Tai Chi 24 Forms

[Mudfoot]

Would it not be a good advice to a beginner to check Any DVD out and get started with the training? The master of your dreams will probably not engage personally in an unknown beginner anyway. Must it be all or nothing?

[ChiDragon]

If you can follow the movements of the forms from the DVD, then it is fine. However, even though, the master of your dreams will probably not engage personally in an unknown beginner anyway; but at least you will have some close attention to correct your forms. As a beginner, you don't need to know too much theory but just learn the forms. Then, you practice by repeating the forms over and over until the forms become a natural reflex to you.

[Mudfoot]

The original Taijiquan had no set sequences of movements.

 

With this you are referring to the 13 postures?

But learning them without pinning them to a form, isn't that sort of difficult?

 

Since the sequence is traceable back to Tong Bei www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=807 you are speaking of an original that existed before it was known as taijiquan.

[doc benway]

With this you are referring to the 13 postures?

But learning them without pinning them to a form, isn't that sort of difficult?

 

Since the sequence is traceable back to Tong Bei www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=807 you are speaking of an original that existed before it was known as taijiquan.

Yes - according to the classics and my teacher, Taijiquan seems to have its roots in the 13 postures and perhaps these martial techniques were married to methods of qigong and neigong to eventually birth what we know as modern schools of Taijiquan.

 

Learning the 13 postures without pinning them to the form is no different that pinning them to the form.

You either learn the posture or not. If anything, instead of focusing on remembering a long (and unbalanced) series of movements, you could learn each posture individually and fully (on both sides) before moving on to the next.

This would be the more martial way to do it and would sacrifice some of the benefits of the qigong aspect of the form. It would also be boring for many modern practitioners and would probably result in low retention. That wasn't an issue when martial arts were needed for martial purposes.

 

I don't put too much credibility in detailed, early historical considerations because so much of it is conjecture, heresay, exaggeration, and fluff. It's hard to know exactly when the forms and modern name were codified. Nevertheless, it seems fairly likely to me from the classics that the postures were practiced long before any forms, whatever name we choose to apply.

[Mudfoot]

Depends on how you interprete "the 13 postures". If they are interpretated as five ways to move (footwork) and eight ways to manifest/manipulate qi, then you need a form to practice these things in.

 

But yes, doing it like Hsing-I would be easier to learn.

Then "form" would be individual movements, not a sequence.

The term used is still form.

Sorry, but we were talking about two different things here, and I agree with your point.

[doc benway]

I agree, the word form can be applied to an individual movement, eg. peng.

It can also be applied to a combination of movements.

In general, I mean sequential combination of postures when I say form and I use the word posture to refer to an individual technique, eg. peng or advance step. This is how I try to distinguish between the two for clarity.

 

If you know something of Xingyiquan training, you have experienced how each of the 5 elements and 12 animals (depending on your style) are isolated "forms" that are drilled individually. There are then trained with partners, in combinations, with different footwork patterns, etc... Martial Taijiquan training is exactly the same. The form has it's place and purpose but is a very small part of the martial training method. You see that explicitly in Xingyiquan training because it has retained the martial elements in the hands of most teachers. It is the opposite in Taijiquan as most teachers have either abandoned or never received the martial training methods.

Edited June 10, 2013 by steve

[Mudfoot]

Form-posture-stance. Yeah, terminology differs, and for those of us that are non-english speaking to begin with, it gets complicated.

 

Although we are now leaving the topic of this thread:

The progress as I understand it, varying between teachers obviously.

 

Xing-Yi: Santi - five elements - linking form - 12 animals. Going from understanding the parts to practicing change.

Taijiquan: Long form - standing in individual postures. Going from getting a feel for the whole and practicing change to understanding the parts.

So, many practicing taiji never get to the standing in individual postures. And yes, popularizing taiji equals watering it down. Sad but true.

 

And I have fond but painful memories of martial taijiquan training methods.

[doc benway]

Form-posture-stance. Yeah, terminology differs, and for those of us that are non-english speaking to begin with, it gets complicated.

 

Although we are now leaving the topic of this thread:

The progress as I understand it, varying between teachers obviously.

 

Xing-Yi: Santi - five elements - linking form - 12 animals. Going from understanding the parts to practicing change.

Taijiquan: Long form - standing in individual postures. Going from getting a feel for the whole and practicing change to understanding the parts.

So, many practicing taiji never get to the standing in individual postures. And yes, popularizing taiji equals watering it down. Sad but true.

 

And I have fond but painful memories of martial taijiquan training methods.

Are you practicing Bagua currently, Mudfoot?

[Mudfoot]

Are you practicing Bagua currently, Mudfoot?

 

That does not really fit into this thread.

But if you want to know, there's a bar in the lobby. I will be sitting there on an off, sipping on a Weston.

[hydrogen]

Depends on how you interprete "the 13 postures". If they are interpretated as five ways to move (footwork) and eight ways to manifest/manipulate qi, then you need a form to practice these things in.

 

I'm very interested in this 13 postures.

 

I started a new thread http://thetaobums.com/topic/28695-tai-chi-13-postures-question/

 

Could you elaborate more please there?

 

Thanks.

 

Sorry for the interuption.