free will is BS

[hydrogen]

Hehehe. I see the Buddhist influences are taking control of you. Don't give in to those nihilistic thoughts!

 

Minor correction.

 

Buddism is the "middle way", it's never nihilistic. Please don't spread wrong impression of buddhism. It's not cool.

 

From wikipedia.

Middle Way

Main article: Middle Way

An important guiding principle of Buddhist practice is the Middle Way (or Middle Path), which is said to have been discovered by Gautama Buddha prior to his enlightenment. The Middle Way has several definitions:

1. The practice of non-extremism: a path of moderation away from the extremes of self-indulgence and self-mortification;
2. The middle ground between certain metaphysical views (for example, that things ultimately either do or do not exist);^[48]
3. An explanation of Nirvana (perfect enlightenment), a state wherein it becomes clear that all dualities apparent in the world are delusory (see Seongcheol);
4. Another term for emptiness, the ultimate nature of all phenomena (in the Mahayana branch), a lack of inherent existence, which avoids the extremes of permanence and nihilism or inherent existence and nothingness.

[silent thunder]

its funny

 

but when i was browsing tao bum, an idea just struck me

 

if there is only one truth which is Tao

 

and even our identity the thing called self is illusion than this automatically makes anything related to that identity also an illusion

 

so our will which we attach to our identity that we are special and we have will to choose is also an illusion

 

just like our identity is mix and match of our thoughts and beliefs

 

our will is also mix and match of influences from other sources and all

 

This concept has been knocking around in me for a while now as well.

Since choice is related to thought and thought is rooted in illusion, they must be transcended.

 

I'm reminded of the images of Shiva, holding the recently decapitated head of Vishnu in one of her hands.

 

In order to transcend thought realms and have the experience of the higher realms, I must kill any image of a god I hold in order to move past it because, in the end, it's just another thought.

[Maddie]

its funny

 

but when i was browsing tao bum, an idea just struck me

 

if there is only one truth which is Tao

 

and even our identity the thing called self is illusion than this automatically makes anything related to that identity also an illusion

 

so our will which we attach to our identity that we are special and we have will to choose is also an illusion

 

just like our identity is mix and match of our thoughts and beliefs

 

our will is also mix and match of influences from other sources and all

 

You had a very profound insight, that's great! Like Ajahn Brahm says all the time about figuring out not only what you know but finding out who is the knower lol.

[silent thunder]

While I won't disagree with you, I would suggest that until we test our limits we never truely know how much power we really have. Yes, doing the testing takes a lot of work and produces many failures. If a person fears failure they won't do the testing.

Absolutely. No fear. Alignment in the moment, which frees energy to flow.

 

I have found my perception on choice to be empowering.

Much the way I find there is deep abiding power in the act of surrender.

 

Not surrender as in giving up and just becoming a limp fish with no care, passion or drive.

A surrender that is a cognitive acceptance of conditions as they are, that I feel, allows more clarity in the now and brings awareness about conditions so I can maximize what influence I do possess in the moment, when not consumed by how I should be changing the past, or warping things for the future. Hope that makes sense, I'm still waking up here.

 

There is an empowering quality to surrender that leaves an inner freedom that shines.

[hydrogen]

And fuxk Lao Tzu,...right? So why are you here?

 

It'd be hard since Lao Tzu is a just fictional character. or he's hiding in some secret location if he indeed exists.

 

I'm here to learn from knowledgeable members like you though you don't only believe in "Gnow".

 

In one sense all of my belief/thoughts/knowledge is 100% true to me. In another sense, a certain percentage are false though I don't which part is false and I don't know the percentage.

 

I need a "mirror" to inspect my own thought. This forum is an excellent place to do that.

[silent thunder]

It'd be hard since Lao Tzu is a just fictional character. or he's hiding in some secret location if he indeed exists.

 

I'm here to learn from knowledgeable members like you though you don't only believe in "Gnow".

 

In one sense all of my belief/thoughts/knowledge is 100% true to me. In another sense, a certain percentage are false though I don't which part is false and I don't know the percentage.

