Matter, Consciousness, Experience

[Jeff]

We come from and are part of nature so where does one draw the line?

 

I've seen a cat play with a mouse, kill it (slowly for fun) and not even eat it.

 

Maybe where there is free will or a choice in the intent.

[Maddie]

Maybe where there is free will or a choice in the intent.

Even the simplest creatures in nature make choices

[Jeff]

Even the simplest creatures in nature make choices

 

Do they? Or, is it all conditioned responses? This is an interesting question to me. Earlier you said that one must be "enlightened" to truly have free will. Does a cat or wolf get to choose? To choose, does not one need to be self aware?

[Maddie]

Do they? Or, is it all conditioned responses? This is an interesting question to me. Earlier you said that one must be "enlightened" to truly have free will. Does a cat or wolf get to choose? To choose, does not one need to be self aware?

Yes to have truly free will one must be enlightened, BUT even unenlightened beings still have a will, its just not completely free. In having a will you make choices though one has to consider what factors influence those choices?

 

According to Buddhism all living things have a consciousness and a will and desire pleasure and to be free from suffering.

 

The mention of conditioned responses is actually a good example of one of the elements that causes will to not be totally free. So the cat sees the mouse and its hunter instinct kicks in creating the desire to catch that mouse. That desire then strongly influences the cat to choose to chase it. The two factors of desire and will usually happen so fast that we see them as one.

 

The smoker feels the desire for a cigarette, and then either chooses to or not to smoke, though his will is heavily influenced by craving and desire for a cigarette.

 

Since only a Buddha has fully eliminated craving and desire only a Buddha would be completely free from such influences.

Edited June 5, 2013 by dmattwads

[Jeff]

...

According to Buddhism all living things have a consciousness and a will and desire pleasure and to be free from suffering.

...

 

Is this so? Could you quote sutra where this is stated?

 

Does a flower feel that it suffering and wish to be free from it? Or, does a flower just rest in its natural state?

[ChiForce]

Is this so? Could you quote sutra where this is stated?

 

Does a flower feel that it suffering and wish to be free from it? Or, does a flower just rest in its natural state?

Well, what plants would do in general is try to adapt to the environment by sprouting new leaves or flowers. Plants do not try to repair their damaged leaves. They would just regrow off another nodes. In fact, even the entire stems are dead, if the rhizomes are still buried in the soil with good roots, the plants will regrow.

[Maddie]

Is this so? Could you quote sutra where this is stated?

 

Does a flower feel that it suffering and wish to be free from it? Or, does a flower just rest in its natural state?

Yea I guess I should have specified, all sentient beings have consciousness, and I don't think plants are sentient. But as far as the animal kingdom goes they are sentient.

[Jeff]

Well, what plants would do in general is try to adapt to the environment by sprouting new leaves or flowers. Plants do not try to repair their damaged leaves. They would just regrow off another nodes. In fact, even the entire stems are dead, if the rhizomes are still buried in the soil with good roots, the plants will regrow.

Hi ChiForce,

 

In your above statement, are you saying that the plant has a "choice"in the matter? Or, that it is more autopilot according to it's nature?

 

Thanks.

[ChiForce]

Hi ChiForce,

 

In your above statement, are you saying that the plant has a "choice"in the matter? Or, that it is more autopilot according to it's nature?

 

Thanks.

I am speaking from experience since I am a planted tank aquarium hobbyist. There is no choice in involved I am afraid. The primary purpose of the plant is to grow. When the condition is right, it would grow. I would continue to grow unless the conditions aren't ideal. That's why certain species of plants can become invasive. The way I see it, plants would regrow from other parts of the stems usually rather than wasting energy trying to repair damaged leaves. The plants would have different shapes or colors depending on the level of light as well as the amount nutrients in the soil.

[Gypsy]

Didn't you just point out above that one can't tell in your example? May have been saving from the spider.

 

Karma (and "evil") are found in the intent of the act. Not the action itself.

 

Best wishes, Jeff

in the day, functioning within duality of opposites is considered 'normal' on a collective conscious level. It is the System of good vs bad, positive vs negative. And, as long as you identify with both, your caught up within the cycles of repeats on automatic pilot or unconscious mode. "Brain Fart"

[Jeff]

Yea I guess I should have specified, all sentient beings have consciousness, and I don't think plants are sentient. But as far as the animal kingdom goes they are sentient.

