free will is BS

[Marblehead]

Okay, Mr. Marbles. I'm gonna get all thinkey on your a**.

 

We don't have free will - we are all the same entity. The entity thinks and manifests itself but it has to express itself in this particular sense through these darn filters we call a human brain and a human mouth.. We just think we think. After the internal channels have been cleared, the thinking gets straighter without having to go through all the contortions of character disorders. The manifestation is at the center of everything; we are its method of communication with itself, its 'idea' being expressed. Whatever the heck that idea is. Probably ultimate love, I would guess.

 

And I think that VMarco had his finger on it when he posted above about the seeming reality of an object - but under further examination the particles get further and further apart, until at last we have nothing but Thought. Thought. That's all we are, anything is. One big honkin' idea.

Yep, you got all thinky on me. Hehehe.

 

Yes, I understand that this is where you are on your path at this point in time. And this is a perfect example of why I disagree with you; you are on a much different path than I am on. I'm not saying that it is a wrong path - I am just saying that it would be a wrong path for me.

 

And this is the bottom line - we all are individual items of the Ten Thousand Things. Each of us doing our own thing. But true, we all are expressions of Tao. But different expressions for sure.

 

And yes, I know that you are much more aligned with Vmarco's path right now than you are of my path. That's okay too. As long as you are being true to your Self. We all have our goals, yes, even I have my goals, and if we think the path we are currently travelling is the 'right' path then it is all good. But we must remember, not everyone is where we are (we are individual expressions of Tao) so not everyone would find your or my path useful. And that's the beauty of free will - we can chose which path we are going to travel for a while. Along the way we might find a more attractive path and decide to follow it. Free will, Baby!

[Marblehead]

No,...there is consciousness in the Present,...but a consciousness beyond the lower 6. We all have this consciousness,...this 7th and 8th consciousness,...but for most, that level of consciousness is obscured by the senses and thinking. Remember,...Buddha walked around for some 40 years at a level of consciousness beyond the 6 senses (seeing, smelling, hearing, tasting, touching, and thinking).

Yeah, you take things apart much more than I do. For me, if it feels good I just do it, I don't spend many hours wondering why it feels good.

[Marblehead]

Lao Tzu said, "Do you think you can clear your mind by sitting constantly in silent meditation? This makes your mind narrow, not clear."

Lao Tzu didn't say that. Hehehe.

 

But I do agree with the thought you present here. Meditation is useless if one has already attained the state of "Wu Wei". (No, I'm not always there. But I do get to taste it now and again.)

Edited June 8, 2013 by Marblehead

[manitou]

Yep, you got all thinky on me. Hehehe.

 

Yes, I understand that this is where you are on your path at this point in time. And this is a perfect example of why I disagree with you; you are on a much different path than I am on. I'm not saying that it is a wrong path - I am just saying that it would be a wrong path for me.

 

And this is the bottom line - we all are individual items of the Ten Thousand Things. Each of us doing our own thing. But true, we all are expressions of Tao. But different expressions for sure.

 

And yes, I know that you are much more aligned with Vmarco's path right now than you are of my path. That's okay too. As long as you are being true to your Self. We all have our goals, yes, even I have my goals, and if we think the path we are currently travelling is the 'right' path then it is all good. But we must remember, not everyone is where we are (we are individual expressions of Tao) so not everyone would find your or my path useful. And that's the beauty of free will - we can chose which path we are going to travel for a while. Along the way we might find a more attractive path and decide to follow it. Free will, Baby!

 

I've read an awful lot of masters and my path seems to have aligned with theirs. Have you found a master yet who maintains there is nothing but the physical? Reversion to the One.

Edited June 8, 2013 by manitou

[manitou]

No,...(you're going to hate this)...the threshold of being Present is Non-Meditation.

 

"The practice of meditation is represented by the three monkeys, who cover their eyes, ears and mouths so as to avoid the phenomenal world. The practice of non-meditation is ceasing to be the see-er, hearer or speaker while eyes, ears and mouths are fulfilling their function in daily life." - Wei Wu Wei

 

Lao Tzu said, "Do you think you can clear your mind by sitting constantly in silent meditation? This makes your mind narrow, not clear."

 

"The state of non-meditation is born in the heart...." Jigme Lingpa

 

"We teach meditation, or quieting the mind, because it is really easier to teach you to have no thoughts, than to teach you to have pure, positive thought. We would rather you be in a state of appreciation, than in a state of meditation, because in appreciation you uncover Source." Esther Hicks

 

I couldn't hate anything you said if you shoved it down my throat, V. Okay, the monkeys are avoiding the phenomenal. This is how the monkeys learn to quiet their minds. If there are streams of thoughts going through the monkey mind, being in the present isn't possible. It is by learning to quiet the mind that it is possible to go through the day with NO judgment, optimally. Quieting the mind is essential to No Judgment and letting the phenomena appear and disappear around us, wherever we are. I think one must come after the other.

