How come all the video, online, forums, books, etc. learning?

[Flolfolil]

but who taught the original masters?

[BaguaKicksAss]

OK, I officially appreciate all of the teachers who have taught me over the years, about ten times as much now!

[BaguaKicksAss]

but who taught the original masters?

 

I think the original masters were much more open and psychic than most folks today (or at least much more than I am lol). Also, they got together and collaborated and compared notes (think of the Bagua folks as just one example). Then for centuries, it was tried, tested, improved, refined and so forth (think TCM for example). I would not want to go trying to figure out acupuncture on my own via my own seeing abilities. Sure I'd get some good stuff, but I also might be doing folks a disservice for missing so much. I think the martial arts, meditation practices and so forth can be as complex as acupuncture, but in a different way. The reinventing the wheel sort of thing.

 

However, there's also that whole the student must go out on their own for a time thing as well, for self discovery, and to create their own way of going about things.

 

I have seen some awesome stuff come out of self taught energy work/metaphysical folks, but on the otherhand I have also seen some... well.... some things which have gone very very very wrongly. Perhaps one of the best aspects of a teacher is that we have someone who can help us pull our heads out of our behinds when we are screwing up .

 

I know it doesn't relate very well, but I learned jewelry making and metalsmithing completely on my own via trail and error, then after a time went to books and youtube. Lotsa fun, and saved thousands of dollars I didn't have . It's funny how many tricks I pick up over time though talking to experts at it who actually took proper courses or apprenticeships, which make things 100 times easier! I still really like learning this on my own LOL. It isn't a very good analogy as there isn't an energy component (well not usually anyways) and most of the info really is public knowledge.

[4bsolute]

It is old buisness [...]

 

Well put. I did not see it that way in any shape or form.

 

But you yourself will surely also say that it is good how it is now. That those informations are now free available to anyone.

 

I believe, unfortunatelly I do not know yet precicly, but I stay honest and say I believe, that information was always given from the spiritual realm, handed "down" when a human was ready to integrate that part into his society. Long before the internet. His thoughts then spread out like a wave on the planet and affected others. And so it could be integrated very quickly. We can see internet nowadays like a transmission of information, even accessible for non-realized beings that are not yet vibrating at a higher frequency, to get information directly from spirit. Basicly they themselves can then push their own spiritual evolution, by using the said internet for other ways than pure entertainment. I see this as a literally holy gift, the internet and how it evolved.

Edited May 20, 2013 by 4bsolute

[Sloppy Zhang]

I've more found books which spew crap, then the very odd good one. Well OK also teachers in person, but fortunately you can weed through those too if there are plenty around. I can see your point though, for example if there were no local Bagua teachers accept wushu folks, and you had the Yin Bagua vids... (or other good vids).

 

When I was young I studied martials arts with the only teacher in town. I thought "something is better than nothing." Eh, not so much. Not only did I practice an ineffective martial art, I got some pretty bad habits!

 

Sure, I got some "good" things out of it. Like I learned more about my own personal anatomy so I could fix what was messed up with my body. And I also learned to pay attention to the lineage! Who's teaching? Where did they learn from? Are they who they said they are?

 

Going into a bookstore and buying books off the shelf that strike your fancy is probably going to be the same as driving around town and signing up with a school that strikes your fancy. Some people are going to wind up signing up with masters, but a significant portion are going to get fluff at best, and bad practices at worst.

 

Research on the teacher and lineage is important. And a book/DVD from a legit master is going to be worth the non-legit master's weight in gold.

[Friend]

Edited August 17, 2013 by Friend

[xor]

Great just got a tip about a local teacher that I'm going to check out soon. Low price training in the park, taiji with tuishou.

[Immortal4life]

I don't know how come.....but it's kind of ridiculous.

 

99% of so called teachers are also not going to have the real art either.

 

To learn a genuine lineage or high level fighting art, will take time, energy, and personal sacrifices.

