Getting punched in the gut...

[Maddie]

http://www.gifbin.com/f/986046

Edited June 4, 2013 by dmattwads

[Trunk]

I was talking to another friend recently about developing sensitivity and responsibility for your own body, within the context of studying with a teacher / school.

My position is that you have to develop both.

 

For one thing, in the internal arts, if you don't develop a sensitivity for what is promoting harmony in your own body and what isn't ... and gradually get better at that ... if you don't do that then for sure you are going to hurt yourself. Some time some how some way. And you'd have no compass to navigate progress (though we are all feeling our way in the dark to a certain extent, there is still the feel).

 

Trusting the teacher to always sense your inner situation and advise the right thing, it's just expecting too much; it's not human. Even doing that for one student is very tricky and deep, but teachers have lots of students. Even if the teacher is *very* good it is expecting too much, not real.

 

And I'm not an absolutist; I'm not saying, "you're %100 responsible" because there is a certain amount of leadership and direction that a teacher provides. It's a balancing act. ... but I'd say that it's very important not to go into such child-like trust with a teacher that you abdicate your adult-hood. It's a very common mistake and isn't good for the teacher nor the student, nor the school nor progress.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Trunk

[林愛偉]

I was talking to another friend recently about developing sensitivity and responsibility for your own body, within the context of studying with a teacher / school.

My position is that you have to develop both.

 

For one thing, in the internal arts, if you don't develop a sensitivity for what is promoting harmony in your own body and what isn't ... and gradually get better at that ... if you don't do that then for sure you are going to hurt yourself. Some time some how some way. And you'd have no compass to navigate progress (though we are all feeling our way in the dark to a certain extent, there is still the feel).

 

Trusting the teacher to always sense your inner situation and advise the right thing, it's just expecting too much; it's not human. Even doing that for one student is very tricky and deep, but teachers have lots of students. Even if the teacher is *very* good it is expecting too much, not real.

 

And I'm not an absolutist; I'm not saying, "you're %100 responsible" because there is a certain amount of leadership and direction that a teacher provides. It's a balancing act. ... but I'd say that it's very important not to go into such child-like trust with a teacher that you abdicate your adult-hood. It's a very common mistake and isn't good for the teacher nor the student, nor the school nor progress.

 

 

Many teachers revel in these kinds of mindless devotion. When you start to think for yourself, they get angry, and try to discredit you. Some even try to assume that their outlook is the traditionalist way, and thus correct

 

When in fact traditionalists, or the "old-schoolers", or ancients, always sought to inspire the student to think outside the box, figure things out for themselves, and develop their own mannerism of doing things according to the foundational principles. -This is the proper way, not the "my way is correct, and there is no other way to do it" attitude.

[Trunk]

I guess this topic has got me going

 

I was thinking driving home that western style exercise (weight lifting, sports) gave me a number of wrong attitudes and feelings by which to approach qigong.

 

And that the qigong world is just littered with injured aspirants... who often got injured before they had enough experience and knowledge to really fend for themselves. Really common.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Hey guys,

 

I wanted to know, perhaps someone who has some knowledge about the topic could help me.

 

Any input is greatly appreciated.

 

My honest opinion, is. If you have to ask, you know the answer!

 

There are methods around this idea that are not problematic, but most methods out and about are incomplete and have the potential for great internal harm.

 

HOWEVER the male ego is usually bigger than the methods regardless and so, well.

 

Any skill or attribute should be developed, taking full power hits from day one is stupid. The body needs time to change and develop accordingly.

 

Best,

[Sloppy Zhang]

There are a few issues at play, and I think it's important to separate them.

 

There ARE legitimate methods of hard qigong out there that, as part of their lineage, include safety and training protocols to develop a healthy, well rounded body.

 

And there are legitimate lineages of hard qigong out there that, while they've been around for generations, can still lead to some physical damage in the long term. Case in point, many Karate schools had partial knowledge of chi development practices from Chinese martial arts, but their masters couldn't walk or have any hand dexterity by their mid 30's (Mas Oyama could knock out a bull with one punch... but couldn't use chopsticks).

 

So the question becomes: what are you learning?

 

How do you know? Well who's your teacher? Who's your teacher's teacher? Who's your teacher's teacher's teachers? What students have they produced, and what attainments do their students have? What has your teacher done in life?

 

On some level you have to be a pedigree snob. So he's a TCM teacher. Is he a GOOD one? Is he from a good lineage?

 

And as others have mentioned, you HAVE to develop body awareness. I firmly believe a good martial art/qigong school is going to develop this.

 

Bruce Frantzis talks about tension in the body a lot, and tension dulls the senses.

 

It might be that your kiai's are circulating chi to block the hits and prevent damage. Or it might just be that your kiai's are tensing you at just the right moment that you are literally becoming dull to the pain.

