How come all the video, online, forums, books, etc. learning?

[BaguaKicksAss]

I mean for martial arts, Taoist practice, Taoist related magic, qigong, and related. I'm curious why everyone goes for the various not in person sources? Is it due to difficulty finding a teacher? Or perhaps a teacher folks actually like? Or are the vids/books of higher quality than local teachers?

 

Personally I am fortunate that there are many skilled teachers in my area. Also traveling for quality teaching has never scared me off. Actually when it comes down to it, I would actually move for top quality teaching, as the above topics are quite important to me (and some of them have been part of my life for quite some time).

 

I see many questions and answers, an often wonder "how come they don't ask their teacher"? Or I see a video and wonder if they conflict with people's present paths/teachings or not. Of course I ask questions as well sometimes, my reasoning being that I get curious and don't want to pester my teacher too often .

 

I figure it isn't usually about money, since many teach for free, or $5.

 

Anyways, I've gotten quite curious. As you can likely guess, I highly recommend in person training if you can find it!

[BaguaKicksAss]

I also asked a friend this, who is a Bagua teacher. He told me I was lucky to even find a teacher of the martial art I chose; he was the only one in his entire state for quite some time! Here, we have 20 teachers just for Bagua, yes 20, in one large city. We are very fortunate here.

 

I tried learning a form from a book and video as a challenge to myself once. I don't want to admit how many corrections my teacher had to give (for the exact same form) from that experiment LOL. I think those who learn this way are extremely dedicated, it is much more difficult in some ways . Though I think you would have to take video of yourself to give self corrections.

[ChiForce]

This is an inherent problem with our world. Our world is often short of teachers or qualified spiritual teachers. "Potential apprentices" are often having to find their paths themselves. I am considered as one and lucky enough the natural process of cultivation has gotten me this far to realize I would need additional help. Others hear about it but don't have the natural gift. They know no known teachers or living in the wrong countries. All they have are books and videos about the new age stuff. And the internet.

[zerostao]

depends, i do have an online/video bagua teacher, and i know bagua teachers locally. of course i try and benefit however i can find it. the video instructor does review and make corrections when you supply him with video. books i think can lead to a deeper understanding, once you have the experience to understand. an advantage to the video, is that it is always ready when you are. if i feel like looking over a form a 4 am, it doesnt mind being played. when i began my bagua journey just over 4 years ago, i began with local teachers and video teacher at the same time. having more than one teacher can also have drawbacks.

initially i had the snake step down great, until a local teacher told me that i should never step like that. and then a year later he said, it was higher level.

i was a somewhat seasoned m.a. b4 i began the bagua, and i had tai chi experience, so, in a way i already knew the style i was after. and i follow a path that feels right to me, regardless of others opinions.

i do enjoy watching a wide variety of IMA and see so much beauty, depth, wisdom contained somewhere in all of them.

you are lucky to have found baguazhang in this lifetime. you are also lucky to have found ttb ; )

there are on this forum wonderful bagua players who never post as such and remain annyonomous, occasionally one might receive a pm that shares great knowledge.

[Friend]

Edited August 17, 2013 by Friend

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

I mean for martial arts, Taoist practice, Taoist related magic, qigong, and related. I'm curious why everyone goes for the various not in person sources? Is it due to difficulty finding a teacher? Or perhaps a teacher folks actually like? Or are the vids/books of higher quality than local teachers?

 

Personally I am fortunate that there are many skilled teachers in my area. Also traveling for quality teaching has never scared me off. Actually when it comes down to it, I would actually move for top quality teaching, as the above topics are quite important to me (and some of them have been part of my life for quite some time).

 

I see many questions and answers, an often wonder "how come they don't ask their teacher"? Or I see a video and wonder if they conflict with people's present paths/teachings or not. Of course I ask questions as well sometimes, my reasoning being that I get curious and don't want to pester my teacher too often .

 

I figure it isn't usually about money, since many teach for free, or $5.

 

Anyways, I've gotten quite curious. As you can likely guess, I highly recommend in person training if you can find it!