 

Here's a relevant article-

http://molingtaiji.com/?page_id=24

This site is administered by Marin Spivack, (myself) a 20th generation lineage holder and traditional Chen Taijiquan practitioner since 1996. I practice, develop and preserve a line of Taijiquan gongfu stretching back hundreds of years, and even more in less codified forms of Chinese meditative physical cultivation methods.

I began learning from Chen Jinhong (also known as ‘Gene Chen’) in San Francisco in 1996. He was a practitioner/teacher of Chen Taijiquan and the earliest tudi of Feng Zhiqiang. He was experienced with Yang style and Wu style taijiquan as well and earlier had been an adept at Zhu Gar (AKA southern Mantis).

I was introduced to Feng Zhiqiang, tudi of Chen Fake, in 1999 by Chen Jinhong, and trained personally with him during visits to Beijing for a number of years. I also trained personally for a period of time in Yin line Bagua with He Jinbao in Beijing. I eventually became formal tudi of Chenyu, son of Chen Zhaokui (Chen Fake’s son) in 2002 upon moving residence to Beijing where I lived for some years.

I hold a Bachelors degree in Asian Studies, from University of California, Berkeley, focusing on political science of China, with proficiency in spoken Mandarin Chinese, well versed in cultural nuances and lifestyle of mainland China. This of course went a long way to making such exploits possible and fruitful. I currently reside near Boston Massachusetts, in USA. I teach Chen Taijiquan publicly and privately in the traditional way in Boston, Cambridge and Salem, MA USA.

I started Taijiquan training at the age of 25 and over the longer term sacrificed many normal goals and arrangements that people my age would commonly have adhered to in the pursuit of very special and authentic gongfu practice. The result is that I did have some success in learning, acquiring gongfu skill that is very hard to find and learn, but I also paid for it with sacrifices in life, money, and time, that most people would find intolerable.

It is fair to say that I am a ‘black sheep’ in the world of Taijiquan and gongfu in general, because I generally am moving in the opposite direction of current social trends in gongfu. I stay towards the ‘old school’ viewpoint; Taijiquan gongfu practice is for the purposes of practical martial method, and energetic, spirit, and self cultivation.

Suffering the influence of the fast-paced changes in our world, Taijiquan is mostly trending towards either competitive sport involvement, appearance based performance, simplified relaxation practice, or shameless profit-seeking on the seminar circuit.

I am one of the very few westerners who has learned the language and culture of China to a practical level that allowed me to move to China and become the first western disciple of Chenyu, the only son of Chen Zhaokui. I made the necessary sacrifices to do such a thing and put the work and time into training to learn enough to have both a factual and experiential basis to discuss what the art really is about, rather than simply repeating what I have been told or speculating what the art ‘should’ be like.

In the world of Taijiquan, holding to falsehoods and illusions about the realities of traditional gongfu training is so commonplace that the truth is becoming an alien species. If the largest amount of people commonly discussing together, mostly have no first hand traditional training experience, then the ideologies promoted will suit that lack of experience, such that it MUST offer an altered truth that suits the masses of people involved. It is a statistical impossibility that such a number of humans will continue to accept a lack of the status of holders of ‘truth’. Eventually if a large enough group does not hold the truth, they will just alter it, or create one that they CAN hold.

There are a few other westerners in Chen Taijiquan who put this word “tudi” (disciple) after their name, but the great majority of them either do not speak any Chinese or have never lived in China, or both, mostly both. Learning gongfu, personally, every day, at one’s teacher’s home for years, is totally different from attending a few seminars, giving teacher a large sum of money and then carrying a title. The learning has a qualitative and quantitative difference.

I have, over the years, been quite outspoken online to attempt to share some truth about the actual gongfu from someone who has really made the necessary effort, and as a result I have certainly bothered a lot of people and disturbed vested interests. Gongfu, of course is a human endeavor, and being that, it has a strong social and even tribal component. Regardless of whether people have any interest in or involvement in authentic gongfu training, they will usually feel and display a very authentic allegiance to their social group, and defend the identify they have constructed within that particular practice and social group.

