these two elements to enable a conscious survival of the death process, or the dissolution that happens some time after death.

[Maddie]

i have seen texts describe both the hun and po as being capable of surviving death, or that the po slowly breaks down over time after death.

 

But in terms of the way the words 'soul and spirit' are used, at least in western Alchemy, the Po is the soul, and hun is the spirit.

 

The po or soul can become a wandering ghost, when separated from the spirit or hun, which just flies off to next life.

 

Alchemy is learning how to fuse these two elements to enable a conscious survival of the death process, or the dissolution that happens some time after death.

 

Hmmm that's a different version than I heard but it is interesting to ponder in that it supposes the possibility of someone having already been reborn while another part of them remains to be a ghost. interesting.

[eye_of_the_storm]

Ive heard these ghost forms eventually break down in the astral? being residual consciousness / imprint..but not the real thing.


Just as the physical body breaks down into the earth.

generally ...

Edited May 17, 2013 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

broken down and digested as thought, emotion, unresolved conflict, etc. etc. etc.


Shunning the ghosts like civilized people are expected to only hurts ourselves and our ancestors.

[eye_of_the_storm]

I see ghosts and ancestors as different things