 

 

Why? do you know someone who can teach me, a person who has no money or resources? i could sell all my nintendo stuff, but that isnt gonna make much more than maybe $200 if im LUCKY, lucky. That isnt enough to last long though, and i really was banking on having kids to inherit my games

Edited May 20, 2013 by Northern Avid Judo Ant

[xor]

I mean for martial arts, Taoist practice, Taoist related magic, qigong, and related. I'm curious why everyone goes for the various not in person sources? Is it due to difficulty finding a teacher? Or perhaps a teacher folks actually like? Or are the vids/books of higher quality than local teachers?

 

The taoist and related scene seems pretty dead in my area and I'm not that free to travel. There are some things I can learn but an IMA doesn't seem to be one of them.

 

To give an idea of what I've found locally... there is "taoist taiji"(I know this will make shanlung cringe if he reads this!) that promises to teach the real yang family style as taught by Yang Luchan. Bagua is taught as an irregular sidedish in a karate curriculum. There's also around ½ hours a week under a chinese teacher course in bagua available... none of these sound good to me.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Guest

[i am]

I have a friend who teaches bagua and taiji. But the master he learns from is in Texas (we are not). He's pretty much decided to stop teaching bagua, because he just can't get serious students. One guy isn't enough

 

So he'll teach me some stuff here and there, but he has a full time job and family. Just not worth his time. There is one other teacher in the state. Same lineage, different town. Those are my options...or get what I can out of books.

 

So my experience is that teachers are not available.

 

But in some ways, the amount of books out there is due to them tagging on to the self-help new-age craze. Sifting through to find the true teachings is a hard thing for people like me...

 

 

 

 

I'm almost to the point where I'd move to live near a teacher who resonated with me.

Edited May 20, 2013 by i am

[Sloppy Zhang]

In some cases, a book or a DVD is better quality instruction than you would get from a live teacher!

 

If you have a teacher who knows the movements but not the internal principles, aren't you pretty much just following along anyway? Even if he corrects you here and there, wouldn't he just be correcting your external form to make it look like his? He would not be able to see the internal processes, or be able to make adjustments that are necessary for your current development.

 

There is this assumption out there that "any in person training is better than anything else," and that's just not true. Not all teachers are created (made?) equal.

 

Now compare that to learning from a book or DVD of a master. Yes, for the most part you are following along (same as you would a live teacher who does not have the full authentic tradition). But on top of that, you also get the details of how each part of the form/set/routine is supposed to work.

 

Even if that's all you ever did, you'd learn more from one book than from a year of an in person teacher who didn't know what they were doing.

 

Now let's say that you travel and visit teachers in the meantime, getting corrections and learning big principles as you go. Then you return, practice, go back to teacher, etc.

 

Now let's go a step even further, and say that you have some experience of moving your body, being able to feel internally. Suddenly you might be able to correct yourself on the basics!

 

You pick up steam, your practice gets better.

 

You pull finances together, can see teacher more and more, can travel more, maybe even move to teacher!

 

I'd rather work hard scraping by with scraps from a real tradition, than getting every day personal instruction from someone who never learned a real tradition.

 

But that's just me.

 

Source: Personal experience with live teachers who didn't know jack.

[de_paradise]

For learning skills like tennis or piano, its best to learn from a pro in the field, go to a school etc. For spiritual related teachings, its a little more complicated because we are talking about the path to unification with the source, not just some random ability or skill set.

 

The decisions are not taken by our conscious minds, because the intellect and our little voices are merely "echo chambers", they are not "us." Inasmuch as we think we are taking the decisions, we are deluded. Imagine a student who is not ready, or who has little merit, hunt down a great teacher in some place, based on "reasoning" in the echo chamber.

 

The source places us like dominos to match our readiness to further our progress. The chain of causation is complex, and what goes through our echo chamber minds is delightfully obscure, and who and what is pulling our strings in one direction or another is fathomlessly multidimensional.

[BaguaKicksAss]

I have a friend who teaches bagua and taiji. But the master he learns from is in Texas (we are not). He's pretty much decided to stop teaching bagua, because he just can't get serious students. One guy isn't enough

 

So he'll teach me some stuff here and there, but he has a full time job and family. Just not worth his time. There is one other teacher in the state. Same lineage, different town. Those are my options...or get what I can out of books.

 

So my experience is that teachers are not available.

 

But in some ways, the amount of books out there is due to them tagging on to the self-help new-age craze. Sifting through to find the true teachings is a hard thing for people like me...