 

I need a "mirror" to inspect my own thought. This forum is an excellent place to do that.

Yea this place is an awesome mirror.

 

Robert Anton Wilson really blew my head open to the relevance of this.

I, for many years, operated on the illusion that I see the world as it is and interpret it accurately.

[manitou]

I wholly disgree. Judging, as in neti-neti, is how the false is recognized. As a famous New age Purveyor correctly said,

"we need to draw our attention to what is false in us, for unless we learn to recognize the false as the false, there can be no lasting transformation, and you will always be drawn back into illusion, for that is how the false perpetuates itself"

 

I totally understand what you are saying here. As to going within and purging the undesirable (the judgment of other people and other situations) this must be done with judgment. No argument here. I spent years doing this. I judged myself relentlessly, then went back and made amends to everyone I could remember that I had ever harmed. I judge my own actions to this day; this is referred to as 'tracking' ones' self within a shamanic sense.

 

No, I'm speaking of a different type of judgment. I think we're saying the same thing on two different sides of the coin, Marco. I had to judge myself in order to gain the ability to not judge others.

 

This truly can be done. It often involves changing one's thoughts the moment after they've been thought. This is how I have made my corrections over the years; to gain control over the thoughts I desire and to eliminate the ones I don't want, the judgmental ones.

 

I must remember always that there is no person on the face of the earth that is not contained within me. Whether that person has lived in the past, lives now, or lives in the future. It's all here and now, and We are It. To try and truly love every person we come across, even a horrific criminal, is to have compassion as large as the sky.

Edited May 31, 2013 by manitou

[thelerner]

Seems to me, choice is minimal. There is some, but, to me, it exists within powerful conditions that shape it.

So powerful that, to me, it seems that the apparent power of individual choice is negligible.

 

Choice and free will, to me, seems to suggest power. The power to 'do something'. Make a decision and follow it out.

But what are the underlying conditions that support and shape any decision? This to me holds the key to ferreting out how much I really choose anything.

I like this. Choice and free will as power. We're inevitably shaped by what has come before, whether we agree to it mindlessly and even when we rebel. We're still playing according to that tune.

 

Before choice comes knowledge. Who are we really? How should we view the world? Accumulate some knowledge, discipline and wisdom; choose a path and walk it.

[Marblehead]

Buddism is the "middle way", it's never nihilistic. Please don't spread wrong impression of buddhism. It's not cool.

You are correct in what you say but I will defend myself for saying what I did because I have spoken with some Buddhist (not all by any means) who practice their Buddhism in a nihilistic manner.

 

But then, I sometimes get playful and try to ruffle the feathers of my fellow Buddhists. One should not take me or life too seriously.

[silent thunder]

Interesting side note for me: Resistance and Surrender.

I find that my most unfortunate decisions come when I am resisting the way conditions are in the now. The act of resistance cuts me off to the flow of information that underlies and supports the process.

 

When I make decisions from a perspective of resistance to current conditions; (or more accurately), my refusal to accept the way things are instead of how I wish they were, or how I feel they should be, is a key factor as well.

 

Choices made from a position of resistance seem to do just that, magnify the resistance and cause more dis-ease.

When I am able to surrender (not give up), to the acceptance of conditions in the now, I feel instinctively that the choice that flows through me in these moments is more in accord with Tao.

 

In old Norse Cosmology, this is the concept of 'Right Action' and it applies to the concept of a River of Fate. This is a bit OT, but it relates I think so bear with me as I work this out.

 

Fate and Right Action are linked in this cosmology. In this view, my fate is like a river. This river is comprised of the conditions of my life, over which I exert little to no control, where I'm born, what the family energy is like (nurturing or aggressive etc) is there war, famine or abundance.

 

The flow of my life is much like a river of conditions which will carry me down stream whether I fight or not. How I navigate, (the choices I appear to make), will exert some influence, but it's akin to swimming against the current or with it.