Ok, so animals are sentient. But, on our original topic of evil... Does evil (or wrong doing) exists? If someone chooses to torture little puppies just for the fun of it, is that evil?

[Jeff]

I am speaking from experience since I am a planted tank aquarium hobbyist. There is no choice in involved I am afraid. The primary purpose of the plant is to grow. When the condition is right, it would grow. I would continue to grow unless the conditions aren't ideal. That's why certain species of plants can become invasive. The way I see it, plants would regrow from other parts of the stems usually rather than wasting energy trying to repair damaged leaves. The plants would have different shapes or colors depending on the level of light as well as the amount nutrients in the soil.

Thanks. So plants only work on autopilot (no choice/will), do you agree with dmattwads about animals? Do they have choice, or only respond as to there nature?

[Jeff]

in the day, functioning within duality of opposites is considered 'normal' on a collective conscious level. It is the System of good vs bad, positive vs negative. And, as long as you identify with both, your caught up within the cycles of repeats on automatic pilot or unconscious mode. "Brain Fart"

Thanks, but are you saying that evil does not really exist? That there are no wrong acts in nature?

[Maddie]

Ok, so animals are sentient. But, on our original topic of evil... Does evil (or wrong doing) exists? If someone chooses to torture little puppies just for the fun of it, is that evil?

Go back to what I've already said and see if you can figure out what I'd say lol

[Gypsy]

Thanks, but are you saying that evil does not really exist? That there are no wrong acts in nature?

Yes. we believed we are duality in opposites as reality, past-present-future. But, is this so?

How far is it true that the limitations (duality of opposites) of one's capacity to understand truth are illusion, and that the constant suggestion to oneself that one is divine in attributes and qualities produces the realization of it?

It is the paradox,

that it begins with the end, in order to arrive at the end!

The finest of all experiences is to perceive that she need no longer pursue experiences because the pursuer and the Pursued are ONE and the same Being. Inner experiences are all in time-timeless, doomed to pass away; but she, the Consciousness behind them, behind the ego's consciousness, is out of time, hence Immortal.

 

[Gypsy]

Thanks. So plants only work on autopilot (no choice/will), do you agree with dmattwads about animals? Do they have choice, or only respond as to there nature?

Nature is of Time, Being, or Life-ing comes closes to Spaciousness. Were neither time-timeless. Words will never define the true Tao or being. "ThyRock is never an object-subject of it's own knowledge or wisdom.

[Gypsy]

So, then...why do we (at least some of us, at some times) experience these "different" vibrations as evil?

who's asking? Once questioning drops, Wang Yang-ming: "Our original nature is purely good. It is not possible to add anything to this original state. The knowledge of the superior woman merely serves to clear away the obscuration, and thus to show forth the shining virtue." And again, "The mind of woman is heaven but because of the obscurations caused by selfishness, that state is not manifested.

When all of them are cleared away, the original nature is restored."

 

What has never been lost can never be found. If a quester fails to find the Overself, it is not because of faults or weaknesses in the ego but because she is herself that which she seeks. There is nothing else to be found than understanding of this fact. Instead of seeking Overself as something above-below, before- beyond, or apart from herself, she should stop seeking altogether and recognize i am as I AM!

The moment the questing attitude is taken, with the Overself as its sought-for goal, in that moment the ego and the Overself are put apart as two separate things and cannot be brought together again. But by letting such thoughts go, and all thoughts subside, mind may enter the Stillness and know itself again as Mind-Emptiness Pages. ♥ Let go or function within time-limited thought cycles ♥

[Gypsy]

Go back to what I've already said and see if you can figure out what I'd say lol

when you feed the body, your feeding the ego. Ego harming another ego, is ego.

"Job carried the answer to his own question, "Oh that I knew where I might find Him," within himself all the time, but he did not know it."

We suffer under the delusion that we must struggle, centimetre by centimetre, all the long way to the kingdom of heaven. We stare, astonished and sceptical, when a Sage--Indian, Chinese, Japanese--tells us that we are already in it.

There is really nothing to be achieved here; only something to be accepted--the fact of your own divinity. And, it may take many lifetimes-rebirths to accept this from this in-divid-ual-i-me nonsense of ego self limited definitions we take as identity, that we are alone the body.

 

 

[Gypsy]

No "evil" comes down to the interpretation of the clown's action by the person getting kicked

Maybe the clowns actions, was what you wanted. And, you forgot the quote: "what comes around goes around!" past life's karmic conditioning?!!