confusion w/the tao

[lengthyinnuendo]

I guess my question is if you can play football because the tao states: Block all the passages, Shut all the doors, and to the end of your days you will not be worn out..., or chapter 47, or another verse that states not to compete with anyone and no one will compete with you, or the idea of abandoning your desires in favor of the desires of others. To be desireless essentially. So if that's the case, is the ideal practice of tao to do nothing, no hobbies, arts, music, nothing, to have no interests? It seems that some practitioners of the tao still play music or perform a martial art, and it even mentions that great talents ripen late, but is this a result of taking the interests of others rather than yourself? thanks.

[林愛偉]

I guess my question is if you can play football because the tao states: Block all the passages, Shut all the doors, and to the end of your days you will not be worn out..., or chapter 47, or another verse that states not to compete with anyone and no one will compete with you, or the idea of abandoning your desires in favor of the desires of others. To be desireless essentially. So if that's the case, is the ideal practice of tao to do nothing, no hobbies, arts, music, nothing, to have no interests? It seems that some practitioners of the tao still play music or perform a martial art, and it even mentions that great talents ripen late, but is this a result of taking the interests of others rather than yourself? thanks.

 

 

The Dao does not move, for there is really no Dao. We just say there is for the sake of beings whos mind is moved by their own attachments.

 

Do what you wish, just do not be moved by it. Do not be taken by it. To do nothing is to do just enough, effortlessly without attaching to the conditions and situations. When you smell something, to be taken by it is to move the mind to it... this smells bad, this smells good... from this, the mind begins to associate, daydream, andbrign the rest of the body into the mode for or against the smell. It is similar with the other senses. No desires does not mean nothing will get done. It means to have the most lightest need for worldly things.

 

Peace and Happiness,

Aiwei

[thelerner]

If you were a monk living in a taoist monastery football might be frowned upon. Outside of the monastery the path of tao is pretty wide. Strive to be natural, don't be a slave to your senses.. the rest is commentary

 

Michael

[Yen Hui]

Motives are important in determining what is beneficial or not. This one thing is sure, though: if you cannot

practice the Tao while playing football, then playing football is basically "taboo" for you; at least until when

football stops obstructing your practice of the Tao. Practicing the Tao is not a game, in the sense that it's a

Way of Life, and something we strive to accomplish 24x7. If your goal is the complete realization of innate

human potential, then you have to "play" by the correct rules of engagement.

Edited March 3, 2007 by Yen Hui

[Yen Hui]

... the idea of abandoning your desires in favor of the desires of others. To be desireless essentially.

 

No desires does not mean nothing will get done. It means to have the most lightest need for worldly things.

 

As an after-thought to my previous reply, it occurred to me that posting the following quotes (from Cleary's

translation of the Huainanzi) might cast some light on the matter:-

 

FIVE QUOTES FROM THE MASTERS OF HAUI NAN

 

01 - Insanity and sanity wound each other; greed and nature hurt each other. They cannot co-exist; when

one governs, the other wastes away. Therefore, sages reduce desire and follow nature. ( Taoist Classics,

Vol. 1, p. 406)

 

02 - Sages overcome mind; ordinary people overcome greed. Ideal people act sanely; petty people act

insanely. Sanity means inward comfort with nature, outward accord with duty, reasonable action, and

nonentanglement. Insanity means addiction to sensuality and emotional impulsiveness heedless

of subsequent problems. (ibid, p. 405)

 

03 - The eyes, ears, and palate do not know what to take and what to leave; when the mind governs

them, they each find their proper place. Seen from this point of view, it is evident that desire cannot

be overcome; yet it can be done to the point where insanity does not occur, by any who master

themselves and develop their nature, regulate sexual activity and moderate their dining, make their

emotions gentle, and act and rest appropriately, causing this all to be in themselves. (ibid, p. 385)

 

04 - Sages examine the changes of movement and rest, make the measures of receiving and giving

appropriate, make feelings of like and dislike reasonable, and harmonize the degrees of joy and anger.

 

When movement and rest are right, no trouble is encountered. When receiving and giving are appropriate,

no blame is incurred. When likes and dislikes are reasonable, no anxiety comes near. When joy and

anger are in measure, no enmity invades.