[Marblehead]

I've read an awful lot of masters and my path seems to have aligned with theirs. Have you found a master yet who maintains there is nothing but the physical? Reversion to the One.

Nietzsche?

[Marblehead]

It is by learning to quiet the mind that it is possible to go through the day with NO judgment, optimally. Quieting the mind is essential to No Judgment and letting the phenomena appear and disappear around us, wherever we are. I think one must come after the other.

Good! I can agree with you (for a change, Hehehe).

 

However, if we are doing things with intent we better be awake, aware and making judgement calls or we will screw everything up.

[Stosh]

That people can have a meditative experience or non-experience while eyes are open or closed or while walking around or in a moment that everyone else is missing out on....fine

So what?

Really !

I am asking.

Share this wisdom.

SO WHAT?

In so many threads folks testify about the experience,

they say it changes their worldview

So what.....it still has no significance any greater or lesser than other

experience because it has no contex either.

Which is why one 'returns from it' and still chops wood.

You still chop wood.

[Marblehead]

And you still have to carry water too.

 

I was cutting wood this morning. (For the pond work project.)

[Apech]

And you still have to carry water too.

 

I was cutting wood this morning. (For the pond work project.)

 

 

You see that's where you're going wrong ... you need water for a pond. Come on concentrate!.

[manitou]

Nietzsche?

Where does he end up?

 

And to do things with intent doesn't mean to bamboozle our will through the phenomena. To align instead with the Tao before doing something with intent is the essence of wu-wei. Let it happen rather than make it happen; to keep the concept of Love at the center of our actions.

 

IMO, there is a difference between walking The Way and talking The Way. This very subject we're hitting on right now is the crux of it. To talk the Way and not walk it makes one a hobbyist. To walk The Way is to head toward adeptness.

 

Does Nietzsche end up at the 10,000 or at the One?

Edited June 8, 2013 by manitou

[Marblehead]

You see that's where you're going wrong ... you need water for a pond. Come on concentrate!.

Hehehe. Yes, there is water "in" the ponds. What I am working on is the cover for the complex.

 

And speaking of water, a couple days ago I got a very nice quanty of rain water. In fact, everything over-flowed. But at least now I have two weeks of rain water for the ponds and the gardens without needing to use any utility water. Saves me lots of money. And it is more eco friendly.

[Marblehead]

Where does he end up?

Dead, just like every one who has ever lived, is living now, and will ever live in the future.

[manitou]

That people can have a meditative experience or non-experience while eyes are open or closed or while walking around or in a moment that everyone else is missing out on....fine So what? Really ! I am asking. Share this wisdom. SO WHAT? In so many threads folks testify about the experience, they say it changes their worldview So what.....it still has no significance any greater or lesser than other experience because it has no contex either. Which is why one 'returns from it' and still chops wood. You still chop wood.

 

 

I can only speak for my experience. I could be all wet, Marbles will second that

 

When one reaches a certain point, the higher self merges with the lower self. It is my experience that we all share the same 'higher self'. You can feel it, physically actually, when the merger occurs. You find that your thoughts are not on the mundane during the day - and if they are, they are merged with Oneness and love, and the recognition that everyone is One. To look into the pupils of another is to look into the pupils of God, for lack of a better term. You are the same as he, and the only thing that differentiates you is what continent you were born on, what kind of input was hammered into you as a child; and a myriad of other differentiators like schooling, etc.

 

My guess is that Buddha also felt some sensation via senses; even if it was only on the soles of his feet or his bum when he sat down. I think this concept is a question of degree. After all, we are still in this ****** body.

[manitou]

Dead, just like every one who has ever lived, is living now, and will ever live in the future.

 

LOL, you darling thing. So that being the case, why bother with philosophy? the cells of the body are dead but the current of life that moved through the cells for 70 years is not dead. It's elsewhere.

Edited June 8, 2013 by manitou

[Marblehead]

And to do things with intent doesn't mean to bamboozle our will through the phenomena. To align instead with the Tao before doing something with intent is the essence of wu-wei. Let it happen rather than make it happen; to keep the concept of Love at the center of our actions.

Agreed. I'm not sure about the love part though. Hehehe.

 

But then too there are times when we must react whether or not we are in the state of wu wei. But this too can be a natural thing so it's not bad, as such.

 

IMO, there is a difference between walking The Way and talking The Way. This very subject we're hitting on right now is the crux of it. To talk the Way and not walk it makes one a hobbyist. To walk The Way is to head toward adeptness.

I do my best to walk my talk. Sure, sometimes I stumble. But then, I have never professed to be perfect. Good?, yes, you can bet on that. But no where close to perfect, or being a master or expert.