 

This surrender I'm talking about is akin to a deep trust in the Tao that releases all resistance to the conditions of the now and I feel allows me to tap into more a more powerful flow of information on the underlying levels (some call it intuition, or just good judgement). I think the lack of resistance to the flow of the moment, opens meridians allowing 'Right Action' or 'Good Judgement' to flow through me.

[Marblehead]

Much the way I find there is deep abiding power in the act of surrender.

 

Not surrender as in giving up and just becoming a limp fish with no care, passion or drive.

A surrender that is a cognitive acceptance of conditions as they are, that I feel, allows more clarity in the now and brings awareness about conditions so I can maximize what influence I do possess in the moment, when not consumed by how I should be changing the past, or warping things for the future. Hope that makes sense, I'm still waking up here.

 

There is an empowering quality to surrender that leaves an inner freedom that shines.

I normally protest against the concept of surrender because the way it is generally used is unacceptable to me. Your usage of the concept here is fully acceptable to me. I really like the way you worked that out in words.

[Vmarco]

No, I'm speaking of a different type of judgment. I think we're saying the same thing on two different sides of the coin, Marco. I had to judge myself in order to gain the ability to not judge others.

 

I must remember always that there is no person on the face of the earth that is not contained within me. Whether that person has lived in the past, lives now, or lives in the future. It's all here and now, and We are It. To try and truly love every person we come across, even a horrific criminal, is to have compassion as large as the sky.

 

I recall (dozens of years ago) having a conversation with a few folks on a nude beach,...after several minutes, one of them mentioned something about nudity, and I realized we were all naked. The point being (although a stretch), when I visit with people, for a few seconds or a few hours, I don't engage the garments, ie., beliefs, they chose to wear, but the conscious they had before they were born. I don't care if they're fat in the eyes of society,...nor do I really want to discuss their fattness. I know an 85 pound gal that thinks she's fat, and is constantly dieting.

 

I like talking about the instant. Ever hear Dolano say, "where is it in the instant?" One of my favorite Youtubes.

[silent thunder]

I normally protest against the concept of surrender because the way it is generally used is unacceptable to me. Your usage of the concept here is fully acceptable to me. I really like the way you worked that out in words.

Thanks Marble! That means a lot coming from you.

 

I really wrestled with the concept of surrender and it kicked my head's ass for a long time.

 

I'm reminded of how we used to float down the Apple River in Wisconsin as kids in tubes. It was about a 4-5 hour trip and ended in some fun rapids. It was effortless, unless we wanted to avoid something, or were drawn to something else. In those cases, we'd paddle our asses off to get to the goal, but otherwise, we just went with the flow.

 

On one level it's semantics, but semantics are sometimes key for me as they relate to how something is defined, which is intrinsically related to how something is perceived. When I can find this less personal meaning of surrender: not as a form of 'fuck it I don't care what happens' but rather 'this is the flow of this moment', my natural place in the river becomes apparent and the power of it opens like a flower.

 

Energy pathways open up with the breath of surrender and the flow of information from source is wide, allowing for 'good instinct', 'strong intuition' or 'good judgement' to kick in and make apparent the wide path, easily followed.

[Everything]

 

Most try to accumulate knowledge as if it had some real purpose,...other than sustaining the ego. I like this following quote"

 

 

Every thought that provides you with an identity,

be it positive or negative, is a fragment of the ego

or mind-made sense of self. Most are under the

impression that if enough thoughts are accumulated,

these can be pieced together resulting is selfknowledge.

This approach is purely psychological.

Just as gathering enough leaves can never produce a

tree, gathering thoughts will never produce anything

more than a self-aware ego.

 

http://enterthenew.com/Thoughts_to_Stop_Thinking.pdf

Now leave the thought of leaving thoughts and you shall enter the thought of entering thoughts. Edited June 1, 2013 by Everything

[DragonsNectar69k]

Now leave the thought of leaving thoughts and you shall enter the thought of entering thoughts.

Every thought that provides you with an identity,

be it positive or negative, is a fragment of the ego

or mind-made sense of self. Most are under the

impression that if enough thoughts are accumulated,

these can be pieced together resulting is selfknowledge.

