The Teacher

[ToastedMaster]

People consider getting a teacher in order to learn. Well, this is not entirely true. People get teachers/masters in order to learn quickly. Musashi had little teaching and no master and had to create his learning experience. If you too want to hold power in your hand, you must do like the men of antiquity and not cut any corners. Only by taking the hard road of learning yourself will you realize that there are no masters.

[Yen Hui]

If you too want to hold power in your hand, you must do like the men of antiquity and not cut any corners. Only by taking the hard road of learning yourself will you realize that there are no masters.

 

Illustrious Taoist Ancestor Lu says:-

 

1 - It is imperative to study the Great Way, for if you do not study the Great Way you cannot escape these

three calamities and will lose your three treasures. So it is only people of understanding who know this

and therefore go in search of elevated Real People who will teach them the Great Way so that they

can be forever free from the three calamities. (The Spirit of Tao, p. 88)

 

2 - It is necessary, however, to seek the guidance of elevated Real People. If you do not meet Real People

who can point out the refinements and subtleties, you will not understand the Great Way. In that case,

whatever you understand will still be superficial, and you will ultimately fail to attain the mysterious

profundities. If you do not attain the profundities, how can you understand the Great Way? So we know

that the Great Way requires us to seek true transmission. This true transmission is received individually from

a teacher. (The Spirit of Tao, p. 91)

 

3 - The Way of the sages is great indeed: open and free, responding to cause, pure and serene. What is the

use of different doctrines? Arbitrary indulgence in fuss and confusion makes the obstacle of doubt, by which

people impede themselves. What a pity that they do not understand and wind up subject to pernicious

influences. It is necessary for practioners to learn from genuine teachers; don't be confused by false doctrines,

and don't take to sidetracks. (The Spirit of Tao, p. 123)

[Spectrum]

Musashi didn't figure anything out about strategy until he was 50. Nuff said. Students work. Guides help. Mentors nudge. Masters (AND peers) push and pull you out of your comfort zones so you can grow.

 

If you're mind is open to the truth, you will learn from many teachers.

Edited March 4, 2007 by Spectrum

[wenwu]

Musashi did have teacher at the beginning, someone to set him on the path, if i remeber correctly his name was Tankun and he was a zen monk. His teaching included tying Musashi to a tree and locking him in an attic full of books where Musashi spent 3 years reading and studying and found the more spirtual path. or at least so the story goes.

 

A teacher is important to lay the foundations, after that it is important that you spend some time alone consolidating the information and fnding your own way. after that a teacher will come to you

Edited March 4, 2007 by wenwu

[Taomeow]

Traditionally, there's no self-taught taoism, it is transmitted (not just "taught"! -- teaching pre-supposes informing the mind and/or training the body while transmission implies educating the spirit). It is transmitted master to student, not priest or writer or professor to audience. Does one need a teacher? Most people prefer to improvise, because a good/real teacher is hard to find, or because a good/real teacher doesn't want them, or because a good/real teacher means discipline and lots of people dislike THAT. And even if they don't dislike it, without a teacher it's rather likely one will spend too much effort on figuring out the fairly obvious and minor and miss out on the not-so-obvious and major. It's like that with taijiquan (e.g.) all over the place. One touch from the teacher at the right time, with the right explanation -- and three years of struggle with a particular move just dissolve, and I "get it" on the spot!

 

I've heard of a teacher who was asked a question about taijiquan: how long will it take me to learn from you, master, before I'm a master myself? -- a student inquired. Thirty years, was the response. Oh... but what if I work very-very hard on it myself? Every day, for hours?.. Then about one hundred and fifty, the master replied.

[Neijia]

I had a fairly lengthy response written up to this, until I realised that I had misread the first part. Ha. Ha. So... in lieu of that,

 

A teacher is not "necessary", but you will have a hell of a time meandering around, making little to no progress without one.

 

(Transmission an incredibly powerful gift - educating the spirit. Very apt.)

 

And

 

I've heard of a teacher who was asked a question about taijiquan: how long will it take me to learn from you, master, before I'm a master myself? -- a student inquired. Thirty years, was the response. Oh... but what if I work very-very hard on it myself? Every day, for hours?.. Then about one hundred and fifty, the master replied.

