How come all the video, online, forums, books, etc. learning?

[Sloppy Zhang]

BaguaKicksAss- Taking videos of ourselves can be incredibly helpful, i agree! I have also observed that some teachers might happen to be skilled at marketing or have a good marketing team yet what they teach is...only good for certain things. The hype does not equal the quality, sometimes.

I wonder if this comes to a fundamental problem...that we are trying to take something and express it with words..when it cannot truly be. Maybe the full sensory experience is far closer, a more accurate guide post towards the things.

it does seem that quite a few books have missing information, or just pieces. whether this is because the writer does not know or that they choose to withhold, I dont know.

 

SloppyZhang- Im not disagreeing with you, that media methods of learning work for some. This is not an absolute. as you say, its varied, unique, circumstantial.

The only thing I feel concerned about is that a person might think they are getting somewhere by themselves OR learning from a teacher, without any real...experience of that development. We delude ourselves quite easily at times.

There are some people who can watch, observe and see the essence of a thing. Many dont seem to be able too.

If you are that dedicated, many teachers would probably love to have ya! haha.

 

My point is this. Having a quality teacher who can help you along your unique path, based on your unique condition, is very helpful and valuable to me. If someone else does not want that or think they need it, good for them! Everybody is unique. Thats a big part of what makes life beautiful. Both sides are correct in their own way.

Peace.

 

Unfortunately, not everyone has access to a teacher who can judge them, or even a teacher who has developed the perception to truly see what that person TRULY needs. Not all masters are the same.

 

Regarding gauging progress, again, that comes to diligence and training. Are you really making progress?

 

I did some standing practices from Tai Chi that I learned from books/videos. I learned the theory, and I did the practice. So then I saw videos of masters who couldn't be pushed. So I went to my brother who is 220 lbs of muscle and said "hey man, I'm going to stand like this, could you try and push me over?" and he was like "ok."

 

He usually winds up pushing me over. But every time I do it, I learn more about structure, root, etc.

 

It's also good because he has no bias. He is not invested in Tai Chi, health, standing, structure. He goes to the gym and throws weights around. He's very healthy and very strong (proper training, no over training, immediately treats pains/stiffness, etc). So he is in no way trying to "go along" with it.

 

I honestly think serious Tai Chi people interested in Tai Chi for martial arts should go train with some MMA people. Why? Because MMA people aren't going to go along with anything! And if you lose your root, hey, you'll be choking on your back. How's that for feedback?

 

Analyze, experiment, analyze, experiment, etc etc etc etc.

 

Then when you have the ability, go see a teacher, get refinements, then go out and find out what works and what doesn't.

 

Back in the old days, if your Tai Chi failed you then you died. Luckily, MMA guys aren't going to kill you during practice.

 

But how many Tai Chi people are going to walk into an MMA club and say "hey guys, I've been doing Tai Chi, and want to test my development. Do you mind if we did some sparring and I'll try and stay rooted so you can't take me down and I'll try to blend with your strikes so they don't hurt?"

 

MMA guys won't really care. Some gyms might make you sign a waiver before you join, but hey. They'll probably try and convert you to MMA so you aren't deluding yourself. But really, who has the balls to do that?

 

I don't. My level of Tai Chi is NOTHING! I'll fall back to my MMA knowledge in a pinch. So there go my principles

 

But how far are you willing to go? How well are you going to use the resources at hand?

 

Now I wonder if a teacher who doesn't put much effort into the teaching (fortunately I have yet to experience one, but I have heard stories...), or a giant class... would be any better than books/vids? Fortunately I'm far from shy, so any group class I'm up near the front at varying angles throughout class to get the most out of it lol. Boy do I prefer one on one though.

 

SloppyZhang, many good points. Also yes, one most definitely wouldn't want to shun books/vids if they can't find a decent teacher they work well with in their area.

 

Some folks have also talked about getting together to practice with peers if there are no teachers around, or if your teacher is not local. Then you can be an unbiased opinion for each other .

 

Well, B.K. Frantzis' seminars can get pretty big. But luckily a good number of his senior students show up, so they help out a lot too. And of course you have to take responsibility for your own learning. If you don't get something, ask.

 

I think a lot of unskilled folks together is slightly better than one alone. Then you can get positive feedback from your peers. For example "uhm, no really, that horse stance was nothing like the picture". Or "uhm, honestly dude, I don't think that there really are aliens teaching you a new method of qigong, you might want to check into that". (please excuse the terribly uncreative examples heh)

 

It's sort of a method so that we don't go too far into seeing what we want to with our own practice.

 

It depends on what you mean by "a lot of unskilled folks together". Do you mean me mixed with some MMA dudes and I tell them I'm going to spar with them using Tai Chi?

 

Or are you talking about a lot of unskilled folks together who are all invested in the practice so will go along with it?

