Buddhist & Taoist Cultivation

[effilang]

I recently met some monks in a Buddhist monastery, that have been meditating for over 20 years.

Two of which had achieved enlightenment, one a monk and the other a nun.

 

By the qualifications and gradations of the Damma, they were Arhats. Ones who had reached the ultimate goal and after death, would not rejoin the wheel of Samsara.

 

So, ok. All fine and dandy.

 

BUT.

 

Some of these guys. Didn't look... emn.. in the BEST of health.

Not the type of health you'd imagine, if you were a Taoist practitioner.

 

Now. To annihilate the mind and achieve enlightenment is no small feat.

This is cultivation of Nature in Taoism, where in some sects, there is dual cultivation; that of Nature and Life.

 

One cannot achieve the ultimate goal in Taoism it is said, if they cultivate only nature or only life.

Dual cultivation is required. Thus the body must be refined (life) until perfection and the mind (nature) must be refined until perfection. And although the mind cannot be refined without the body, the mind cannot reach the pinnacle of it's absolute goal WITH the body still in clinging. SO all phenomena, conceptions and attachments must be evaporated to attain the final goal of Taoism, similar to Buddhism.

 

In the final stages of Taoist cultivation and also from what I've heard of Tibetan disciplines, the body's 5 elements are dispersed and the body is transmuted into eternity.

 

Now, Buddhists on the other hand, don't seem to care much about this from what I've seen. Please correct me If i'm wrong as I am trying to understand here. But it seems that they only deal with the direct refinement of mind.

 

Now I really don't understand what the implications of this are. Does it mean that ultimately, they can only crate Yin Shen and not Yang Shen, having not assimilated or developed the counter part to the mind?

 

By the Gods, I do not understand how little ol me, can meditate 2 hours a day for 3 months and have enough Qi running through me to dissolve cancerous tumors and heal people. And a monk doing insight meditation for 20 years, claims he has never experienced anything even remotely similar to energy. No rushed up the spine, no rumbles or heat in the belly, no lights seen, nada.

 

And no they weren't lying.

I described very specific and common physical and energetic manifestations to them to probe into their experiences and they could not relate to even ONE, where, were I speaking to a Taoist who had been meditating for 20 years, whom was practicing an EFFECTIVE discipline, they would at the least have opened the MCO.

 

So I am very confused about all this, because fundamentally we all have the same physiology (sex differences aside), so one would imagine that a powerful path such as Buddhism would develop the body's faculties, regardless of whether they were being concentrated on or not. At least I would imagine it to be so. And btw, just to say, in regard to how effective Buddhism and the 8th fold path with the right teacher and the right meditation regime. Well. It is miraculous transformation to say the least.

 

The only thing that negates this assumption is the fact that Taoist Alchemy can be complicated, there are firing times, times to breath and not breath, times to initiate heel breathing and times not to, times to use the bellows and times not to, times to gather agents, times to combine agents, times to concentrate agents, time to pacify agents, times to invigorate agents, methods of restrain, transmutation and transformation.

 

So in effect, it is not a direct path that one could simple blind fold themselves and walk in a straight line, where there are walls on either side to bump you on the shoulders and keep you centered. It is more like a maze, with dead ends and pits with spikes in the ground.

 

Looking at it this way. I can imagine how the monks and nuns I met, even the Arhats may have gotten to stages in their energetic development and due to their lack of practical alchemical knowledge simple counteracted the process inadvertently by IE. by not stopping breathing when necessary or ejecting the agent out of the pee pee or butt hole.

 

My goal is not to become Superman, but it is to help people. And being able to heal in the way that Taoism develops the physical body and energetic body is paramount to realizing that cause.

 

In other words, if I was blessed enough to reach enlightenment through Buddhism, I would not want to spend the rest of my days simply talking to people, or would not want to wait 10-20 years to attain enlightenment of the mind, meanwhile not doing anything useful to help others while you're on the path.

 

Is there something I am not understanding about Buddhist meditation yet or?