 

Therefore, people who arrive at the Way do not take wrongful gain yet do not reject good fortune. They

do not throw away what they have and do not seek what is not theirs. When one is always full, there is

an overflow; when one is always empty, one is easily satisfied. (ibid, p. 394)

 

05 - Those who do not know the Way give up what they already have to seek what they have not yet got.

They fret and worry, which leads them into being selfish and devious. Therefore, when fortune comes they

rejoice, and when trouble comes they are afraid. Their spirits toil at planning and scheming; their intellects

labor over their affairs. Troubles and blessings sprout and grow, but people may live their whole lives

without conscience, resenting others for what they themselves have created. If they are not happy,

they are anxious and have never tasted peace within; they are not masters of what they have in their

hands. This is called the birth of madness. (ibidp. 395)

 

In the spirit of the Tao,

Yen Hui

Edited March 3, 2007 by Yen Hui

[lengthyinnuendo]

thanks, these are all helpfull. I suppose the chapter that gave me the most confusion, was 48. I guess I can still play football without "private ends to serve". So to renounce all, doesn't mean to renounce all? I guess the idea is to only do what's necessary, and since football is an inner desire though strong, should it be abandoned, or approached with a philosophy of non-attachment?

 

From the five quotes of the masters of Haui Nan: it is five that I'm currently relating to, perhaps I should enjoy what I have now, it only seems natural to plan or anticipate some of the challenges for what is to come ahead. At least day dream a bit. Or is this distracting me from now, or inner quiet. This is often my confusion with zen and my personal desires, but I will continue to read the posts in response and mull those ideas over.

[soaring crane]

Hi lengthy,

 

You're confusing one particular book, as important a book as it may be, with "Dao". Dao isn't found in any book. It isn't really found anywhere, I suppose. It's perceptible in nature. And when you come closer to your natural self, perceptible in you.

 

Regarding "not competing", you can remain in the game without losing contact with your natural self, with Dao. As soon as you play to win, though, you've become egotistical and no matter the score when the final whistle blows, you've lost a little of your natural self. Hence, you win by not competing - but you gain by playing. Others can't compete with you because they're not playing the same game as you.

 

Btw, just a general statement, adding the article "the" to Dao is a way of moving Dao closer to the human scale, instead of the other way around.

[Wayfarer64]

Hi there One & All-

 

Once again the variety of responses speaks volumes. The points I would add/argue are:

1- The Tao is indeed a more appropriate usage-the Tao says nothing. It is just an inept word to discribe a mental concept/construct.

2- There are no proscribed activities in Taoism per se... there is a time and place for all and every activity. The inner meaning of our activities will remain a mystery much of the time. But we can maintain mindfulness as we go about our lives and concern ourselves with the resulting reality our activities will produce. Motives are important here...

3,- I hold the Yi Jing ( I Ching)- to be the "bible" of Taoist literature- it is the touch-stone of The Way for me. But this is not the case for all Taoists.

4.- The Tao is a concept of universal unity... That at a basic level of existence, all life stems from the same source, and that the seperatness we live in may be transcended to allow us an existence of being that is at one with the universe, natural and whole.-All this in a realm of constant change.

5.- Living as part of the whole universe more than as a seperate entity is not easy to do. We are hard-wired to be selfish in our intentions.

 

Stay well- PDG

[Yen Hui]

I suppose the chapter that gave me the most confusion, was 48.

 

Cleary's Translation of Tao Te Ching, Chapter/Section 48:-

For learning you gain daily; for the Way you lose daily.

Losing and losing, thus you reach noncontrivance;

be uncontrived, and nothing is not done.

Taking the world is always done by not making anything of it.

For when something is made of it, that is not enough to take the world.

 

( Cleary's Translation @ http://home.pages.at/onkellotus/TTK/Englis..._TTK.html#Kap48 )

 

 

According to Chapter 48, you can take football, but just don't make anything of it. But if you

make something of it, anyway, use it for practicing the Tao. Avoid all addictions. If and when

football becomes an addiction, I would say it's time to retreat. You must learn how to practice

non-contrivance, by flowing with the Tao. When you can "completely realize" your true nature

in "the game" of football, you will have realized the nature of football as well. You will then be

free. But we don't need football, in reality, to find freedom!