 

In the short term you might get away with it, but long term you might get issues from repetitive damage, and you won't even recognize it because you can't feel your own body!

 

 

Certainly bring up your concerns with your teacher.

 

But be aware that depending on your teacher's lineage, he may not recommend a course of action that is going to produce a body that is going to stand up for long term use.

[Wu Ming Jen]

Imagine swallowing the energy of the blow, Inhale withdraw the stomach slight tension but more like ward off energy (be prepared for the strike) with the correct timing there will be a load sound of contact but you are retreating, the sound is the first touch then nothing is there to be hit, withdraw backwards you do not even have to move your feet with correct bow and arrow stance (start with all your weight on the front foot). Horse stance is weak for absorbing energy moving toward you straight on, Horse is strong right and left not front or back.

 

If you do not like the class end it and let people think what they think, be true to your self.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Wu Ming Jen

[Ish]

Imagine swallowing the energy of the blow, Inhale withdraw the stomach slight tension but more like ward off energy (be prepared for the strike) with the correct timing there will be a load sound of contact but you are retreating, the sound is the first touch then nothing is there to be hit, withdraw backwards you do not even have to move your feet with correct bow and arrow stance (start with all your weight on the front foot). Horse stance is weak for absorbing energy moving toward you straight on, Horse is strong right and left not front or back.

 

If you do not like the class end it and let people think what they think, be true to your self.

 

So you inhale when taking a blow? Interesting, i normally hear to exhale.

[Wu Ming Jen]

Tap your gut with your fingers with force while exhaling then tap with force as you inhale. feel the difference? With inhale the air is not being forced back in when your stomach is being punched /pushed inward. Exhale the belly is expanding when you are emitting force like blowing up a balloon. Taking a strike reverse method. The punch will not take your breath away if you inhale.

 

Swallow energy, inhale, absorb, redirect.Present a target and take it away. Show your opponent an illusion to base their strikes on. suddenly disappear, suddenly appear.

[oildrops]

Is there really part of you that is saying "I sure think I should keep getting punched in the guts. That'll be real good." ? Maybe it's good for certain goals, but if you don't like being punched at all and think it might kill you or cause serious injury, then maybe you should stop.

[CrunchyChocolate555]

I still have not talked to my instructor. I have not gone to class all week due to an injury.

 

The thing is that I am undergoing a Tui-na "apprenticeship" program with my instructor. But, I get the feeling that he couldn't give a rat's ass about me. He doesn't reply to any of my e-mails, and only gives me rushed answers/instruction during classes and during training. The other day it took all my courage to ask him if I had done anything to offend him, or said something wrong, and he said "no, no, not at all!" and that was that. I know he is a busy person, and doesn't have a lot of time to devote to me, but I *did* sign up for an apprenticeship program, after all. I barely get 30 minutes of Tui-na instruction a week, if that. I really feel like I'm annoying him every time I ask him a question. He also talks trash about every single other "master/teacher", whenever I happen to mention one. :/

 

So that's the thing, it really is my main "schooling", right now. Not just for martial arts.

 

In regards to building up to the blows, we do NO internal work during this class. It is a 100% external self-defence system. Actually, we do no internal work for any of the other classes. All the bagua and hsing-i stuff is taught as an external MA, for some reason. I never question their method, since I figure he must know his stuff.

 

The reason I haven't just cut my losses and found another school is I have a history of not getting along with my teachers/coaches in the past. I had to cut out my old tennis coach because of his big ego. So I am wondering perhaps if it is not simply me that's somehow at fault since it keeps happening over and over.

[林愛偉]

I have had teachers like this. It is very...darkening to the mind and emotions. People like this seem to think that just because they are strong, or train their martial arts and have an idea on how to use it, that they are more superior. When you tell them otherwise, they try to distance themselves from you by complaining how ridiculous you sound, make you out to be crazy, and even make up stories about you. When you mention other people's names, they simply talk them down, thinking that they actually understand. Very condescending...

 

In truth, simply fighting, or learning only the fighting methods, is quite ordinary, nothing special. Fighting in and of itself is just low level accomplishment. People can become very proficient in fighting, but lack any sense of spiritual, ( compassionate) humility that comes along from actual cultivation of the finer arts; Qigong, Chan, Shen Gong, etc. Hence why Taiji Quan , Bagua cultivators in the past had some kind of eloquence to them. THey had a mind of stillness, unmoved by the ideas of having to be a better person.

 

Actually, I have met many proficient people in the arts out here in China. They don't speak bad of each other, and do not compare themselves to other people in the arts. Actually, it is known traditionally, that martial artists would learn from various teachers in their arts, or even choose other arts to become more diverse.