Did Siddhartha practice dual cultivation? Are the monks of today practicing insight and reaching Enlightenment not able to heal and use energies like Taoists do?

Did the Buddha ever exhibit healing skills or any Qi Gong skills or Gong Fu?

 

Throw your cents please.

Edited June 2, 2013 by effilang

[effilang]

Drew. Chip in please.

[Maddie]

This is something I have pondered as well. It seems that one of the major differences between Buddhist and Taoist cultivation is that Buddhism places most if not all its emphasis on cultivating the mind and the body is seen has having very little importance. Taoists on the other hand cultivate both body and mind.

 

Brodi said that master Nan reached enlightenment so quickly at an early age that he had to spend several more years then cultivating his body. The mind in his case outpaced the body. Part of the explanation for the Buddhist outlook on the body, or lack of outlook on it is that the first of the five Skandha's is form. Form being one of the Skandha's is seen as a hindrance to enlightenment.

 

This is precisely the problem that Bodhi Dharma ran into when you first came to Shaolin. The monks were sickly and in poor health, and his effort to find a solution to this was to come up with the qigong and kungfu that has made Shaolin so famous.

 

This is also the primary reason that while my primary focus is Buddhism I continue to do certain Taoist practices. Meditation is a lot easier when your body is healthy lol.

 

Buddhists do want to help people but their take on it is more along the lines of teaching them the dharma so that they can escape Samsara and thus no longer suffer.

 

Alex Anatole the Russian Taoist master made a good point in his book "The Truth of Tao" when he said that if your weak and sickly this is going to be a distraction to meditation, while if your in good health and have no trouble sitting still for long periods of time then meditation will come much easier to you. (I paraphrase).

[effilang]

"This is precisely the problem that Bodhi Dharma ran into when you first came to Shaolin. The monks were sickly and in poor health, and his effort to find a solution to this was to come up with the qigong and kungfu that has made Shaolin so famous. "

 

This is exactly what I was thinking about too. It seems a shame that there are still monasteries today that don't take advantage of the benefits of Bodhidharmas teaching.

 

Still I'd love to get more input from other folks on this.

 

Liberating the mind without the body.

Liberating the body and mind as one after fusing them together.

[Ish]

That's for Hinayana. For the other vehicles Arhatship is not seen as close to Enlightenment.

 

Tantra and the higher vehicles have plenty of practices that work with the energy and body. These are seen as very important to achieve realisation in a single life time.

 

 

Remember the tale of (I think) Milarepa and Gampopa where Gampopa could already sit in samadhi for weeks without any disturbance. But still Milarepa said it was nothing compared to result possible with Tummo.

Of trying to attain enlightenment by sitting in that kind of Samadhi I think Milarepa said it was like trying to get oil by pressing sand.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

The Buddhist approach is generally to focus on the mind as that's the key thing, and allow the body to sort itself out. We have blocks in our chi and so on due to mental hindrances. Change the mind, and the body changes to remain a suitable vehicle. Thus, Zen masters have experienced advanced chi developments, such as speaking in poetry in time with the pumping of the root chakra when it first opens. They just don't see the chi stuff as important in itself.

 

So it is possible that those monks you met had reasonable chi, but had never felt it because their chi never had to bust through blocks (no friction - chi flows smoothly - no noticeable sensation), as the blocks were mentally dissipated.

 

It is also possible that due to terrible physical health their chi was never able to build up, despite blocks being dissolved. This seems most likely to me.

 

It's also perhaps possible that they actually lied about feeling chi as expedient means to not get people attached to chi!

 

Of course, there are more Tantric Buddhist approaches such as Vajrayana, where the body is dealt with along with the mind, as in Taoism. Also jing retention is necessary for chi to build up, although it may not be recognised as such.

 

The risk, IMHO, with actively working on the body, is getting sidetracked with flashy sensations and phenomena. There are too many people thinking that the key variable in enlightenment is open channels - really chi is only important in cultivation because it is associated with the mind, and for good health.