 

Football is an aggressive and very physical path, so will require more effort or discipline in the

emotional department than a less aggressive one. That means more emotional work, or having

to work through more negative emotions and emotional blocks. Do not allow football to obstruct

your chi flow by becoming an emotional prison, or torture chamber. Learn to practice the way of

non-attachment at all times; whether playing football or engaged in any other mundane activity.

But non-attachment is not an excuse for laziness, or for not practicing your form and technique

to perfection, or to the point of flawless execution! Practice!

 

The Tao can be realized in football, no less than in the Fist-Arts. But your approach to the game

must be fundamentally different than the "average" player's. As soaring crane says, it's not about

winning and losing. So what do you do, then, when "the team" celebrates their victories? Do you

join the festivities? Would your participation give the wrong impression to others, that, perhaps it

really is about winning and losing? Just remember one thing: actions communicate. Your life is a

reflection, and it should reflect and attract the Tao; which agrees with the path of concealment!

 

I guess I can still play football without "private ends to serve". So to renounce all, doesn't mean

to renounce all? I guess the idea is to only do what's necessary, and since football is an inner

desire though strong, should it be abandoned, or approached with a philosophy of non-attachment?

 

The idea is to keep it "real" at all times, which is to say, to "practice the Tao." If you can't do that,

while playing fotball, or at least make that your "focus" and "intent", then it's time to "re-focus" or

"re-group". Practicing the Tao means not being influenced by externals, in a negative direction. And

that means not being negatively influenced by our associates. If we chose to be part of society, then

we must associate with those who do not obstruct our Path to becoming 'real people'; fully integrated

human beings, that is. But I meant "re-group" mainly in terms of priorities, and complete realization

of the Tao tops the list! But since deviation from the correct path is an ongoing concern, vigilance is

the order of the day!

 

From the five quotes of the masters of Haui Nan: it is five that I'm currently relating to, perhaps I

should enjoy what I have now, it only seems natural to plan or anticipate some of the challenges

for what is to come ahead. At least day dream a bit. Or is this distracting me from now, or inner

quiet. This is often my confusion with zen and my personal desires, but I will continue to read the

posts in response and mull those ideas over.

 

Imagery is very powerful. It can be used to free you or imprison you. Therefore, it is not something

to play with. We need to use it responsibly, or "consciously" or in a fully awakened state. Distraction

has its practical use and abuse, like everything else. When it keeps you from the Tao, then it's abuse.

Abuses must be eliminated. Inner quiet and stillness is your true nature. You (we) must realize this at

all times. Eventually, with practice and realization, our direct experience of reality will acquire depth!

And the greater the root, the stronger the tree, and the further it can extend itself. Keep it balanced

and harmonious, if you can; but if you can't, then the solution is quite simple, in my eyes: Quit!!

 

 

03 - The eyes, ears, and palate do not know what to take and what to leave; when the mind governs

them, they each find their proper place. Seen from this point of view, it is evident that desire cannot

be overcome; yet it can be done to the point where insanity does not occur, by any who master

themselves and develop their nature, regulate sexual activity and moderate their dining, make their

emotions gentle, and act and rest appropriately, causing this all to be in themselves. (ibid, p. 385)

 

23 MORE QUOTES FROM THE HUAI NAN MASTERS

 

01 - Sages do not use people for their own personal ends; they do not let their desires disturb harmony.

Therefore, when they are happy, they do not rejoice too much, and when they are sad, they do not

grieve too much. ( Taoist Classics, Vol. 1, p. 409)

 

02 - Sadness, happiness, and ill-temper make sickness accumulate. When there are many likes and dislikes,

calamity follows along. (Taoist Classics, Vol. 1, p. 392)

 

03 - Likes and dislikes are excesses of the mind. Habitual desires are a burden on human nature. (Taoist

Classics, Vol. 1, p. 392)

 

04 - "If you are not satisfied with yourself, even if you have a whole continent for your house with all its

people for your servants, this will not be enough to support you." (Taoist Classics, Vol. 1, p. 375)

 

05 - "Those who can reach the point where they take no pleasure in anything find that they can now enjoy

everything. Since there is nothing they do not enjoy, their happiness is supreme." (Taoist Classics, Vol.