 

 

 

 

I'm almost to the point where I'd move to live near a teacher who resonated with me.

 

Here there are many teachers, it is just the sifting through which can be difficult.

 

Personally I travel to train with my teacher simply because he teaches exactly what I am looking for, and we mesh quite well. I've been tempted to move for a few years to train, but I'm enjoying having the best of both worlds right now, love where I live.

[BaguaKicksAss]

In some cases, a book or a DVD is better quality instruction than you would get from a live teacher!

 

If you have a teacher who knows the movements but not the internal principles, aren't you pretty much just following along anyway? Even if he corrects you here and there, wouldn't he just be correcting your external form to make it look like his? He would not be able to see the internal processes, or be able to make adjustments that are necessary for your current development.

 

There is this assumption out there that "any in person training is better than anything else," and that's just not true. Not all teachers are created (made?) equal.

 

Now compare that to learning from a book or DVD of a master. Yes, for the most part you are following along (same as you would a live teacher who does not have the full authentic tradition). But on top of that, you also get the details of how each part of the form/set/routine is supposed to work.

 

Even if that's all you ever did, you'd learn more from one book than from a year of an in person teacher who didn't know what they were doing.

 

Now let's say that you travel and visit teachers in the meantime, getting corrections and learning big principles as you go. Then you return, practice, go back to teacher, etc.

 

Now let's go a step even further, and say that you have some experience of moving your body, being able to feel internally. Suddenly you might be able to correct yourself on the basics!

 

You pick up steam, your practice gets better.

 

You pull finances together, can see teacher more and more, can travel more, maybe even move to teacher!

 

I'd rather work hard scraping by with scraps from a real tradition, than getting every day personal instruction from someone who never learned a real tradition.

 

But that's just me.

 

Source: Personal experience with live teachers who didn't know jack.

 

I've more found books which spew crap, then the very odd good one. Well OK also teachers in person, but fortunately you can weed through those too if there are plenty around. I can see your point though, for example if there were no local Bagua teachers accept wushu folks, and you had the Yin Bagua vids... (or other good vids).

[BaguaKicksAss]

 

 

Why? do you know someone who can teach me, a person who has no money or resources? i could sell all my nintendo stuff, but that isnt gonna make much more than maybe $200 if im LUCKY, lucky. That isnt enough to last long though, and i really was banking on having kids to inherit my games

Yes, if you lived locally I could find you one person who often teaches for free or $5, then another group who teaches for $5 per lesson, and so forth. This is a large part because most of us practice and train outdoors in the parks or schoolgrounds around here, so no cost to run classes . Hopefully you have some folks local to you like this. Actually most teachers I know will take on 1-2 students at no cost, or very low cost, or trade. Even the teachers who charge quite a bit will sometimes do this for a very dedicated student.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Learn when you can. Each piece is leaked information if it is authentic. In the past they were secret,

we forget how precious they were. If you know the move you only need correction. Things one know

are easier to recall of. It is good to have media else those slow learner, bad memory, lack of awareness have little chance.

Our age is quite fortunate only to deal with information dicernment rather than with obtaining information.

 

This is so very true . We are very lucky in this day and age. It is much easier to find a teacher to train with now, and with modern technology we can video tape lessons, or at least ourselves.

 

Also more and more teachers are deciding that they would rather share the information than to have it die out completely. We are very fortunate indeed.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Heh, heh. I don't know how one can do it without some classes with a teacher. Maybe after a year of work on the principles will allow you to succeed with self-teaching. I tried to do Tai Chi once without a teacher but now I see why having a teacher is so important. I would not have gotten the feeling of back being straight at all.

 

Personally I'm at year 3 on the principals (for Bagua), and I can definitely say that I'm happy I received teaching past my first year lolololol. OK so some folks may get things faster than I do . I also feel/can tell that I have such a long way to go!

 

The corrections are one of the best things about having a teacher I think.