 

I think that the mind-only approach is perfectly valid. However, I prefer doing a little chi practices to supplement because it's faster burning the candle from both ends; and all people need to get physical exercise for health - especially monks and people who don't do anything with their chi.

Edited June 2, 2013 by Seeker of the Self

[BaguaKicksAss]

I have found with meditation that oftentimes you don't notice things unless you are looking for them. I had no "qi" experiences in my first 20 years of meditation.... that I recall. I had many other experiences, but no MCO, well not knowingly anyways. On the otherhand I personally find it very hard to believe that folks can meditate and not see/hear spirits quite clearly?! That is just one example.

 

Also, from what folks have told me, that is why martial arts was taught to the monastery folks back in day... they were in poor health from a lot of sitting and not much physical activity.

 

One quick question though, how old were they? I have mistakenly thought folks were in poor health before, right up until I find out they are twice as old as I am .

[C T]

Basic question -- Which Buddhist tradition does this monastery align with?

 

I am of the believe that the Buddha did not encourage practitioners to neglect the body ala concentrate solely on mental or mind development.

 

All being said, it really depends on the individual. Monks in (some) buddhist monasteries dont even know w.t.heck they are doing there in the first place, let alone answer your nagging doubts about mind/body transformation. You have to understand that the majority of monks are in monasteries for every other reason under the sun except spiritual attunement. Same thing goes for those folks who live in Taoist temples... go ask them for insights and they'll probably just smile serenely and look at you with a sort of blankness which says it all.

 

I come from that part of the world where monasteries and temples abound. I would say that i have yet to see one which places primary focus on 'real' spiritual cultivation. These institutions are put up to cater for the masses of people who seem to be looking for solace from their pain and angst and/or to gain favors with the gods, bribing the powers-that-be with promises of donations and offerings should the gods selectively choose to look upon them with benevolence and bless them with prosperity and longevity. This is usually induced thru asking/praying for lotto numbers, stock market investments to flourish etc.

 

Not that its all a waste of time, but one has to really know how to find one's way into the not-so-immediately-noticeable inner sanctums of those little temples and monasteries that are far off the beaten track in order to lick the cream, so to say.

[effilang]

The one that had been meditating for 5 hours a day (mandatory) and 8 hours a day every 3 months of a year, for 20 years, was 60 years this year, so he started when he was 40.

 

That's at least 36,500 hours of meditation. It's over 9 THOUSAAAAAAAAAAAAND!!!

I don't know.

 

It's just hard for me to understand, when there are system out there, effective enough to get people healing and performing helpful and compassionate skills in such short times. Systems proven to work. Yet, Buddism, at least what I witnessed, was quite lagging in this.

Edited June 2, 2013 by effilang

[effilang]

Basic question -- Which Buddhist tradition does this monastery align with?

 

Theravada.

[effilang]

BUT, I will stress again, because I feel like I'm not giving it the credit it's due. Buddhism effectiveness in cultivating the mind and bringing about detachment by putting out the fire of the heart, was incomparable as far as I am concerned.

 

The results I achieved there in a week were, I have never achieved anywhere else, not only my mind transformed profoundly, but my body too.

[Jetsun]

Different Buddhist traditions have different methods for example the Kalachakra Tantra you use the channels and points in the body, but the main purpose isn't to gain health it is to attain Samadhi and discover the ground of your being. From what I can see though it is possible to go directly to the ground of your being directly without using the body, for example in Zen the body is almost completely neglected but it seems like it can cause health problems, for example the Zen master Hakuin destroyed his health so badly by obsessing with koans and mind meditation that it almost killed him and he had to go seek out a Taoist to cure his "meditation sickness" which would bring the energy down into his body away from his head. So although you can obtain realization only with the mind it seems to be risky to ignore the body, also interestingly Hakuin only gained enlightenment when his practice was balanced with the Taoist body meditation.