1, p. 376)

 

06 - "What I call happiness is when people appeciate what they have. People who appreciate what they have

do not consider extravagance enjoyable and do not consider frugality a sorry state." ( Taoist Classics,

Vol. 1, p. 375)

 

07 - "Take the world lightly, and your spirit will not be burdened. Consider everything minor, and your mind

will not be confused . Regard death and life as equal, and your heart will not be afraid." ( Taoist Classics,

Vol. 1, p. 374)

 

08 - When people are caught up in the world, they are materially bound and spiritually drained. Therefore,

they unavoidably suffer ailments from depletion. (Taoist Classics, Vol. 1, p. 379)

 

09 - Habitual desires deplete people's energy; likes and dislikes strain people's minds. If you don't get rid of

them quickly, your will and energy will diminish day by day. (Taoist Classics, Vol. 1, p. 375)

 

10 - When the essential vitality is lost within, and speech and action look to externals, then one cannot avoid

being a personal servant of things. When people are ostentatious in speech and devious in action, this is

because their vitality is seeking externals. Their vitality runs low and wears out, while their actions have no

consummation, so mental confusion clouds their spirits, and this confusion shakes them to the roots. The

principles by which they live are inconstant, and they are outwardly infatuated with vulgarities. They bungle

their decisions, while inwardly beclouding their clarity. Therefore, they hesitate all their lives and never get a

moments peace. (Taoist Classics, Vol. 1, p. 388)

 

11 - When the mind neither sorrows nor delights, that is supreme attainment of virtue. To succeed without

changing is the supreme attainment of calm. To be unburdened by habitual desires is the supreme attainment

of emptiness. To have no likes and dislikes is the supreme attainment of equanimity. Not getting mixed up with

things is the supreme attainment of purity. Those who can accomplish these five things reach spiritual

illumination. Those who reach spiritual illumination are those who attain the inward. Therefore, when you

master the outward by means of the inward, all affairs are unspoiled. If you can attain this within, then you

can develop it outwardly. (Taoist Classics, Vol. 1, p. 390-391)

 

12 - When people are calm, this is their celestial nature; to act on being moved is the capacity of this nature.

When the spirit responds to things that come up, this is the action of cognition; when cognition and objects

come into contact, like and dislike arise. When likes and dislikes are formalized, and cognition is lured outside,

unable to return to itself, the celestial pattern is obliterated. Therefore, those who arrive at the Tao do not

replace the celestial with the human. Externally they change along with things, but internally they do not lose

their true state. (Taoist Classics, Vol. 1, p. 400)

 

13 - Outwardly go along with the flow, while inwardly keeping your true nature. Then your eyes and ears will

not be dazzled, and your thoughts will not be confused, while the spirit within you will expand greatly to roam

in the realm of absolute purity. (Taoist Classics, Vol. 1, p. 383)

 

14 - Attainment of the Tao is certain and does not depend on the flow of things. I do not let the changes of a

given time determine the way I master myself. What I call self-mastery means that my nature and life abide

where they are secure. (Taoist Classics, Vol. 1, p. 383)

 

15 - When desires do not emerge within and perversions do not enter from without, this is called security.

When there is inward and outward security, everything is moderate; everything can be accomplished. (Taoist

Classics, Vol. 1, p. 385)

 

16 - The vital spirit belongs to heaven; the physical body belongs to earth. When the vital spirit goes home,

and the physical body returns to its origin, where then is the self? (Taoist Classics, Vol. 1, p. 381)

 

17 - When you penetrate psychology, you realize that habitual desires, likes and dislikes, are external. (Taoist

Classics, Vol. 1, p. 375)

 

18 - "If you consider externals important, you will be inwardly stifled by this. People chasing game do not see

the mountains. When your desires are externalized, then your light is obscured." ( Taoist Classics, Vol. 1,

p. 397)

 

19 - When outside and inside do not match, yet you want to make connections with things, you cover your

mystic light and seek knowledge through your eyes and ears. This is giving up illumination, so the way is dark.