 

Because then you have guys like this:

 

Creating a feedback loop. Hmm...that is probably better then a single person alone. Maybe even doing a book club type get together. Each person can express their own interpretation and they can work thru that.

Aliens..hehe...Cosmic Hyperspeed Saucer Qigong! Very powerful.

 

I think it's very careful about what "feedback loop" you're getting into.

 

The feedback loop where fantasy meets crushing reality until the quality of your practice is able to produce something real?

 

Or the feedback loop where one person agrees with another person's delusion and the fantasy gets way out of hand... and then reality LITERALLY crushes you, like this dude (warning, brutal):

 

[Uroboros]

SloppyZhang! So many insightful points. What a wonderful discussion we are sharing in.

 

not everyone does have access to a teacher of a skillful quality that can understand their unique state and help them progress in a holistic manner. I agree. IF you can, then I feel its worth its weight in salt. Although, if you can find a teacher who...is skilled in some things, even if they are not able to understand your unique state, you can learn allot.

 

It is easy to delude ourselves into thinking we have made progress...especially when we dont have a good gauge of what the deeper states are.

 

I completely agree with you on your training methods. Use everything you can to refine and deepen. Its great that your friend, who cares not for Taiji, is willing to go with your requests. A wonderful way to test and refine. By actually testing...what a novel idea!

 

Yes, if your practicing MA of any kind and you want to have any martial skill, at some point you would probably benefit greatly from sparring against all types of practitioners you can. Also non practitioners. Find someone who fights more like a criminal. Study violence. See how most street fights happen. If a person tries to kill you or rob you, how does that usually go down? Is there time to set up techniques and get in the "zone" or do they just walk up and stab you 10 times in the stomach? Thats completely different from someone throwing a punch.

 

I feel the mental aspect is vital as well. Can you bring forth the mental state that will allow you to respond properly in a violent situation? Do we have methods to cultivate that state, so if something happens, we can snap out of a freeze/ lock up?

 

Im glad that at BK Frantzis's Seminars his senior students come. Do they create an environment that you feel is open towards asking questions until you understand?

 

When I said feedback loop, I was talking about one where all the participants are working towards helping each other really progress, so if something does not work, it does not work and they help each other find out how it could work.

 

Even if a group of people are unskilled and invested in the practice. that does not mean they will just go along with it. I feel that if I am invested in it, I want to get real skill. So deluding myself is silly and wastes my time and theirs. That kind of attitude, I feel could be beneficial in a group.

 

I do feel thats one of the big problems with Traditional Martial Arts nowadays. many train hard, they just might not spar/ fight as much as MMA practitioners do. MMA practitioners practice very hard. Allot of them fight to condition themselves. Going from light sparring/ form practice to dealing with a person who does that often, will probably be very difficult. So, since in the old days TMA were used to defend/ attack and all that, whats the difference between how they trained and how we might train now? If we can figure out how to..adjust and correct these problems, then the arts may have practitioners of real, deep, quality skill again. Who knows!

 

Peace.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Martial artists who don't do sparring? I haven't met many of those... fortunately, since I love the fighty aspect. I know the taichi folks don't often, but most of the people who practice taichi are doing it for health, not for fighting. Nothing wrong with that. I know some folks who definitely use the taichi as a fighting art, they are quite experienced though 20-40 years in.

 

Taichi folks sparring with MMA folks would be awesome. You just obviously don't go up against a 5th year MMA person in your first year, and vice versa. Go with the same skill/experience level. Most folks I have talked with recommend getting together with people from different martial arts to gain more experience. I ran a martial arts sparring group for a time, where people from any path could join in. However I was only 2 years into martial arts and everyone else was 8, 20 and 30 years into the practice already LOL. They were bored senseless working with me, and ouch on my part, heh. Sparring with teachers on the otherhand is a hell of a lot of fun, since they are your teacher, they make it difficult enough that you are really trying and definitely on the losing end, but not impossible, so you still learn a lot. Well also many less trips to the hospital with a teacher as they are used to toning it down for the newbies.

 

Oh right, we were talking about in person vs book/vid learning . I will just have to sum it up to your experiences have been far different than mine. I have taught many book learned folks, and the unlearning process really takes a lot of time. On the other hand, if everyone was as dedicated to their practice as Sloppy Zhang that might be a different story.

 

PS, I hope that lady quit that class afterwards lolololol.

[RiverSnake]

I think certain things you can learn from books. An example is emptiness meditation, this is something that most people probably wouldn't need a teacher for but is still a fundamental but very simple skill which can take you cool places and develop your discernment and intuition so you can pick apart the fakes from the people whom actually know what there talking about. Also so you can begin to get intuitive insights for yourself. As others mentions its important to not go into these things blind.

 

However, extremely complicated and deep topics like Tai Chi, Bagua....etc.....geez good luck. Teachers are very important.....I also feel that when making progress the most important role a teacher has is to give you poke when your doing something stupid and make whatever corrections you need......the other 70% is hard work and being consistent on a daily basis in your practice.