[Friend]

Edited August 17, 2013 by Friend

[Simple_Jack]

Different Buddhist traditions have different methods for example the Kalachakra Tantra you use the channels and points in the body, but the main purpose isn't to gain health it is to attain Samadhi and discover the ground of your being. From what I can see though it is possible to go directly to the ground of your being directly without using the body, for example in Zen the body is almost completely neglected but it seems like it can cause health problems, for example the Zen master Hakuin destroyed his health so badly by obsessing with koans and mind meditation that it almost killed him and he had to go seek out a Taoist to cure his "meditation sickness" which would bring the energy down into his body away from his head. So although you can obtain realization only with the mind it seems to be risky to ignore the body, also interestingly Hakuin only gained enlightenment when his practice was balanced with the Taoist body meditation.

 

That's an extreme example of one individual in history. This is definitely not the norm, especially when it comes to the usage of koans. I know from first hand experience and practice with others in a Zen sangha who's main practice is using koans. I have yet to see or hear of anyone suffer from those type of symptoms resulting from koan usage.

 

It's just hard for me to understand, when there are system out there, effective enough to get people healing and performing helpful and compassionate skills in such short times. Systems proven to work. Yet, Buddism, at least what I witnessed, was quite lagging in this.

 

That's because you're only looking at the situation of monks at a certain monastery, in a certain country. Monks are (usually) not going to interact with the laity to that extent.

 

Go out and learn your medical system of choice (e.g. Ayurveda), just like Buddhist masters and laity have done before in the past.

[gendao]

By the Gods, I do not understand how little ol me, can meditate 2 hours a day for 3 months and have enough Qi running through me to dissolve cancerous tumors and heal people

Wow, you've dissolved tumors?

 

\m/

Do tell us more!!!

[effilang]

Yes. I had an experience similar to Lin Ai Wei, with my mother too.

I think I wrote about it here somewhere on the Bums, the day it happened.

 

She has a history of cancerous growths and my little brother passed away from cancer too.

Either way. She was at the docs to get her X-Ray and it came back with bad results.

 

At the time, I was just meditating in my room. I had had glimpses of emptiness, my LDT was hot and vibrating violently.

I felt like I had a raw potential in me, and for some reason I just knew intuitively that If projected the right intention through my will, a kind loving, caring and compassionate intention (the sort you'd have towards your mother), that somehow this energy would do what it needed to do and heal her.

 

So, I put her on a short regiment for a few days. It was a major pain just to get her out of bed in the mornings.

But, we stretched, did moving Qi Gong and Pranayama for 2 days then on the 3rd, I told her to sit down on a stool.

 

So she did. Then I put my hands around her LDT and Ming Men and imagined that I was super-charing her LDT.

Then I guided the energy in her LDT up her Governor and down her Conception.

 

I didn't know the technical details of what I was doing, but without a doubt I could feel in my bones that every movement was exactly what it needed to be.

 

Then I stopped with one hand in front of her heart and one behind on the GV and concentrated there and just projected Love and healing to her and imagined all the things on the X-Ray disappearing.

 

As I was doing this, all of a sudden. My heart exploded like a firework and the energy spread throughout my chest.

I knew then that I had done something good.

 

Long story short. She went to the doctor after that for another scan and there was nothing on there and the Doc. shit a brick.

 

Frankly so did I.

 

Since then. It has been my goal in life to evolve myself through Taoism and Buddhism in order to unlock the capacities and develop the faculties to help and heal people.

 

Anyhoo. I popped the cork one too many times after that and lost all that energy in the LDT, but Its coming back to me again now as I've been practicing steadily again.

Edited June 2, 2013 by effilang

[Jetsun]

The thing about Buddhism is that its number one priority is liberation from samsara, in the light of many lives of circular continuous suffering then liberation is far more important than healing any problems you have in this life, which is why the majority are not concerned with using Qi or powers to heal and some even neglect their health in pursuit of liberation, some may even view such powers obtained through practice as potential blocks to enlightenment or hooks to keep you stuck.

[XieJia]

There are some knowledge/habits that one can only develop over one lifetime and is lost.

There are some knowledge/habits that one can develop and carry on over many lifetimes.