The truth is that, in the west especially, the level of understanding of what constitutes authentic internal gongfu training , is very low. This problem is exacerbated by the rush by many Chinese teachers to sell eager students in the west anything they will pay for, regardless of it’s simplification or lack of authenticity, it’s a big business for them.

For me to have made the effort to learn the language and culture, move to China and ‘baishi’ to a traditional family gongfu teacher who only became known widely some years after, and then attempt to shed light on that situation in the west is absolutely swimming against the current, and it has been from the very start.

This site will be a vehicle for sharing and discussing of information that usually has no voice in online forums, and discussions, and is not addressed in seminars and competitions. My information will not make everyone happy, but it will be truthful. The authenticity I share will help those who need it, and at the very least provide one voice illustrating a totally different destination, purpose and practice for Taijiquan than where it is currently headed.

 

And-

Well, maybe there is something to that, the strange part. I am not sure.
What I do know is that I was not forced into anything. I quite willingly chased this passion across the world and still thrill on it. That part of the perception is probably your own coloring of the read.

In terms of efforts and sacrifices, that is kind of answering a question that is not posted here; something I repeatedly ran into online, which was a kind of jealous indignation from those who never made the effort and the sacrifice but instead stayed in their neighborhood and did not go to the source of the art. Some people like this, when they encounter someone from their own culture who did what they did not and are more well versed in the art as a result, respond with a kind of incredulousness and discomfort that someone else has what they feel they deserve to have, completely regardless of the fact that they did not make the sacrifice to get it. That is a really common theme.

I have not claimed to be a prophet, but facts are facts and I did what I did and have the knowledge that I have. I do have some valuable information and I bother to tell about the effort and sacrifice it takes to get that information and experience to help some to realistically understand what is required to walk this path, and to combat the insistence that we are all just going to arrive at the same place by popping into a few seminars a year and being a ‘casual Taiji player’ as you’ve called yourself here.

Of course there is nothing wrong with that, just hoping that one can be realistic about what that is and where it leads to. Hopefully that jealously indignant person is not you, but even if it is, thanks for your contribution and hopefully you get something useful out of the site. More will be added in the future.
Thanks.

[Uroboros]

I have learned allot from books, the internet, dvds and Taobums. Still, I made little real progress until I found my Teacher. I feel there are things you can learn from books and such. If you cant put it into practice, its not worth much. Having a teacher who has been there, who knows what can and will happen, is priceless. Plus, a teacher can see where you are on the path and what your unique condition is. That has been gigantic for me. So many things would have taken so much longer to heal/ figure out without having a skilled Teacher. There are nuances to learning forms/ practices that you might miss from a book or dvd. Those can be very problematic. I feel that the use of media as a learning tool is tremendous, when used in conjunction with a skilled Teacher. That way you cover your bases. You dont end up doing a practice that will actually hurt you because of some imbalance you didnt realize existed. If I had to choose media or teacher, I would choose teacher every time. Far better to learn one good, solid practice and do that right, then learn a whole bunch of things that may or may not help you truly progress into the depths.

Peace.

[Thunder_Gooch]

I'm curious why everyone goes for the various not in person sources? Is it due to difficulty finding a teacher?

Here is my perspective. 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of all these "teachers" don't represent systems that actually do anything.

 

If your goal is to find peace, learn to make your body do pretty movements, or whatever, then that's fine. If you are looking to accomplish something meaningful, these "teachers" certainly have attained nothing of meaning in all their years of practice.

 

They still die like dogs, just like the rest of us.

 

Why fill my head with more useless knowledge, from people who haven't accomplished anything meaningful?

 

Seems like a fool's errand to me.

 

World wide there are only a small handful of teachers worth learning under.