This is called losing the Way. (Taoist Classics, Vol. 1, p. 388)

 

20 - Those who rely on intelligence without the Way will surely be endangered; those who employ talent

unscientifically will surely be frustrated. There are those who perish because of having many desires, but there

has never been anyone imperiled by being desireless. There are those who cause disorder by their desire to

govern, but no one has ever suffered loss by preservation of the constant. (Taoist Classics, Vol. 1, p. 376)

 

21 - If you want to abandon learning to follow nature, this is like leaving the boat and trying to walk over the

water. When a fine sword first comes out of the mold, it cannot cut or pierce until it is sharpened. When a fine

mirror first comes out of the mold, it cannot reflect clearly until it is ground and polished. Learning is also a

way to sharpen and polish people. Those who say learning is useless are mistaken in their argument. (Taoist

Classics, Vol. 1, p. 398)

 

22 - Those who know how to learn are like axles of a car: the center of the hub does not itself move, but with

it they go a thousand miles, beginning again when they finish, operating an inexhaustible resource. Those who

do not know how to learn are as though lost: tell them the cardinal directions, and they misunderstand;

listening from their own point of view, they are disoriented and therefore fail to get the gist of the whole

matter. (Taoist Classics, Vol. 1, p. 374)

 

23 - When the spirit controls the body, the body obeys; when the body overrules the spirit, the spirit is

exhausted. Although intelligence is useful, it needs to be returned to the spirit. This is called the Great

Harmony. (Taoist Classics, Vol. 1, p. 396)

Edited March 6, 2007 by Yen Hui

[soaring crane]

 

1- The Tao is indeed a more appropriate usage-the Tao says nothing. It is just an inept word to discribe a mental concept/construct.

 

Inept?

 

I dunno... I think the article turns Dao into a substantive and all substantives have something to say.

 

Like Chaos. There's the chaos on my desktop and then there's Chaos as a ruling force in the universe. When I meditate on Chaos, then the chaos seems rather small, trivial, which is a good thing

[Wayfarer64]

I mean inept in terms of expression. There is traditionaly no way to express the Tao and to try to do so is to miss the point of its essence. There is no apt way to express the Tao,-traditionaly... I in fact, believe that we do a fair job of it here... Amongst ourselves we are searching through the structures of language to find a bit of terra firma to stand on, in order to survey the landscape of what we are exploring.

 

All this in the inner-space of our own consciousness...How could we not be inept in using any word to discribe The Way? No words can discribe the process of understanding our union with the one and all...Still, we try... and inept or not; we often get our inner meaning across...

namaste- PDG

[Taeguk]

Hi!

 

Wayfarer64, you wrote:

 

mean inept in terms of expression. There is traditionaly no way to express the Tao and to try to do so is to miss the point of its essence. There is no apt way to express the Tao,-traditionaly

 

Right you are!

 

I think the Zhuangzi says at some point: "Tao is a word that indicates without defining."

 

The Way is definitely something that has to be experienced to be "known".

 

But if words can aid in directing us to the Way---I say use 'em.

[soaring crane]

I mean inept in terms of expression.

 

Thanks... I realized afterwards what you meant. We can't use a word to describe the indescribable and even the best attempt will be in vain. But for the sake of communication, we have to agree on something. Sounds vaguely familiar, lol.

 

But I'm surprised you don't see what I'm getting at by not making Dao a substantive, a noun. Making Dao a noun brings "it" firmly within the realm of consious thought, of human affairs, so to speak. "The" Dao indicates that there must be something that is not "the" Dao. But true Dao "exists" (horrible word for it but I can't think of a better one at the moment) outside all of that. Dao has no opposite, no synonym, no comparison, no metaphor, no definition. Not even a purpose.

 

And no article, lol. Not really. But for the sake of conversation...

 

In Chinese, it's just, "Dao" and that makes it much easier to move a little baby step closer to perceiving "it", for me anyway.

 

Try meditating on the imponderable. It can be quite soothing

Edited March 6, 2007 by soaring crane

[Wayfarer64]

I have little Chinese to speak of (pun intended)- But I think that the "the" in the way as tao translates is meant to indicate it as a noun... Will the Chinese speakers among us please clarify!?

 

In any case I don't think that there is an inherent non-tao in using the word as a noun... the concept is still the over-all unifier that unites the many dichotomies within it...as the source of all and the manifestation as well as the realization through time and space of all ... it remains a oneness...Without ever coming into being as a seperate "it" ... all energy, matter, anti-matter and thought are still manifestations of the way things are...

 

We change the way things are by our activities...As does all of life, manifesting change and life and will and being... or just what have you...and even that does not come close toexplaning anything!