 

In Thailand, we have some monks that practiced mainly Vipassana which would classify the Venerable ones you mentioned.

It's not an easy chance of meeting ones, it is quite a blessing.

 

Perhaps maybe they are trying to teach you something or two.

The Skandas have their own tendency, there are different causes and different conditions that people cultivated; for each the Dao will provides and take accordingly.

 

We also have monks who also practices Samatha meditations, now and then again they sometimes heals people but normally they teaches people to heal themselves.

 

In the end, it depends on what one have cultivated.
The thing is if you are enlightened, and see the true nature of life, aging and death; seeing the allotted fruitful or unfruitful causes and conditions people have cultivated. How would you help them?

[Maddie]

There are some knowledge/habits that one can only develop over one lifetime and is lost.

There are some knowledge/habits that one can develop and carry on over many lifetimes.

 

In Thailand, we have some monks that practiced mainly Vipassana which would classify the Venerable ones you mentioned.

It's not an easy chance of meeting ones, it is quite a blessing.

 

Perhaps maybe they are trying to teach you something or two.

The Skandas have their own tendency, there are different causes and different conditions that people cultivated; for each the Dao will provides and take accordingly.

 

We also have monks who also practices Samatha meditations, now and then again they sometimes heals people but normally they teaches people to heal themselves.

 

In the end, it depends on what one have cultivated.

The thing is if you are enlightened, and see the true nature of life, aging and death; seeing the allotted fruitful or unfruitful causes and conditions people have cultivated. How would you help them?

Hey I'm curious, so there are monks who practice excessively Samatha or Vipassana? What are the different effects on these monks who practice one type of meditation exclusively?

[XieJia]

Hey I'm curious, so there are monks who practice excessively Samatha or Vipassana? What are the different effects on these monks who practice one type of meditation exclusively?

 

I am not in place to speak for the monks; I can however give you a general impression for the practitioners.

 

In Buddhism, two goes side by side. It can't really be separate.

 

Those that practice only Samatha, can see and achieve wondrous things with their mental faculties. However the level of Samadhi to do this is difficult to maintain; since Samatha is about concentration. If the concentration is not directed to a fruitful means then instead of lessening our fetters, we increased it; it is easy to stray of the path by practicing only this.

 

Talking about Vipassana, there are some teachers that emphasize on this for the general public since it deals directly with self-reflection. It helps one to understand oneself and see things as they really are. This helps put people on the Noble Path.

 

What the teachers teaches depends on the path that he/she took, whether from Samatha then to Vipassana or Vipassana and then Samatha. Some teaches Vipassana first; due to if the person have gain clear experience of the Eightfold path. They then encourage the student to cultivate Samatha so that they can help more people, this goes directly to same content as Effilang's posts.

 

One of the concerns for the masters are that, if they start using their samadhi for something such as healing or other things. The public flocked to them in hundreds or thousands asking to for miracles, asking them to bless amulets, to fix that, to fix this and not for the teachings at all.

 

So some choose to remains in the forest, caves, monastery; or just to guise themselves as Vipassana teachers to be able to cultivate and teach Buddhism and not something else.

 

There are two sides to everything, now and then the news will mention some practitioners that performs that or perform this and gets attention of the public.

[Maddie]

I am not in place to speak for the monks; I can however give you a general impression for the practitioners.

 

In Buddhism, two goes side by side. It can't really be separate.

 

Those that practice only Samatha, can see and achieve wondrous things with their mental faculties. However the level of Samadhi to do this is difficult to maintain; since Samatha is about concentration. If the concentration is not directed to a fruitful means then instead of lessening our fetters, we increased it; it is easy to stray of the path by practicing only this.

 

Talking about Vipassana, there are some teachers that emphasize on this for the general public since it deals directly with self-reflection. It helps one to understand oneself and see things as they really are. This helps put people on the Noble Path.