Edited July 7, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Uroboros]

I have observed that in some form as well, MorePieGuy. Some people teach QiGong and Yoga and other methods without themselves being skilled enough to know what they are doing. An example, I knew a person who was teaching Medical QiGong after practicing for 4 to 8 years. That is no time at all for these practices. I wondered at how this person felt they could teach people how to get some real healing/ cultivation when they were still a baby. Maybe you progress faster in certain systems because of the focus. It does also seem to matter what system a unique person is learning. some are...attuned to certain ones more then others. All this to say, there are teachers who have been deep into the path and those who have just scratched the surface. Allot of what we consider to be great, high cultivation, might end up not being it at all. It has just become the normal gauge for progression. Some thoughts. Peace.

[Uroboros]

On the topic of charging, I find it to be a general good thing. Nowadays people value their money more then time/ effort. If a person pays for something, they are more likely to actually do it. Plus, it helps a teacher sift thru potential students. How much do they value what they are learning? Enough to pay for? We have these people who have spent their lives developing themselves and progressing down certain paths, why should they share this for free to anyone who wants it while the blacksmith or the carpenter gets paid? Its a craft. One that is very deep and if people who practice it and reach a level where they can teach, decide to teach, I feel it is a good thing for them to use their craft to pay their bills. That way more people can learn because they are taken care of. I feel that saying its a spiritual thing so it must not be tainted by money is ignoring that spirituality is life. Its about life and money is a part of life. If you want to talk about the whole/ one, you cant exclude something. Anywho, more thoughts. Peace.

[BaguaKicksAss]

I actually know of some authors who have NEVER practiced the topic they are writing about. I'm not kidding. Book learned only. Then you get the folks who have only ever learned from books and never an in person teacher. This second category is quite prevalent in various mystical topics. It is unfortunate.

 

For in person teachers it can be just as bad, some have only learned from reading a few books or weekend workshops.

 

I still find in person teachers to be of much better quality just due to the method of passing the information along. Well that and in person you can see what sort of person they are, how their energy is and so forth.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Here's my experience from the well balanced, even keeled school of thought:

 

Some books are better than live teachers.

 

What?

 

Yeah. Some books are better than live teachers.

 

For instance, B.K. Frantzis (whose material I primarily study) has books and DVD's out there, that contain more information than many (I almost used the word "most" here, but there are a LOT encompassed in the use of the word "many") even know.

 

So I would suggest, between a book like "Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body", or his Tao series of books (forget the name now, but Relaxing Into Your Being, the Great Stillness, The Tao of Letting Go, and his Taoist Sexual Meditation book), or his DVD's like the Hsing-I series, and Bob's Tae Kwon Do and Ki Gong (yes, Ki Gong)?

 

Frantzis' book any day.

 

I will say, however, that my experience in karate schools of murky lineage and other similarly local martial arts did teach my body coordination, learning how to feel my body move in space, and learning how to look in a mirror, see what needs correcting, and correcting it myself.

 

Am I perfect? No.

 

But I made leaps and bounds more progress than I would have made if I "studied with the 'master' in person"? If the master is Si Gong Bob (yes, Si Gong) then yes, I did.

 

Now that I've got the disposable income to go to seminars (his books are modestly priced, but the seminars and some of their exotic locations will get ya, but saving up for once every year and a half to two years and good planning/budgeting does it for me, personally) I jump in knowing exactly what I'm doing, and can soak up every bit of information that isn't in the books.

 

I cringe and feel bad for people who show up and don't know stuff that is in the books or DVD's, or asks a question that could be answered in them. I'm like "dude and or dudette!? You could have had that question answered for 12.95 on Amazon but instead you pay thousands of dollars in seminars and travel to ask if you should breathe from the front or back of the lungs? Nooooooooo."

 

Okay, I exaggerate.