[BaguaKicksAss]

depends, i do have an online/video bagua teacher, and i know bagua teachers locally. of course i try and benefit however i can find it. the video instructor does review and make corrections when you supply him with video. books i think can lead to a deeper understanding, once you have the experience to understand. an advantage to the video, is that it is always ready when you are. if i feel like looking over a form a 4 am, it doesnt mind being played. when i began my bagua journey just over 4 years ago, i began with local teachers and video teacher at the same time. having more than one teacher can also have drawbacks.

initially i had the snake step down great, until a local teacher told me that i should never step like that. and then a year later he said, it was higher level.

i was a somewhat seasoned m.a. b4 i began the bagua, and i had tai chi experience, so, in a way i already knew the style i was after. and i follow a path that feels right to me, regardless of others opinions.

i do enjoy watching a wide variety of IMA and see so much beauty, depth, wisdom contained somewhere in all of them.

you are lucky to have found baguazhang in this lifetime. you are also lucky to have found ttb ; )

there are on this forum wonderful bagua players who never post as such and remain annyonomous, occasionally one might receive a pm that shares great knowledge.

 

That is still personalized training, so very close to in person. You also get corrections from the teacher, which is always so helpful.

 

Yeah, each teacher definitely seems to have their own unique take on things, this was a bit confusing for me at first!

 

For books alongside my teaching I have really enjoyed Park Bok Nam's book, as well as Jerry Alan Johnson's Bagua book.

 

I am very very lucky to have found Baguazhang, as well as to have found teachers who put so much effort into their student's training. TTB is pretty awesome as well :>.

[4bsolute]

I mean for martial arts, Taoist practice, Taoist related magic, qigong, and related. I'm curious why everyone goes for the various not in person sources? Is it due to difficulty finding a teacher? Or perhaps a teacher folks actually like? Or are the vids/books of higher quality than local teachers?

 

Personally I am fortunate that there are many skilled teachers in my area. Also traveling for quality teaching has never scared me off. Actually when it comes down to it, I would actually move for top quality teaching, as the above topics are quite important to me (and some of them have been part of my life for quite some time).

 

I see many questions and answers, an often wonder "how come they don't ask their teacher"? Or I see a video and wonder if they conflict with people's present paths/teachings or not. Of course I ask questions as well sometimes, my reasoning being that I get curious and don't want to pester my teacher too often .

 

I figure it isn't usually about money, since many teach for free, or $5.

 

Anyways, I've gotten quite curious. As you can likely guess, I highly recommend in person training if you can find it!

 

I can only speak for myself of course, and that is

 

that I only research for things I am intereted in. And this curiosity and my findings are the only driving force I need to practice alone. If I did not already do it previously and just need a reminer sometimes.

 

Because what always happens? You learn from a teacher and at a certain point you feel that you have enough and that you want to vary it. That's simply your Higher Perspective telling you that you now want to step into your own shoes and create reality for yourself. To become the master.

 

And dont misunderstand this, you can become the Master right from the start if you practice with yourself. The most kind and understanding teacher there is, is you

 

Why people charge for teachings? Because they still have to work on their Ego. I know people who give TONS of information for free on the internet, without charging one penny. They simply have a donation option. Because they know that they recieve by the amounts they already give and give and give.

 

You want loads of energy practices for free? There you go http://www.energygatesqigong.info/ - that is so much information, that lasts at least for half a lifetime.

 

So whats the conclussion? Something in your focus is greedy, so you type in words or affirmations in google that have an egotistic undertone... there must be something in you, that obviously attracts things that are not completly for free, yet. But I'm sure you will figure that out soon.

 

All the best.

Edited May 20, 2013 by 4bsolute

[raimonio]

It is good to get a realistic view of the scene, teachings and practices, before deciding whether you wish to follow a teacher. There are all kinds of teachers out there and it is the students responsibility to assess the teacher. Reading alot of information and looking at different practices etc. makes you a better judge.

 

Looking at the different practices and teachers I find it crucial to be extremely critical. There are people who simply go to a teacher and believe everything he says, but in most cases this is not a good idea. Also having more information makes it easier to find the kind of stuff that suits you. There are endless amounts of different paths and teachers. If you never did any research, but followed one teacher, you might never find out that there was always a better practice/philosophy/teaching for you.