 

What the teachers teaches depends on the path that he/she took, whether from Samatha then to Vipassana or Vipassana and then Samatha. Some teaches Vipassana first; due to if the person have gain clear experience of the Eightfold path. They then encourage the student to cultivate Samatha so that they can help more people, this goes directly to same content as Effilang's posts.

 

One of the concerns for the masters are that, if they start using their samadhi for something such as healing or other things. The public flocked to them in hundreds or thousands asking to for miracles, asking them to bless amulets, to fix that, to fix this and not for the teachings at all.

 

So some choose to remains in the forest, caves, monastery; or just to guise themselves as Vipassana teachers to be able to cultivate and teach Buddhism and not something else.

 

There are two sides to everything, now and then the news will mention some practitioners that performs that or perform this and gets attention of the public.

So in a nutshell are you saying that Vipassana helps you to understand and apply the eight fold path, while Samatha can give you samadhi and powers?

[Jetsun]

What if a qigong healing has a higher frequency embedded in it. And when a patient gets healed, her soul is elevated, or awakened?As Michael Lomax says about his Jing Dong Gong system, and the medical qigong healings - the ultimate goal is to awaken the destiny of the patient. The physical healings are welcome, but ultimately just a side effect. The lineage is a mix of Buddhist and Taoist energetics.

Sounds good, I know that the lineage is meant to be a mix but such an approach I have not found in any Buddhist sutra I have ever read, meditating exclusively on the lower dan tien and raising the soul seem to be Taoist practices to me, what is the Buddhist element?

Edited June 3, 2013 by Jetsun

[Jetsun]

Stillness/emptiness. That's why one can achieve "results" very rapidly.Curious, does any sutra speak about tummo? Isn't that a necessary ingredient for the later stages of Tibetan Buddhist cultivation?

Stillness/emptiness. That's why one can achieve "results" very rapidly.Curious, does any sutra speak about tummo? Isn't that a necessary ingredient for the later stages of Tibetan Buddhist cultivation?

 

Some of the Tantric texts talk about Tummo like the Havjara tantra, I don't know if it is absolutely necessary, but it is one way to purify the energies.

[XieJia]

So in a nutshell are you saying that Vipassana helps you to understand and apply the eight fold path, while Samatha can give you samadhi and powers?

 

If one have to put them into words;

Vipassana is when one places one's attention on whatever is happening.

Samatha is placing one's attention on making something happen.

[JohnC]

I have heard of buddhist, confucian, medical, martial and taoist qigong's and Robert Peng teaching and training is of taoist and buddhist. He teaches a central channel zhan zhuang posture I'd never seen before. I'm not sure though what the distinction is between them though.

 

It seems buddhist qigong's develop insight and the mind, and body to a degree. While taoist pratices very solidly focus on the body, that then allow the energy to move to the mind. The jing-qi-shen movement... instead of ... well I don't know.

 

From reading about Pang ming, zhineng qigong, Robert Peng, Lomax, Jenny Lamb, and other high level and effective energy works, it seems to me there is a disconnect in availability of solid learning and teaching material in the west vs in china and the like. Also a lack of availability in high level masters which show the markers of a high level master, which I think add to the disconnect in the west. That low level, or slow-no progressing practices are taught, that aren't effective, and people write about their experiences, making conclusions and the mis-information is perpetuated on the internet. That the disconnect in what is considered a 'master' or expert in the west vs China is a big one.

 

When it sounds to me like there is a TON of information that is not on the internet, and around this topic not translated into english yet.

 

Like that Zhineng avoids the MCO entirely and develops the entire body into a dantien, based on that the MCO is very slow development. When the mco is almost all you hear about reading english texts, and how rare it is to hear of someone that has an open MCO. Then that they are doing experiements with chi, and the extent to which they can alter or change things in a highly scientific way with chi blows my mind, and I find very interesting.

 

Or even the development of the ldt, which some consider to be AMAZING AND ROCKET SCIENCE. "Took me 20 YEARS to fill my ldt"... when in a solid practice it should take 1 year to 2 max.

 

John

Edited June 3, 2013 by JohnC