 

In truth, you did nothing wrong, and in the false, you did nothing wrong. lol I used to feel as you have. Many years ago I experienced this very exact situation. I stayed in it, and learned its dynamics. Then I was able to learn how to defeat it. That happened when I realized that just because someone has a "Sifu" title, it doesn't mean there is anything "Sifu-ish" about them, nor does it mean they have some special insight, or wisdom, true and inherent wisdom. They just know how to fight, and that isn't anything special.

 

So keep your head up, and the sooner you take it out of your heart, and put it out of your mind, you will realize how much you are empowering the situation in a negative way.

 

Mostly, I'm sure the teacher will refuse to believe that his training methods are actually harmful, and not in accord to the health aspects of Chinese Martial Culture.

 

Excuses like "its a martial art, you have to train for the reality of life..." and all that nonsense, is just a cop-out and it tries to make superior the person who says it; attempting to display the fearlessness towards hurting another, and or being hurt. Its quite kindergarten-ish behavior.

 

 

I still have not talked to my instructor. I have not gone to class all week due to an injury.

 

The thing is that I am undergoing a Tui-na "apprenticeship" program with my instructor. But, I get the feeling that he couldn't give a rat's ass about me. He doesn't reply to any of my e-mails, and only gives me rushed answers/instruction during classes and during training. The other day it took all my courage to ask him if I had done anything to offend him, or said something wrong, and he said "no, no, not at all!" and that was that. I know he is a busy person, and doesn't have a lot of time to devote to me, but I *did* sign up for an apprenticeship program, after all. I barely get 30 minutes of Tui-na instruction a week, if that. I really feel like I'm annoying him every time I ask him a question. He also talks trash about every single other "master/teacher", whenever I happen to mention one. :/

 

So that's the thing, it really is my main "schooling", right now. Not just for martial arts.

 

In regards to building up to the blows, we do NO internal work during this class. It is a 100% external self-defence system. Actually, we do no internal work for any of the other classes. All the bagua and hsing-i stuff is taught as an external MA, for some reason. I never question their method, since I figure he must know his stuff.

 

The reason I haven't just cut my losses and found another school is I have a history of not getting along with my teachers/coaches in the past. I had to cut out my old tennis coach because of his big ego. So I am wondering perhaps if it is not simply me that's somehow at fault since it keeps happening over and over.

Edited June 7, 2013 by 林愛偉

[BaguaKicksAss]

Btw, how long have you been practicing martial arts all together, and how long with this particular teacher? (sorry if you already mentioned and I missed it). This is actually quite relevant. The longer you are at it, the more your body builds up and so forth. Also making sure you are past the first few months mark with the teacher, as many teachers just expect the student to quit anyways in that time period and don't start paying much attention to folks under after a few months. Silly approach yes, but it does happen a lot.

[CrunchyChocolate555]

Thanks for the great and informative reply. I have been training there for nearly half a year now..

 

Btw, how long have you been practicing martial arts all together, and how long with this particular teacher? (sorry if you already mentioned and I missed it). This is actually quite relevant. The longer you are at it, the more your body builds up and so forth. Also making sure you are past the first few months mark with the teacher, as many teachers just expect the student to quit anyways in that time period and don't start paying much attention to folks under after a few months. Silly approach yes, but it does happen a lot.

[liminal_luke]

The reason I haven't just cut my losses and found another school is I have a history of not getting along with my teachers/coaches in the past. I had to cut out my old tennis coach because of his big ego. So I am wondering perhaps if it is not simply me that's somehow at fault since it keeps happening over and over.

 

I think it's very commendable that you're looking at how this pattern might have something to do with you especially as it happens, as you say, over and over again. One possibility, of course, is that you're perceiving the teachers as bad when they really aren't. Another is that you are repeatedly attracting abusive/inattentive teachers who aren't responsive to your needs. Just because it's possible that you "attracted" the situation doesn't mean you should stay.

 

I'm sure a lot of martial artists think it takes strength to allow oneself to be punched in the gut, and maybe it does. What takes even more strength though is standing up and saying... "no, I do not believe it's good for me to be punched in the gut, and I will no longer allow you to do so."

 

My two cents.

 

Liminal

Edited June 7, 2013 by liminal_luke

[Trunk]

In regards to building up to the blows, we do NO internal work during this class. It is a 100% external self-defence system. Actually, we do no internal work for any of the other classes. All the bagua and hsing-i stuff is taught as an external MA, for some reason.

 

uh... bagua and hsing-i are internal martial arts. If they are taught & practiced correctly, they are first practiced to generate internal change and that's where (later) their application power comes from. I can't imagine trying to go directly to external application. Seems to me that defeats the whole purpose and art of these inherently internal martial arts. Would generate no power, nothing in the long term. What a waste.

 

..., since I figure he must know his stuff.