 

But still. I put the quote in my signature "start where you are, use what you have, do what you can" for a reason. Because people CAN'T up and travel to seminars on in person teachers who are true and good. I was one of those people for a long time. I held on to books and DVD's, I shunned Bob's Tae Know Hapki Do, I took shit from people on this forum who criticized my approach and life choices, and I did what I could. Other things in my life moved around (or did I move them around?), and I was able to move to a next step, and man, what a next step! I have a workable understanding of knowledge and theory that when I DO make it to a seminar, I'm just sucking up gobs and gobs of information that just isn't readily consumable in an accessible fashion (not to say that it's "secret" but it's just not highly visible).

 

For in person teachers it can be just as bad, some have only learned from reading a few books or weekend workshops.

 

I still find in person teachers to be of much better quality just due to the method of passing the information along. Well that and in person you can see what sort of person they are, how their energy is and so forth.

 

This, and similar sounding posts by other people, might have more to do with your own personal learning style.

 

For instance, I'm a very "mental" person in my approach. I learn by analyzing, understanding, and internalizing the theory. Once I have the theory, and a map for how that practice fits in the theory, I can make it my own and do it quite naturally. If you tell me to just stand up and do a bunch of things, I'm just like "this is dumb." But when I understand the theory behind it, I'm like "fuck yeah let's go back and do that thing now."

 

So hey, maybe people don't read, for instance, Frantzis' materials, because they aren't the kind of learner I am. And maybe my success with my approach is because of the learner I am. So your mileage may vary. If you have limited financial resources, though, and are limited by location, then your options with regard to applicable learning styles is also limited.

 

So maybe it's not "live teachings are better in quality" it's that "some people retain information learned by watching or doing, and so it appears to them that the teachings they learned via those methods stuck to them more than the methods they read in a book, and so they interpret that to mean that if you want to learn a good teaching that will last with you then it will be done in person.

 

Maybe.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Sloppy Zhang

[Uroboros]

BaguaKicksAss- I have observed that same thing. People who dont really practice or who are weekend warriors. So much information out there is mediocre. When I talk about having a teacher, i mean a teacher who is skilled. Who has penetrated certain depths beyond the fundamentals. Otherwise, there is probably not much you are going to get out of it. How the person treats you does show allot about who they are and what they practice. Does their personality show some effects of training? Do they act in a manner you would expect? Most of all, do they seem healthy and strong? Questions like these can help us...discern who to learn from and find a real gem.

SloppyZhang- I agree with you, some books are filled with wonderful information. If a teacher charges thousands of dollars for a seminar, I would expect that they not only know how to teach powerful methods during a short time, with retention and accuracy for the students, that they also have a way for their students to course correct. Some things you can learn from books, especially books with real knowledge/ wisdom in them. Your point about learning styles is important, I feel. I learn best thru hands on, doing/ experience. Im glad that you have found a way that works for you! The main thing I feel concerned about with learning predominantly from books is course correction. You learn one thing yet do a part of it a little off...and that ripples into bigger problems that down the road, are much harder to heal. How do you handle this?

Peace.

[Sloppy Zhang]

The main thing I feel concerned about with learning predominantly from books is course correction. You learn one thing yet do a part of it a little off...and that ripples into bigger problems that down the road, are much harder to heal. How do you handle this?

Peace.

 

Constant vigilance!

 

I've read "Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body" probably 6 or 7 times. Not cursory glances and snippets, but reading as if it was my first time (okay, I do skip some of the parts on Frantzis' backstory ) Sometimes things jump out at me, sometimes I see a point I didn't before, because I know I need to focus on it and go "oh hey, I don't need to spend a thousand dollars on an event, the answer is right here!" I'm still surprised by the things he includes in the basic books.

 

You also have to be very disciplined in your practice, and observing what you are doing. It is so easy to get "lazy" when you're practicing and "space out". If you have a teacher who walks around and hits you with a stick, or makes adjustments, it's not a big deal.

 

But what if you are alone in your mountain cave? I mean, studio apartment? No teacher to whack you then. You have to keep yourself focused! Keep yourself from spacing out, And if you do, you need to bring yourself back, and figure out what went wrong.