 

My 2 cents, Peace

Edited July 8, 2013 by OldGreen

[Uroboros]

BaguaKicksAss- Unfortunately, I have met some MA who do little sparring. The sparring that they do is light and in no way even 80 percent force. I have also met some that are far more serious about their development! it takes all kinds to make the world, it seems. Can you go into the deeper depths of Taji without practicing it as a MA? I wonder....

 

Oh, wow! That sparring group sounds fun! hehe, even if they were far more skilled. Did you learn some good stuff from your time with them? Ah yes, a teacher who is helping you progress..not just enjoying woopin your buttocks.

 

SloppyZhang does seem to be dedicated and thorough. That would make a big difference, I feel.

 

My own experience has shown me that there is something...mysterious, slips thru your fingers when you try to grasp it, that is expressed and shared while learning from my teacher. It takes awhile and sometimes I glimpse/ grasp a tiny thread of what is being expressed...I still put allot of time and effort into books and media learnings to progress between sessions with my teacher. Combination!

 

OldGreen- I agree, meditation and some other things are easier to learn thru media methods. Taiji and Bagua...Even QiGong forms, more difficult. haha.

 

You just cant get around hard work. You put the effort in and you will get somewhere...you wont be lost, you will be right where you walked. Wherever that is.

 

Peace.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Well you start off light, and work up the whacking harder and harder as people get conditioned and experienced. I've ended up with a broken foot and 3 torn ligaments from over ambitious young guys with (5-7 times the experience as myself) in classes!

 

How hard everyone hits usually should be decided upon by the two people sparring together... in my opinion. You want to push each other a little more each time, but not overdo it, or under do it. I've sparred with folks where I could hit them 100% if I wanted, and other folks where I have to keep it down to 10% (which is pretty amazing considering I'm female and still newbie).

 

The only martial arts classes I've seen without sparring are the wushu ones, wushu taichi forms and wushu Bagua forms. Some folks do wait until the student has 2-3 years in first though, and just focuses on apps before that, or some even wait the 2-3 years before apps so you get a good solid foundation.

 

I've always found it really interesting how circle walking (Bagua's main practice) actually works like an entire iron body exercise! I have no idea what's up with that (I'll have to ask), but it's pretty neat. I've noticed it both with myself and the two folks I'm teaching. I'm sure each martial arts style has their own version of this.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Yup, definitely a good conversation, and great points from Uroboros and BaguaKicksAss.

 

All in all, it does depend on the student and on the group. A great student in a shitty group (or no group) will do well through their own merits and dedication, not because of what they learned in a group. A shitty student in a great group may still make progress in spite of their shitty ness.

 

If a teacher has some parts to teach, then yeah, I say learn what you can from them. But it's important that the teacher understands where they are. All of Frantzis' senior instructors, and even the non-senior instructors, are all really nice, really approachable, and not only do they know their shit, but they know what they don't know. They know when their teaching is only a PORTION of the full teaching, and if you ask a question they don't know, they don't bullshit you. They say "I don't know."

 

With regards to sparring and things like that, yeah, it's about keeping it real, and everybody should keep it real.

 

For Frantzis' material, you can tell if someone is opening or closing, bending and stretching, lengthening, etc. Because you can see it in their body. If anyone doubts a senior instructor's (or Bruce's skill), well, just take a look at how they move, and see if you can move the same way. Yeah, so there you go.

 

Same way with sparring. When I learned karate, a group of guys did their own sparring outside of class because the sparring in class was too light. No one fights that way!

 

Now internal martial arts are a bit different, because they are working on different principles. So as the saying goes, it might take 10 years before you let the Tai Chi student step outside the door. Because not only do you have to retrain a lifetime of habits (away from using muscular strain as your default), but you also have to train up the new habits (softness, yielding, structure, etc etc etc) So you basically have to have a new lifetime of training before you're really able to do proper applied Tai Chi.

 

Otherwise, in the best case scenario you rely on previous habits (muscular strain) and win the fight, or you are completely annihilated. Which can mean anything from utter humiliation to death.

Edited July 9, 2013 by Sloppy Zhang

[BaguaKicksAss]

Good points about specific training to not muscle through it. I've been taught this through apps and sparring to some degree, which is interesting. We were corrected anytime we would not apply the principals in sparring.

 

Yes there are a few awesome in person seminars (though Bruce is not in my budget!) There are also the Yin Bagua folks, whom I have heard many great things about. The classes aren't too large, and the prices are very good. Not my path personally, but I have met some people who train with them; pretty awesome. Which reminds me of Andrew Nugent-Heads vids, if someone doesn't have an in person teacher, top notch stuff. Oh hell even if you do have a teacher .

 

Sloppy Zhang, I have to say I feel we are both very fortunate we get to travel and train with the exact teacher we wish to . Actually we both have backup vids during the none in person times as well lol.