 

That's a fairly stock answer amongst Tai Chi teachers, but the meaning should be clear regarding the indirectly obtrusive nature of our efforts interfering with the achievement of our goals.

Edited March 7, 2007 by Neijia

[Taoist81]

"traditionally"? That really depends on who you listen to. If one simply asks "where did Taoism come from" then you are left with only a few options. 1.)Taoism is a "received" religion, like Christianity or Islam. Meaning that some deities somewhere took pity on mankind and taught the Tao then it was passed down from master to student as described above. 2.) Taoism was "figured out" by one or more people in the past. Then they passed down what they had "discovered" to their students who, depending on how you look at it, improved upon or diluted the things their teacher had discovered/been taught. 3.) there are obviously combinations of the two that can be imagined.

Bottom line is that the Taoism the people try to claim as "official" is nothing more than the line of Taoism that has been passed down in certain circles. In the legends of the Tao Te Ching Lao Tzu just left the book with a guard at a gate. No teaching, no lineage, just a book and a "figure it out by looking around". And while a master can certainly be of benefit in forcing one to see things in a new way, one can gain the same by looking around for oneself. Lao Tzu says "how do I know this? By looking."

On the other hand you have the Yellow Emperor being taught by his doctors etc. But who taught them? Most of what people now accept as truth is simply the result of trial and error. It is the way of Nature (ex. evolution) and we (nor our religions/philosophies) are not exempt from that.

As for the comments about people improvising because they basically aren't good enough (not liking discipline, not being accepted by a "good" teacher etc) to have someone to learn from. This is simply arrogant. It translates quite the same as most dogmatic religions claim: "People who don't do it my way are wrong/bad/evil/undisciplined/insert other derogatory statement".

We are all constantly immersed in the Tao, it is not some distant goal, if we just look around and accept it. (Note: this in no way should be taken as a slight against learning from a teacher. When they are available they can certainly make things "easier".)

[三江源]

Quite so, taoist81, well said.

 

Tis helpful to have people around one to hopefully add to one's awareness. To break up solepsism, and/ or arrogance.

 

One of the good things about Transmission, is that it can come from a Tree just as much as from a Human Teacher, if one is receptive.

 

Being receptive is a key issue with regard to being taught/learning.

 

Of course the most widely spoken saying is 'when the student is ready, the teacher appears" - and this refers to the student being in a state of receptivity, ad therefore able to receive learning, from whatever source.

 

So perhaps the first question - before the one about teachers - is one about receptivity.

 

How it comes about that a person reaches that condition of receptivity, which is, after all, far harder to reach than a physical Teacher.

 

At least in these days when there are many willing to teach, quite certain of what they know and keen to spread their word.

[Taomeow]

"traditionally"? That really depends on who you listen to.

 

To the Immortals Lu and Ch'ang, Immortal Sun Bu-er, lineage taoists Eva Wong and Lu K'uan Yu and Mantak Chia and Stephen T. Chang and Bruce Kumar Frantzis and Deng Ming-Dao and my live in-person teachers (of taijiquan, Xuan Kong, Mandarin, talismanic calligraphy), among others. They all assert, to quote one of the immortals, "even if you have wings, without a teacher you won't learn to fly."

 

What about you -- who do you listen to?

[Taoist81]

Quite so, taoist81, well said.

 

Tis helpful to have people around one to hopefully add to one's awareness. To break up solepsism, and/ or arrogance.

 

One of the good things about Transmission, is that it can come from a Tree just as much as from a Human Teacher, if one is receptive.

 

Being receptive is a key issue with regard to being taught/learning.

 

Of course the most widely spoken saying is 'when the student is ready, the teacher appears" - and this refers to the student being in a state of receptivity, ad therefore able to receive learning, from whatever source.

 

So perhaps the first question - before the one about teachers - is one about receptivity.

 

How it comes about that a person reaches that condition of receptivity, which is, after all, far harder to reach than a physical Teacher.

 

At least in these days when there are many willing to teach, quite certain of what they know and keen to spread their word.

 

Well put yourself. It seems that Lao Tzu and many other ancient Taoists were simply realizing what we, unfortunately, are just now getting, namely that our nature and our heritage are the teacher once a student is ready.