 

I think that the teachings generally are still very inbred, single minded and narrow. All the paths have developed seperately form each other and have a very strong idea of how things go. Only now, trough peoples struggles, are the paths being made more open. All these paths talk about being open and accepting everything etc. but when you go ask a teacher about another path he will without exception talk down the other path and judge it based on his information about his own path. We need information to flow and be spread so that we could one day start making a more realistic take on the spiritual world. The teachers we have are mostly from the old world, where things were seperated. We are the new generation and it is our duty to bring everything together. These other-excluding teachings simply do not make sense, when you become aware of all the other stuff that is out there.

[manitou]

I think one gets to a point where Nature is the teacher. I have gotten so much from TTB's because I find some of the finest minds I've ever encountered here. knowledge on this forum can be triangulated, once the particular structures have been transcended. When one transcends their structure, it doesn't matter that one does not have a teacher any more. One finds all others who have transcended their structure and seem to meet in a kind of junction in the middle...all sorts of transcended structures.

 

It seems to me that the junction is to love your brother as yourself, and to be here Now. The structure is gone. Beyond that, a teacher cannot teach. He merely points at the moon and knows that his student must find the rest for himself and within himself.

Edited May 20, 2013 by manitou

[Flolfolil]

i don't normally even have the 6$ for an asana class most of the time

 

don't even get me started on the prices of various chinese practice courses, that for the most part don't allow drop ins

 

you have the money? good for you. not everyone has it and it isn't as simple as "just go to a teacher"

[Friend]

Edited August 17, 2013 by Friend

[JustBHappy]

One is simply not going to get the lineage transmission without the personal time year after year with an authentic master.

Videos don't cut it for the internal arts. A few minutes with a real master is much more valuable than all the video lessons in the world. Even for something extremely simple such as a static wuji posture. Then it becomes even moreso when you get into complex movements and energies.

Sure its good to go with what you have and where you are, but if your looking to develop true mastery then there is no other way in my opinion.

This of course brings up the actual teacher and his/her qualifications. I would wager that most self appointed teachers or masters out there have no real skill or lineage to offer. Finding a good teacher can be a lifelong process.

Personally I am thinking about meditation, qigong, and bagua/tai chi 24 hours a day so I often seek out alternative sources. I often buy too many dvd's/vcd's and books every-time I go to lionbooks but rarely does anything come close to the quality of instruction my Masters have given and continue to give me. Learning from books and videos guarantees that you will never receive the inner door knowledge and skills. No Chinese master would ever publish these things in my opinion.

[Friend]

Edited August 17, 2013 by Friend

[BaguaKicksAss]

i don't normally even have the 6$ for an asana class most of the time

 

don't even get me started on the prices of various chinese practice courses, that for the most part don't allow drop ins

 

you have the money? good for you. not everyone has it and it isn't as simple as "just go to a teacher"

 

Fortunately when I didn't have money, I was able to find free teachings. Also fortunately when it comes to martial arts, many folks will do a sliding scale. Of course the catch with any free or sliding scale teachings is that if you don't keep up with your daily "homework" you get booted very quickly . I also most definitely boot folks who I teach for free if they don't take the work seriously enough. There's a little more leeway for part time study if you have money lol.

 

That is unfortunate that there are not free or trade classes in your area. I know some retreat centers will do trade, even the ashrams don't charge, you just have to work 4-6 hours per day there.

 

I'm also lucky to have some trade goods when I'm low on cash.. web design, promo skills, graphic design and so forth. Money is often easier though, as it takes less hours to make money at a job than to build a website for a teacher LOL.

[BaguaKicksAss]

I will quite honestly say that on the path which I have a couple of decades of experience in (still a long way to go, but know a pretty good amount) that I have not seen anything on the internet which is of the actual quality teachings. For books, only about 5 which have been written in this century. I will admit, this also includes any books and online material I have personally written. The reason for this is.... you can't tell what a student/person is like unless in person really. Also there are things which cannot be taught via the written word. Then there is the whole not making certain things public (Friend worded many reasons for this far better than I ever can). And lastly, in anything I have written I only give hints, and direction... not the full thing. One would have to know, or ask further to make it work really well. I feel this might be the same with some of those QiGong books. Needless to say, due to this, I do have a bias .

 

HOWEVER... martial arts might be completely different, as a lot of it is physical, also it comes from a different time, place, etc. Also the Taoist stuff, which I also I know next to nothing about, so again, this could be quite different.