 

If you do a movement practice (like qigong or Tai Chi) you need to scrutinize every movement. There are videos that I've watched the same 3 seconds fifty times in a row because I want to see what Frantzis or one of his senior instructors is doing with just their foot, how is it moving? How did that movement originate in the leg? How did it originate in the waist? How did that power their arm? Wait, is their arm and foot coordinated? How is it? Where is that coming from? Ah, I see the waist turning. How does his foot move during this transition? Where is his weight?

 

Each of those questions take up another 2-3 seconds of video watching

 

Then you need to scrutinize YOUR every movement. Stand in front of a mirror and do it. Again, I did learn Karate before, so I'm kind of used to this. But you can learn this skill also from playing a sport with a good coach (muuuuuch better and cheaper for most of us to find than a real internal master!) or a personal trainer at the gym. How does your body move through space, how do you coordinate what you're seeing with what you're doing/feeling?

 

Also stay humble. Does Frantzis even know my name? No. I just read his books, watch his DVD's, practice like crazy, and still suck ass compared to him and his senior instructors, and even instructors who do this as a profession.

 

Also, the stuff you're doing is basic basic basic stuff. Foundational stuff, but basic.

 

Also, stick to the basics. Something like, say, the Bagua Mastery Program has some pretty wild stuff as far as openings and closings, twistings, bendings and stretchings. I don't do ANY of that stuff.

 

Why? Well, because I can't. There also isn't a lot of public instruction out there on exactly how to do it (Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body is a pretty deep dive, but is there anything like that on openings and closings? Twisting? Nope) so I can't really learn.

 

There is a lot of material that can be pieced together, and I think I have successfully pieced it together (enough to do it if I practiced). But then there's the injury aspect. I don't want to hurt myself doing a practice that even long term students only do moderately well (and even senior instructors can't do it nearly so well as Frantzis himself).

 

Truth be told, I don't even do the full spine stretch from Energy Gates. It does seem very powerful, and I can see where the benefits come from. I can also see the progression that it acts as the basis for, where you incorporate openings and closings, get a good pump going, etc.

 

But damn I don't want to fuck up my spine! So I don't.

 

I do keep the knowledge of it in mind for theory, and how it can be applied. For instance, bending from the back of the spine and straightening from the front. I keep that in mind whenever I fix my posture for instance (I tend to slump, but have gotten better since working out more, stronger supporting muscles). But I don't actively do the spine stretch.

 

So know your limits, and stay humble.

 

Also be your own worse critic. I suck at everything!

 

And that helps when you meet Frantzis or a senior instructor. Because when they tell you something that you missed, you can do it instantly. And since you have a solid foundation in other things, it can gel with your system a lot quicker.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Sloppy Zhang

[Uroboros]

Interesting...I can see how putting that much effort and contemplation into each tiny part would help you course correct. I agree that understanding the Theory behind each "thing" helps tremendously. I have to do that when I ponder the nature of nature. hhaha. You go in a direction and then end up someplace very strange....gotta see if the principles are still being expressed coherently. I admire your focus on fundamentals. Building that strong foundation so if you do end up doing other things you can actually do them properly. Who knows! You may, in your practice, have more complicated things show themselves naturally. It sounds like you spend allot of time on internal awareness. Thats wonderful! I have to do the same, as well. Thank you for going into such a detailed explanation of how you learn and why it works for you. Much fuel for ze fire. When you talk about analyzing each movement, I can relate. When my Teacher shows me things, I observe and pick up stuff I might not realize right then. Later on I realize- OH, thats what I need to do now. haha. Its fascinating that we all can have such varied ways of learning....Life is colorful, at the least. Humility is important. Being able to actually listen and realize that you might not be doing it perfectly...hehe, perfection,..does it exist? I dunno.

Peace.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Taking video of yourself and watching it can also be a great tool .