[Taoist81]

To the Immortals Lu and Ch'ang, Immortal Sun Bu-er, lineage taoists Eva Wong and Lu K'uan Yu and Mantak Chia and Stephen T. Chang and Bruce Kumar Frantzis and Deng Ming-Dao and my live in-person teachers (of taijiquan, Xuan Kong, Mandarin, talismanic calligraphy), among others. They all assert, to quote one of the immortals, "even if you have wings, without a teacher you won't learn to fly."

 

What about you -- who do you listen to?

 

Who should one listen to? To re-phrase your question. Nature. People tend to think of anthills as natural but not human houses....strange if you think about it. As for your teachers' very apt analogy, birds have wings. How do birds learn to fly? Similarly to the way humans used to learn to swim...Their parents push them off the edge of the tree. They either learn to fly or they don't. Anyone who has been around captive birds knows they don't need to be "taught" how to fly, given the opportunity it is in their nature. Now, please don't take this the wrong way. Certainly, learning from a lineage is most likely a safer way to learn, after all when a parachutist jumps the first time s/he is strapped to someone who has done it before. Humans don't often try things on their own the first time. Learning from others mistakes is a useful quality. But, it seems that philosophies run into problems when they begin to assume that they are the only "right" ones (take Christianity or Islam as examples). The Tao is everywhere. No one person or group can teach it any better than any waterfall, river or ocean wave, if only we (the student) takes the moment to notice the teaching.

 

[also, please do not take this as reflecting the specific arts your named. as with western traditions of magic and alchemy, and general martial arts and languages, for a specific tradition one would certainly have to learn from someone from that tradition. The difference is when we are speaking about something as universal and diverse as the Tao. As you certainly know the Tao is not wholly contained in the arts you mentioned. While any of them may have been based on the Tao, so has every sucessful species or culture, even if it has lost its way since then. If an individual wants to learn an art, let them find a teacher. If they wish to learn the Tao, let them open their eyes.]

[Taomeow]

Taoist transmissions don't "teach tao." They teach how to not fly in her face.

 

Nature is the best teacher -- for those who have natural (non-civilized) mom and dad, are born into a natural life, and proceed to live a natural life in a natural environment which they approach naturally, the way they learned to from their natural parents and their natural tribe that are all an organic part of nature. Everybody else seems to say "nature" when they mean "whatever I, personally, choose to believe, do, or say." And whatever they, personally, choose to believe, do, or say does fly in the face of tao unless they had natural parents and were born into a natural life, etc..

 

Nature is the most demanding teacher of them all, by the way. I lived in the wilderness for months on end, for years repeatedly, and so I'm talking from experience, not from an armchair philosophy. The very first thing nature teaches a civilized gal when it's for real is how unprepared we are to understand her and to learn from her. Only then, only when you fall on your knees and proclaim, "I'm not worthy!" --

only then will she start taking you seriously as a student. At least that's how she approached teaching ME.

 

What about you -- are you talking from experience? What have you learned from nature, and how exactly? Did you, too, try to live in harmony with her and found out things about yourself you didn't know, and things about nature you didn't know? Or did you take a stroll in the park?

[Spectrum]

Taoist transmissions don't "teach tao." They teach how to not fly in her face.

 

Nature is the best teacher --

 

Nature is the most demanding teacher of them all

 

 

<grunt of approval towards taomeow>

 

O Mysterious Female ;o)

[Taoist81]

Taoist transmissions don't "teach tao." They teach how to not fly in her face.

 

Nature is the best teacher -- for those who have natural (non-civilized) mom and dad, are born into a natural life, and proceed to live a natural life in a natural environment which they approach naturally, the way they learned to from their natural parents and their natural tribe that are all an organic part of nature. Everybody else seems to say "nature" when they mean "whatever I, personally, choose to believe, do, or say." And whatever they, personally, choose to believe, do, or say does fly in the face of tao unless they had natural parents and were born into a natural life, etc..

 

Nature is the most demanding teacher of them all, by the way. I lived in the wilderness for months on end, for years repeatedly, and so I'm talking from experience, not from an armchair philosophy. The very first thing nature teaches a civilized gal when it's for real is how unprepared we are to understand her and to learn from her. Only then, only when you fall on your knees and proclaim, "I'm not worthy!" --

only then will she start taking you seriously as a student. At least that's how she approached teaching ME.