This approach is purely psychological.

Just as gathering enough leaves can never produce a

tree, gathering thoughts will never produce anything

more than a self-aware ego.

 

HAHHAHA! No sh*t! Very true! This idea of abandoning the ego is a bit pointless at times though. I can understand when some one is NOT willing to let go of their 'position' of what they think is true, there are well invested in their ego. The mind can be situated in several manors, decorated with various religious thoughts and traditions. People do what they have to do to survive. The ego will tell you, that you HAVE TO SURVIVE, you have to PLAY THE GAME. I believe I have died at least once and came back to my body to realize that I am more than my physical body it seems.

 

But it never occurs to some that, were they ever truly aware and conscious of their transition here to earth? Who or what is taking care of the souls that are transitioning between this life and the next? I've seen dis-incarnate souls as well in the astral. My ego would like to know what man truly is, so it can manipulate and contort such power and knowledge to 'escape' realization. Maybe that is why we don't truly know what we are TRULY made of and how.. I would create a space ship made of light and I would leave Earth. Now I am just ranting, thank you ego. Thank you for giving me a sense of purpose. I don't know WHAT are you are ego or why you even exist, but I am still grateful for your 'existence'. Maybe that is all that matters?

[三江源]

Who or what is taking care of the souls that are transitioning between this life and the next?

Partly was under the impression - from taoist studies - that we are on our own in this situation, and that the best we could hope for would be to maintain some kind of integrity of our parts so that we could be even a little aware

[manitou]

Who or what is taking care of the souls that are transitioning between this life and the next?

 

Sometimes I think the sun is the containment of souls. But I can get pretty far out there.

Edited June 1, 2013 by manitou

[三江源]

Sometimes I think the sun is the containment of souls. But I can get pretty far out there.

Are you able to say what gives you this sense, manitou?

 

Solar intelligence, perhaps!

 

Is sun pure yang. It must be. Perhaps that means Sun is God.

[Marblehead]

Is sun pure yang. It must be. Perhaps that means Sun is God.

That's very Egyptian of you.

[三江源]

That's very Egyptian of you.

Thanks.

 

Still working on getting the walking right.

[Marblehead]

Thanks.

 

Still working on getting the walking right.

Well, if I thought I had everything right I wouldn't even be here.

[manitou]

Are you able to say what gives you this sense, manitou?

 

Solar intelligence, perhaps!

 

Is sun pure yang. It must be. Perhaps that means Sun is God.

 

I knew an enlightened old man who spent most of his hours in spiritual libraries, etc. I ran into him once by chance as he was looking up from a heady scripture of some sort and just at that moment he had the most amazed look on his face. He looked up at me and said "Do you know there are souls in the sun?" This old fellow wasn't the fool-around type, he really had a realization at that moment.

 

I've never understood what that meant, but there was a certain resonance in his words that I couldn't deny. This was perhaps 25 years ago, Herb is long gone, I'm sure. At the bottom of my soul has always dwelt this odd statement from Herb that I never cut loose, for some reason.

 

The more I dwell in the metaphysics and mergers of paths, the more things seem to point to what he is saying. Perhaps the sun signifies the original Idea; a piece of the sun lies at the center of the earth too. A piece of the sun seems to be ignited inside my soul as well, which is synonymous with kundalini awakening.

 

The one time Joe and I experienced an incredible tantric event it seemed that we had a shared experience within the sun, or some place equally as glorious, golden, warm, and a place where there is no passage of time. It was the closest thing to feeling like we were 'in' the sun that you can imagine.

 

So the more my brain struggles with Herb's odd words (that won't go away!) I just try to keep my mind open about it. Perhaps there is a 'physical counterpart' to the resting place of souls and it happens to be the sun.

 

I'm just sayin', lol.