 

On another note, I have personally found (and discussed this with experienced folks) that the cost of the teaching (in martial arts, mysticism, qigong, taichi, spiritual teachings) is completely irrelevant to the skill/knowledge/lineage of the teacher. There are some amazing folks who teach in the park for next to nothing. There are some amazing folks who charge hundreds per hours. The reverse is also true for both... and anywhere in between.

[BaguaKicksAss]

One concern I would have, is the information that is, and never will be, in books/video/public. There is a lot that people will teach you in person (after a time) if they feel you are a good person and practice regularly. This can be due to lineage secrets, some stuff that just can't be expressed in words or even on video, specialized training that a teacher may give some certain students, while others may need a different sort... and so forth.

 

Also in the subjects (esoteric related) where I have been teaching for 20 years in... I have yet to see someone who has learned from books/videos who can work with, or pull off anywhere near the same sort of stuff that someone who has been taught by a lineage holder can do.

 

I guess I could also use my own jewelry making as an example. I have been self taught for 8 years, with internet, vids and etc. However talking with and taking classes from the folks who have been at it for 20-40 years has made me improve 2-3 times as much in just a few months! However I didn't have the location/resources to learn in person for most of those 8 years, so I did what I could, and managed pretty well considering. Actually my teachers are amazed I pulled it off at all lol.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Taking video of yourself and watching it can also be a great tool .

 

On another note, I have personally found (and discussed this with experienced folks) that the cost of the teaching (in martial arts, mysticism, qigong, taichi, spiritual teachings) is completely irrelevant to the skill/knowledge/lineage of the teacher. There are some amazing folks who teach in the park for next to nothing. There are some amazing folks who charge hundreds per hours. The reverse is also true for both... and anywhere in between.

 

But again, circumstances are as variable as people.

 

It might be that the old man who walks in the park was trying to escape Communist China, and in exchange for cleaning his gutters he teaches you internal secrets.

 

Or it might be that the old man in the park is just another old man in the park. And hey, when you can't afford a plane ticket or you don't have a car, a master two states over might as well be in China.

 

My point is that people can't always be around the teachers they want to be around. The teachers aren't always there. And when a teacher isn't there, or a QUALITY teacher is not there, books/dvd's can be an incredibly viable opportunity.

 

One concern I would have, is the information that is, and never will be, in books/video/public. There is a lot that people will teach you in person (after a time) if they feel you are a good person and practice regularly. This can be due to lineage secrets, some stuff that just can't be expressed in words or even on video, specialized training that a teacher may give some certain students, while others may need a different sort... and so forth.

 

Also in the subjects (esoteric related) where I have been teaching for 20 years in... I have yet to see someone who has learned from books/videos who can work with, or pull off anywhere near the same sort of stuff that someone who has been taught by a lineage holder can do.

 

I guess I could also use my own jewelry making as an example. I have been self taught for 8 years, with internet, vids and etc. However talking with and taking classes from the folks who have been at it for 20-40 years has made me improve 2-3 times as much in just a few months! However I didn't have the location/resources to learn in person for most of those 8 years, so I did what I could, and managed pretty well considering. Actually my teachers are amazed I pulled it off at all lol.

 

You can't really help that there are things that can't be put in books. At some point, it's gonna happen.

 

That said, you can make some VERY good progress through self study, discipline, maybe some luck, and maybe some talent/insight.

 

Regarding inner door teachings, even if you learned from them in person there's still a very good chance they WON'T tell you those anyway If it's a choice between shelling out cash for a book or hoofing it to visit a teacher you don't have a connection to in the hope that you're going to get some "inner teaching," go for the book.

 

Regarding "initiation," plain old history and statistics can explain that success. If you are learning from a teacher, group of teachers, or a long standing well documented lineage (whether that documentation exists internally or externally) you suddenly have the resources of all of those teacher's insights.

 

Having trouble with something? Maybe your teacher had the same issue, and can help you. Maybe another student had the issue and he knows the fix. Maybe a past student had the issue and has the fix. Maybe an old master made some observation that has been preserved. Maybe one of your other teachers or members of the lineage have insights into it. When you have a supporting network, you're going to have more success.