 

As said before, just like anthills, human nature has it's place in nature. So it is not only in the "wilderness" that we can discover and learn from her. That said, being there, or growing up there, can definitely speed up the feeling of awe that will cause one to say "okay, I'm listening". Though not everyone is easily inspired, that is why Lao Tzu and others decided to write their books. If we were all listening they wouldn't have needed to write anything. The times when humans find themselves in trouble is not when they aren't "living in the wilderness" but when we forget the fact that our lives are interdependant with the rest of the world.

 

What about you -- are you talking from experience? What have you learned from nature, and how exactly? Did you, too, try to live in harmony with her and found out things about yourself you didn't know, and things about nature you didn't know? Or did you take a stroll in the park?

While strolls in the park are wonderful, life with nature (both in the "wilderness" and in the city) goes far beyond that. Again, let it be reiterated, that this is NOT to say that religions or lineages are worthless. As said above, they are here for a reason, people need them. But still, many people can and do listen to Nature and follow the Tao, with no teacher but the Tao itself. One simply has to listen. Please read these statements only with the same respect put forward to you by another poster above. Life is learning.

Edited March 12, 2007 by Taoist81

[Taomeow]

As said before, just like anthills, human nature has it's place in nature. So it is not only in the "wilderness" that we can discover and learn from her. That said, being there, or growing up there, can definitely speed up the feeling of awe that will cause one to say "okay, I'm listening". Though not everyone is easily inspired, that is why Lao Tzu and others decided to write their books. If we were all listening they wouldn't have needed to write anything. The times when humans find themselves in trouble is not when they aren't "living in the wilderness" but when we forget the fact that our lives are interdependant with the rest of the world.

While strolls in the park are wonderful, life with nature (both in the "wilderness" and in the city) goes far beyond that. Again, let it be reiterated, that this is NOT to say that religions or lineages are worthless. As said above, they are here for a reason, people need them. But still, many people can and do listen to Nature and follow the Tao, with no teacher but the Tao itself. One simply has to listen. Please read these statements only with the same respect put forward to you by another poster above. Life is learning.

 

Absolutely, Taoist81, you have my respect for formulating your ideas courteously and thoughtfully.

 

You also have my respectful disagreement -- I simply don't believe that all the sages who repeated time and time again that in the human society "tao has been destroyed" were wrong. Laozi, Zhuangzi, Wen-tsu, Yuandao, Ta Chuan -- they all assert this is the case. This is also my personal assessment. This is also why taoist cultivation, the antidote to this state of affairs in the human society, has been around for thousands of years. The local, thousands-of-years-long, case of "tao has been destroyed" obviously has no bearing on the universal principle of tao's eternal and indestructible nature, but we (taoist cultivators) differentiate between Xian Tian (tao-in-stillness) and Hou Tian (tao-in-motion), and our "problem" is with Hou Tian, the world of manifest phenomena, i.e. the actual as-is human world of here-now. Sure, we have no problem with Xian Tian (the unmanifest world) and don't need a teacher in order to become reabsorbed in the universal tao when we die -- this is, more or less, guaranteed. But we do have a problem with how we live, the generic "we," and that's something that I haven't seen anyone being able to align and harmonize with tao without a teacher. Theoretically, it is possible. But the sages didn't see any such cases even two thousand years ago... let alone now. So, basically, the bulk of my respect goes to the traditional teachers and traditional teachings, which means no disrespect towards anyone who isn't into that, for whatever reason...

[Taoist81]

Absolutely, Taoist81, you have my respect for formulating your ideas courteously and thoughtfully.

 

You also have my respectful disagreement -- I simply don't believe that all the sages who repeated time and time again that in the human society "tao has been destroyed" were wrong. Laozi, Zhuangzi, Wen-tsu, Yuandao, Ta Chuan -- they all assert this is the case. This is also my personal assessment. This is also why taoist cultivation, the antidote to this state of affairs in the human society, has been around for thousands of years. The local, thousands-of-years-long, case of "tao has been destroyed" obviously has no bearing on the universal principle of tao's eternal and indestructible nature, but we (taoist cultivators) differentiate between Xian Tian (tao-in-stillness) and Hou Tian (tao-in-motion), and our "problem" is with Hou Tian, the world of manifest phenomena, i.e. the actual as-is human world of here-now. Sure, we have no problem with Xian Tian (the unmanifest world) and don't need a teacher in order to become reabsorbed in the universal tao when we die -- this is, more or less, guaranteed. But we do have a problem with how we live, the generic "we," and that's something that I haven't seen anyone being able to align and harmonize with tao without a teacher. Theoretically, it is possible. But the sages didn't see any such cases even two thousand years ago... let alone now. So, basically, the bulk of my respect goes to the traditional teachers and traditional teachings, which means no disrespect towards anyone who isn't into that, for whatever reason...

