Need help with a 13th century Zhuangzi commentary

[BananaMonkey]

Hail all masters and students of classical/literary Chinese!

 

I'm in the process of translating a 13th century Zhuangzi commentary and need help with a few sentences. What I'm currently working on is a treatise on the famous butterfly dream and the problematic passage runs thusly:

 

認周以為非蝶，是未能忘我也。

執蝶以為非周，未能忘物也。

 

I'm confused about who's the subject here and what 認 and 執 refer to: 周/蝶 or the fact that they don't think they are 周/蝶?

 

Any help is greatly appreciated!

Peace out!

[ChiDragon]

Zhuangzi's name is Zhuang Zhou(周), thus 周 was referring to ZhuangZi.

蝶 is the butterfly.

1. 認周以為非蝶，(周 is the subject here.)

2. 執蝶以為非周，(蝶 is the subject here.)

The rough translation may be to this effect.
1. Was Zhou(周) not recognized as a butterfly(蝶)...???
2. Was the butterfly(蝶) not recognized as Zhou(周)....???

Edited June 4, 2013 by ChiDragon

[BananaMonkey]

Thanks!

I was aware of his name being Zhuang Zhou (independently of wether or not this person actually wrote the Zhuangzi) and that 蝶 means butterfly, though

 

My problem is getting the grammar, so if you could explain how you came to your translation of the sentences, that would be greatly appreciated!

 

Peace!

[Marblehead]

Nice thread. I can't help but I am watching.

[exorcist_1699]

My understanding is that there is deeper meaning here : whether we think it is Zhou dreaming of a butterfly , or a butterfly dreaming of Zhou ?

 

認周以為非蝶，是未能忘我也。 ( Think that it is Zhou dreaming of a butterfly are those who stick to their ego/ selves)

執蝶以為非周，未能忘物也。 ( Insist that it is a butterfly dreaming of Zhou , not Zhou having a dream, are those who entangled by things)

 

In either case, the commentary thinks that it is one-sided.

Edited June 5, 2013 by exorcist_1699

[ChiDragon]

Thanks!

 

I was aware of his name being Zhuang Zhou (independently of wether or not this person actually wrote the Zhuangzi) and that 蝶 means butterfly, though

 

My problem is getting the grammar, so if you could explain how you came to your translation of the sentences, that would be greatly appreciated!

 

Peace!

 

I was hoping that you are not asking for more and I can get away with it. However, it would be a challenge for me to come up with a more closer translation for this classic. I will do my best....

[ChiDragon]

1. 認周以為非蝶，是未能忘我也。

2. 執蝶以為非周，未能忘物也。

I can only do the possible translation to the closest philosophical thoughts and may not be exact word for word.

1. Realizing that Zhou is to be not the butterfly, it's not able to forget myself yet though.
2. Grasping the butterfly is to be not Zhou, not able to forget the things yet though.

These two esoteric lines need to be annotated extensively because they are a complicate philosophy of Zhuangzi.

Edited June 6, 2013 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Since your are only interested in how to break it down for the grammar, I will do just that.

1. 認周以為非蝶，是未能忘我也。

認: to realize, to recognize
周: Zhuangzi's real name.
以為非: thought it is not; to be not
蝶: butterfly
是: is; yes
未: not yet
能忘: able to forget,
我: me; myself
也: though

2. 執蝶以為非周，未能忘物也。
執: grasp
蝶: butterfly
以為非: thought it is not; to be not
周，Zhou
未能忘: not able to forget yet
物: thing, matter
也: though

I think you can go from here......

Edited June 6, 2013 by ChiDragon

[BananaMonkey]

My understanding is that there is deeper meaning here : whether we think it is Zhou dreaming of a butterfly , or a butterfly dreaming of Zhou ?

 

認周以為非蝶，是未能忘我也。 ( Think that it is Zhou dreaming of a butterfly are those who stick to their ego/ selves)

執蝶以為非周，未能忘物也。 ( Insist that it is a butterfly dreaming of Zhou , not Zhou having a dream, are those who entangled by things)

 

In either case, the commentary thinks that it is one-sided.

 

Yesterday I talked to my professor (I study Sinology, his specialty is Chinese languange and literature with a keen interest in Daoism and Buddhism) about this. His explanation was pretty much what exorcist_1699 suggested, so the trophy goes to him

 

Anyway, thanks for all the contributions!

[ChiDragon]

So, the west has won............

Edited June 8, 2013 by ChiDragon