 

 

We've all heard the story of how Yang Luchan spied on the Chen family teachings of Tai Chi. He was discovered, and what did he do? He kicked the crap out of all of the current students. How? Because he studied like a fiend! He didn't just "watch" the teachings, he "watched" the teachings. And when he went back to his room, he didn't just "practice" the teachings, he "practiced" the teachings. He applied superior amounts of detail and refinement to what he was learning.

 

THAT is what gets you to success.

 

If you don't have a teacher, I say don't sweat. If all you have is access to a book or the internet? Do what Yang Luchan did.

 

He learned from a master at a distance, and applying dedication he was head and shoulders above all of the other students.

 

If you're THAT good, you'll discover something on your own. If it doesn't happen, then when you meet teachers they're going to like having such a competent student, and you'll be able to take right off.

[Uroboros]

BaguaKicksAss- Taking videos of ourselves can be incredibly helpful, i agree! I have also observed that some teachers might happen to be skilled at marketing or have a good marketing team yet what they teach is...only good for certain things. The hype does not equal the quality, sometimes.

I wonder if this comes to a fundamental problem...that we are trying to take something and express it with words..when it cannot truly be. Maybe the full sensory experience is far closer, a more accurate guide post towards the things.

it does seem that quite a few books have missing information, or just pieces. whether this is because the writer does not know or that they choose to withhold, I dont know.

 

SloppyZhang- Im not disagreeing with you, that media methods of learning work for some. This is not an absolute. as you say, its varied, unique, circumstantial.

The only thing I feel concerned about is that a person might think they are getting somewhere by themselves OR learning from a teacher, without any real...experience of that development. We delude ourselves quite easily at times.

There are some people who can watch, observe and see the essence of a thing. Many dont seem to be able too.

If you are that dedicated, many teachers would probably love to have ya! haha.

 

My point is this. Having a quality teacher who can help you along your unique path, based on your unique condition, is very helpful and valuable to me. If someone else does not want that or think they need it, good for them! Everybody is unique. Thats a big part of what makes life beautiful. Both sides are correct in their own way.

Peace.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Now I wonder if a teacher who doesn't put much effort into the teaching (fortunately I have yet to experience one, but I have heard stories...), or a giant class... would be any better than books/vids? Fortunately I'm far from shy, so any group class I'm up near the front at varying angles throughout class to get the most out of it lol. Boy do I prefer one on one though.

 

SloppyZhang, many good points. Also yes, one most definitely wouldn't want to shun books/vids if they can't find a decent teacher they work well with in their area.

 

Some folks have also talked about getting together to practice with peers if there are no teachers around, or if your teacher is not local. Then you can be an unbiased opinion for each other .

[Uroboros]

Hmm...thats a difficult question..I have not met a teacher who is does not put forth effort. My own Teacher puts forth allot of effort with me..haha, I need it, thought! Gosh, a giant class would drive me a bit batty. far too much going on for me to get anything. One on one is the best for my own self. Like how SloppyZhang needs to understand the principles/ theory and can learn allot from books.

 

Hmm...If peers get together and practice...yet none are more skilled then others in any large way....will it be more then a large group of people groping in the dark instead of just one? Horror movies show how that works out....haha

[BaguaKicksAss]

I think a lot of unskilled folks together is slightly better than one alone. Then you can get positive feedback from your peers. For example "uhm, no really, that horse stance was nothing like the picture". Or "uhm, honestly dude, I don't think that there really are aliens teaching you a new method of qigong, you might want to check into that". (please excuse the terribly uncreative examples heh)

 

It's sort of a method so that we don't go too far into seeing what we want to with our own practice.

[Uroboros]

Creating a feedback loop. Hmm...that is probably better then a single person alone. Maybe even doing a book club type get together. Each person can express their own interpretation and they can work thru that.

Aliens..hehe...Cosmic Hyperspeed Saucer Qigong! Very powerful.