 

It actually seems we agree on quite a bit. Lao Tzu said "when the Tao is not in the world warhorses are bred outside the city" so certainly our society as a whole does not suggest a "oneness with the tao". Bottom line the majority of people, especially now, don't even try to follow the Tao. This may seem to contradict previous statements about human nature being "natural" but one can trust that you understand what is meant by this and that it is not an actual contradiction. Obviously we do disagree on elements of cultivation, though we both know that in the end none of us are without teachers. They come in all shapes and sizes (and species for that matter), we only seem to disagree on particular lineage necessities. That is fitting though, as in the various histories Taoists have been diverse in their beiliefs and practices, yet, like us, they have been able to live together and discuss the Way in peace and respect. Thank you for the opportunity to look at things from another point of view, and for the respectful conversation.

 

edit-p.s. Taomeow, where do you believe the "orginal teachings" as taught by masters really originated? Do you see them as the result of an evolution, a gradual improvement through centuries of trial and error. Or do you believe that individuals like Lao Tzu or Buddha were just somehow special? Also, what is your opinion on the legends of things like Lao Tzu appearing to Zheng Dao-Ling (sp?) founder of the Celestial Masters Sect? With respect, Taoist81

Edited March 16, 2007 by Taoist81

[xenolith]

Seek not a teacher. Seek to be taught.

 

All that is will oblige.

[Taomeow]

Taomeow, where do you believe the "orginal teachings" as taught by masters really originated? Do you see them as the result of an evolution, a gradual improvement through centuries of trial and error. Or do you believe that individuals like Lao Tzu or Buddha were just somehow special? Also, what is your opinion on the legends of things like Lao Tzu appearing to Zheng Dao-Ling (sp?) founder of the Celestial Masters Sect? With respect, Taoist81

 

 

This one is easy!

 

I believe the primordial teachings originate exactly where the tradition (something "all" schools and sects of genuine taoism agree on regardless of their differences in other respects) puts them. I.e. they originate with Fu Xi, the "founder" of taoism universally acknowledged as such by all schools and sects, to whom the most profound truth of all existence was revealed in the form of celestially transmitted maps, Hetu and Luoshu. From these, he developed the concepts of wuji, taiji, yin and yang. From these, King Wen and his son the Duke of Zhou developed the I Ching. From the I Ching, the rest of the taoist method of approaching (and, importantly, emulating! not just contemplating!) reality was developed over the centuries.

 

I don't see any of the later developments as an "improvement" though -- Hetu, Luoshu and the original (circular, and with no verbal comments) I Ching are absolutely perfect, divinely and effortlessly perfect, in no need of any improvements, developments, or re-interpretations. But then, the general belief that any of our "progress" has been about a change "from worse to better" is recent (about 150 years old, originating in Germany and incorporated into educational systems worldwide through monied shaping thereof); whereas for the rest of human history prior to that "adjustment" the belief held universally by all cultures and all peoples was that our current state constitutes progressive degradation from once-experienced "golden age," a view shared by, but in no way limited to, traditional taoist teachings. So technological civilization, which did improve something -- namely, our machines -- was never before believed to have improved on anything BUT machines, and in fact was viewed as a sign of degradation in and of itself, of people wasting their spirit on "improving" all the wrong things... but I digress.

 

My own "area of preference" is the original, earliest taoism and its shamanic roots. A lot of proto-taoist shamanic practices (as well as the word "shaman" itself, alghough this is not the word the shamans themselves use there, they use the word "kam") come from the Siberia-Altai region on the border of modern China, Russia and Mongolia, and some of the shamanic proto-taoist roots still survive there, though hidden quite well... That's my place of origin and home to one of my teachers, who is not a "taoist" but a lineage holder of a tradition pre-dating taosim and feeding into some of its practices and expertise.