 

Everything you've described about him so far indicates otherwise. Not just benignly, but potentially (probably) with serious consequences: injury. Guard your health! Do not let your naive trust over-power your realism.

 

If you are getting something positive from some aspect of the school (like tui na) where you are not at risk, and you feel like you really want to continue that, then keep that aspect. ... but geez!, stay out of the hard hitting.

 

Sorry to be so blunt, but you really need to find another teacher. Rather a doctor, healer. You are trying to jump levels from "remedial medical" (where you actually are) to "hard external style" and it's a BIG mistake!!! ... with potential long term health consequences.

 

Given all that you've described, clearly you are irresponsibly putting yourself in harm's way by continuing in that martial arts class.

Edited June 9, 2013 by Trunk

[寒月 Hanyue]

I still have not talked to my instructor. I have not gone to class all week due to an injury.

 

The thing is that I am undergoing a Tui-na "apprenticeship" program with my instructor. But, I get the feeling that he couldn't give a rat's ass about me. He doesn't reply to any of my e-mails, and only gives me rushed answers/instruction during classes and during training. The other day it took all my courage to ask him if I had done anything to offend him, or said something wrong, and he said "no, no, not at all!" and that was that. I know he is a busy person, and doesn't have a lot of time to devote to me, but I *did* sign up for an apprenticeship program, after all. I barely get 30 minutes of Tui-na instruction a week, if that. I really feel like I'm annoying him every time I ask him a question. He also talks trash about every single other "master/teacher", whenever I happen to mention one. :/

 

So that's the thing, it really is my main "schooling", right now. Not just for martial arts.

 

In regards to building up to the blows, we do NO internal work during this class. It is a 100% external self-defence system. Actually, we do no internal work for any of the other classes. All the bagua and hsing-i stuff is taught as an external MA, for some reason. I never question their method, since I figure he must know his stuff.

 

The reason I haven't just cut my losses and found another school is I have a history of not getting along with my teachers/coaches in the past. I had to cut out my old tennis coach because of his big ego. So I am wondering perhaps if it is not simply me that's somehow at fault since it keeps happening over and over.

 

It is good you are aware of your own side of things in any given relationship, that said,

 

Your teacher is meant to teach you, not ignore you. IT'S HIS JOB!

 

There is nothing you have said on this thread whatsoever that provides any reason as to why you would want to stay with this person. Not what they are teaching, and certainly not how.

 

Seriously, I would walk away rather than take the grief this person is giving you as unintentionally on their part as it maybe, it is obvious how much this is pulling you down.

 

Best,

[Trunk]

Some alternative healing resources, to give you a sense that there are healthy alternatives...

 

1. Unwinding the Belly book. Also read Eric's "Getting Started" thread in which he talks about UTB.

 

2. Self-massage along the Liver channel (or approximately along that way). Spend time gently working out any knots you find along that route. It will help with flow through your belly.

 

[CrunchyChocolate555]

Hey guys,

 

I left the class! It wasn't easy, but I did my best to explain in the most honest way I could. I get the feeling they think I just "gave up", but I don't care. I do not want to further justify myself.

 

I have found another great school (with great teachers) where I can pursue my studies.

 

Thanks for all the encouragement!

[Trunk]

I left the class! ...

I have found another great school (with great teachers) where I can pursue my studies.

 

Congratulations!!!

[CrunchyChocolate555]

Thank you!

 

 

Congratulations!!!

[Wu Ming Jen]

Awesome!!!

[silent thunder]

Hey guys,

 

I left the class! It wasn't easy, but I did my best to explain in the most honest way I could. I get the feeling they think I just "gave up", but I don't care. I do not want to further justify myself.

 

I have found another great school (with great teachers) where I can pursue my studies.

 

Thanks for all the encouragement!

Thanks for sharing your experience!

That is so helpful. My first MA experience was very similar. I had no experience, but instincts kicked in and led me to the right path for me, although it took me a lot longer than it did you... well done.

 

I would say you learned one of the best lessons from the old school, when to walk away from a teaching that isn't in line with your path.

 

Congratulations on finding your new school. Keep us posted on the progress bud!

[BaguaKicksAss]

Leaving a school where I ended up with a couple too many injuries was one of the most difficult things I've ever done. I was very vocal about things and explained that it was too much for me, and there were improvements, but still I eventually had to decide to leave. I had asked all my martial arts friends (mostly teachers) and a couple of complete strangers their opinion on things. Half of them said that yes it is standard to go that hard and get injured in martial arts; the other half said no, that is not right. I eventually had to realize that it doesn't matter, it is what I feel is right for ME in particular. So congrats on that. Like you, I also found a super awesome teacher after that is the perfect fit!

 

I think he might overemphasize some things a bit (some folks really are OK with the hard approach), interesting article: http://apittman.com/blog/teaching/martial-arts-abuse-by-teachers