[Vmarco]

I knew an enlightened old man who spent most of his hours in spiritual libraries, etc. I ran into him once by chance as he was looking up from a heady scripture of some sort and just at that moment he had the most amazed look on his face. He looked up at me and said "Do you know there are souls in the sun?" This old fellow wasn't the fool-around type, he really had a realization at that moment.

 

I've never understood what that meant, but there was a certain resonance in his words that I couldn't deny. This was perhaps 25 years ago, Herb is long gone, I'm sure. At the bottom of my soul has always dwelt this odd statement from Herb that I never cut loose, for some reason.

 

 

 

Reminded of a presentation I gave to the NCGR on Oct 1, 2008,...it began like this:

 

 

We all know that splitting an atom releases light,...matter into light. In 1995, at Stanford University, physicists reversed that process and made two particles of matter by supercharging a trillion-watt laser through a linear accelerator,...light into matter. Form, which is empty space that appears filled, is compressed, multiplied, centripetal particles of light. Empty space which appears unfilled, is expanded, divided, centrafugal waves of light.

 

In a talk given to the Astrologer's Guild of America, called The Electric Nature of the Universe (June 1936), Walter Russell said, "Astrologers are asked: What relationship can people and planets have with each other? What possible relation can a planet so far away as Neptune have to do with an emotion occurring within us, or a decision which we make for ourselves? How can this far planet affect our lives?

 

Neptune (he said) is not so very far away from us. It is part of our own solar system. The universe is made up of interlocking electric systems within each other. Every part of every system is directly connected with every other system. Relatively, the planets are as close together in the solar system as are the parts of any atomic system. Every microscopic electron in every star and galaxy is connected electrically by an intercommunicating flux. There are no two separate things in the universe. Everything in the universe is indissolubly tied to every other thing.

 

The whole universe is just a series of quantitative material records of universe thought, placed there in potential relations one with another, in systems within systems. They have been gathered together in what we call "inanimate nature" or "inanimate life". There is no inanimate life in the universe. Everything in the universe lives. Everything in the universe breathes the breath of life and pulses with the universe, each in its own potential and its own rhythm.

 

Every person born into a a material form has a rhythm of their own which is normal to them and them only. Each person's rhythm is determined at their birth moment. At that moment the countless billions of electric vibrations of the sun and all its planets are setting a rhythmic gauge upon the life of everyone who comes into material existence. Each person's rhythmic measure has as automatic an effect upon him as the pressing of any electric button has upon a bell. It is automatic. We cannot help it.

 

Let us get to the root of the effect upon our emotions and lives which the masses of material matter which we call "planets" can cause. How can Jupiter or Neptune have any effect upon one's life or emotions? Many people think it is ridiculous but, on the contrary, it is the truest of truths. The reason is that planets are huge masses of light in motion, for all masses are light, even though they are not exhibiting a perceived incandescence. Any change of rhythm anywhere affects the whole electrodynamic universe."

[silent thunder]

Let us get to the root of the effect upon our emotions and lives which the masses of material matter which we call "planets" can cause. How can Jupiter or Neptune have any effect upon one's life or emotions? Many people think it is ridiculous but, on the contrary, it is the truest of truths. The reason is that planets are huge masses of light in motion, for all masses are light, even though they are not exhibiting a perceived incandescence. Any change of rhythm anywhere affects the whole electrodynamic universe."

 

Reminds me of an article regarding planets in our system and how they are giving off more light than was being reflected by the sun. Our own bodies are luminous, bio-photons are cascading off of our bodies every moment. So we create light in our process.

 

Hah... and now Yoda pops into my head

"Luminous beings are we... not this crude matter."

 

I'd have to disagree on semantics with yoda though, matter is light, just another variation in frequency.

[三江源]

I recall MIchael Winn asking, if the Sun is so hot, why is the sky so cold? I think he said that our bodies heat up in response to the sun, and plants grow in response to the sun, but it isnt actually hot, at all, we just experience it that way.

 

If matter, ie our bodies, are frozen light, then perhaps as we melt out of matter, ( ie die or transmute) we return to light and therefore to the sun.

 

wther we are sun light or starlight.. idk!