 

So, far as I'm concerned, the earliest taoism plus shamanic proto-taoism (which is, in its turn, as ancient as human existence itself) is the starting place for it all, and that's the place worth exploring quite thoroughly... just like reading a book or watching a movie is something you want to do "from the beginning," not from any random wherever place. And that's where a teacher comes into the picture... for without one, a modern human is more likely than not to just flip "the book of existence" to any random wherever page and proceed to believe that whatever is written on THAT page is it... is all he or she needs to "get." Alas, it is seldom if ever the case... This is not to say that one doesn't need to do the leg work and meet the teacher halfway... yes, that's the prerequisite, and the learning you (and others) talk about, the learning from trees, animals, "unenlightened mere mortals," everything --

IS the leg work... but it's not the beginning nor the end of "taoist cultivation," a rather specific (as opposed to "just learning to be a decent human being") endeavour...

 

As for Laozi appearing to the founder of the Celestial Masters, I don't know, I wasn't there! However, the venue is quite traditional, some transmissions (few, but quite a few) have reportedly been instantaneous and did come in vision and dreams. There's hundreds of such accounts in history, and not only in taoist history. So it's quite possible. However, even after such revelation, the work, the practical work (e.g., of creating and perpetuating something like the Celestial Masters sect) is still to be done... one doesn't sit back and bask in his or her know-it-all enlightenment, one still does the leg work... This, too, is something a teacher might help with. Most people are naturally prone to homeostasis, to maintaining whatever status quo, and their status quo is not necessarily in accord with tao, in fact the opposite is the case more often than not...

 

Thank you for a good conversation!

[Taoist81]

Thank you for the exstensive response. A couple of additional questions if you don't mind. Do you see our modern understanding of the evolutionary history of this planet as in line with that degredation? Or do you only apply that idea to society and technology? Obviously most religions see the past as a trek away from the "Garden of Eden" type period and in most of them the great sages have died off leaving only a remnant of their teachings for us to scratch at. Of course, archaeology suggests more along the lines of a slow progression from fighting over food to working together to grow food, to today's continued working together to fight over and grow food (please take this statement as the ridiculously simplified analogy it is intended to be). In the past there were strong agressive tyrants who gained from convincing others to submit to them and today we have a different form of the same. In the past we also had those souls who wanted only to live and help others to do the same, and we also still have those today. As a species we likely wouldn't have survived without both (as your studies of the I Ching and the Tao itself have likely taught you). Change is constant, and one would be hard pressed to argue that today is inherently "better" than yesterday. But the opposite would be just as difficult to argue. Even the legends of Fu Xi...times were bad so he organized things, formulated teachings, or in your opinion he was given them by some type of higher power unavailable to the degraded masses. But the essentials are the same. The world was in a "bad place", same is true now we just have bigger toys to do "bad" with. Look at the histories of ancient China, or Rome, or Persia. Murder, rape, theft, extortion, tyranny coupled with agriculture, literature, music, love, spiritual movements for power or peace. It was and is all there. The Way manifests itself inspite of and because of those who don't know, see or seek it. It is the laughter of the foolish student who makes the Tao "what it is". So while a golden age is certainly a useful metaphor for the spirit and mind of the Sages (in any given period), do you really believe there was one? Or do you simply utilize the great power of Myth?

[QiDr]

People consider getting a teacher in order to learn. Well, this is not entirely true. People get teachers/masters in order to learn quickly. Musashi had little teaching and no master and had to create his learning experience. If you too want to hold power in your hand, you must do like the men of antiquity and not cut any corners. Only by taking the hard road of learning yourself will you realize that there are no masters.

 

Just to touch on the original dialogue, the problem I have with the no teacher approach to Taoism is that of cultivation practices. Most of you have heard me before on this subject so I will keep it short. Cultivations, especially sexual, can hurt you bad. That is one of the main reasons a masterful teacher is needed. If one is learning the art of the sword, there is an expectation that one can and will be cut. Most of the novice solo practitioners of Taoist cultivation don't know that they can develope everything from semen in the urine to a psychotic breakdown by erronious practice of Taoist arts.