 

And I agree with you, this is where the bottom line is: Are we doing our best to walk our talk?

 

Does Nietzsche end up at the 10,000 or at the One?

Hard question to respond to. We all will return to the One. But let's remember, there is a lot of recycling going on. Bugs and worms will eat my body after I die. They will poop and make fertilizer for the flowers. Some will get eaten by the birds and will fly free in the sky. But the birds too will poop providing more food for the flowers. I suppose we can say that we will end up being either poop or flowers based on the kind of life we lived.

[Marblehead]

LOL, you darling thing. So that being the case, why bother with philosophy? the cells of the body are dead but the current of life that moved through the cells for 70 years is not dead. It's elsewhere.

Hehehe. That's asking for the purpose of life. That's a different thread.

[manitou]

Actually, Marbles, I'm in full agreement to the idea that God Is Dead. I fully agree with your Mr. N. But I think God is Dead in the sense that the idea of a god being "out there somewhere" directing traffic for the world is what he was talking about. Perhaps if he had lived a bit longer he may have evolved a bit further and gotten down to the golden fleece. Mr. N. "was" God, if you will - only he wasn't in awareness of it.

[Marblehead]

Interesting response but in line with what I understand about your beliefs.

 

I watched a program about a week ago that put forth the idea that god lives within each and every one of us. It was a multi-religious undertaking that included comments from Buddhists and Taoists as well. And this is in agreement with the Taoist concept that we all are different aspects of Tao.

 

Yes, but Nietzsche, after denying the existance of any gods, was unable to find a replacement, which people need, other than his Superman. Had he not become mentally unstable he may have secured his replacement for god. But life and death are what they are.

[Stosh]

To need a replacement for a godBegs the question

What does one need a god for?

When one notices that they don't need one

They are free to assign meaning and purpose for themselves

Free will !

Yes constrained still by the material properties of it all But freed to work within those constraints

Essentially little demigods

 

 

I thought the ponds of marble gardens were already covered??

The pond is usefull because it is full

Edited June 8, 2013 by Stosh

[Apech]

Interesting response but in line with what I understand about your beliefs.

 

I watched a program about a week ago that put forth the idea that god lives within each and every one of us. It was a multi-religious undertaking that included comments from Buddhists and Taoists as well. And this is in agreement with the Taoist concept that we all are different aspects of Tao.

 

Yes, but Nietzsche, after denying the existance of any gods, was unable to find a replacement, which people need, other than his Superman. Had he not become mentally unstable he may have secured his replacement for god. But life and death are what they are.

 

Do you think his mental instability might have been as a result of his enquiry?

[Marblehead]

To need a replacement for a godBegs the question

What does one need a god for?

When one notices that they don't need one

They are free to assign meaning and purpose for themselves

Free will !

Yes constrained still by the material properties of it all But freed to work within those constraints

Essentially little demigods

Basically, that was the agruement from Albert Camus regarding Nietzsche's death of God. It seems that most people need something greater than themself to have what they think is a full and rewarding life. And besides, don't we have to go somewhere after we die?

 

I agree with you. We all would be little demigods. A wonder onto ourself.

 

I thought the ponds of marble gardens were already covered??

The pond is usefull because it is full

They were. There was one section I didn't do a very good job with when I initially installed it. Water leaks all over the place. I knew a couple weeks after I finished it that I would do it all over again. It is a lot of work so I procrastinated as long as I could dishonestly justify. Almost done, one more day, with the basic structure supports, water guidance, etc then the panels will be going back up. With good fortune maybe three or four more days and I will be done.

 

Yes, ironic, isn't it? That some things are useful when empty and others are useful when full.

[Marblehead]

Do you think his mental instability might have been as a result of his enquiry?

No, he had sex with a woman he should not have had sex with. He died of syphilis. There was no cure for it back then. Even today, if a man waits too long before getting treatment he will die the way Nietzsche did.

 

 

BTW What became "The Will To Power", I think, was to be the beginning of finding the best way to replace God. Fred's sister, a Nazi sympathizer, and a Nazi friend put his notes together and published the notes as his final book. One needs be very careful when reading it.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Marblehead

[Stosh]

That many people think

They need a god

Doesn't make the god real

It is a crutch or a shortcut

To meaning in their life

One can be dedicated to families or nations or work or charity etc.

These things are the things that most people find meaning in

on a day to day basis anyway.

But I admit that it may not be easy to accept ,

especially when it has been so strongly derided as heretical.

Its far easier to go to a church or do some sanctioned thing and then

Abandon the significance in private.

Frankly I don't see much harm in taking the god route

Its just one more abstraction to entertain.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Stosh

[Stosh]

No we don't go anywhere when we die than come from somewhere at conception.

Life thought experience etc are all inherent possibilities on the universal stage .

Assemble the parts correctly and the higher order possibilities are manifest.