Taoist Yoga Discussion thread

[寒月 Hanyue]

reverse is more potent when done correctly. so in very deep reverse breathing where the breath externally disappears, its almost as if diaphragm and perineum are being 'reeled in' by the dantien when you inhale. That is the essence of the fundamental group of mechanisms diaphragm-psoas-perineum.

 

People focus too much on the 'martial modifier' of the front of the abdomen and think too much of compressing the dantien and such.

 

 

Focus on the process and then the outcome manifests

 

Its a quantum mechanical world, so in trying to manifest something we are really just arranging coherent waveform potentials such that the probability of certain events rises - this is called simply setting the conditions for something.

 

It is no different with feeling out the dantian, feeling out the MCO path, feeling the dantien vibrate, etc, etc.

Sorry mate,

 

with all the traffic today I'd missed these gems of pearly wisdom that bear repeating and highlighting! It is refreshing to see this on the forum.

 

I was taught pre-heaven breathing which is different to the versions of "reverse" breathing out and about but is similar. When I asked the teacher if this was the Daoist method that had had things added to it and become "reverse" breathing, they acknowledged yes, while also acknowledging it is always more complex than that

 

I agree with your comments about it 100%

 

I also view the "methods" as simply aligning elements and facilitating a process to unfold, and not steps or stages to be 'done' or 'performed'. Waveform potentials doesn't mean a lot to me, I must still be reading the wrong books

 

All the best,

Edited June 7, 2013 by snowmonki

[voidisyinyang]

And BTW Drew. I said I'd read Taoist Yoga at least 3 times a week, and not 3 times in total. Very funny.

 

yeah thanks for the Wang Mu --

 

so you read Taoist YOga - how much do you do the actual MCO meditation?

 

I would say by far most modern practisers do not get into the real Emptiness which is the stage of "immortal breathing" - I think that's chapter Nine of Taoist Yoga.

 

If you reach that stage that is when you don't feel your body anymore since it is so full of chi energy.

 

So if a person can sit in full lotus in comfort with the body full of chi for 2 hours nonstop then it is approaching this Emptiness level.

 

But too many modern practisers remain stuck on the physical body - the sensations, etc. -- which as Master Nan, Huai-chin pointed out - it's still just the yin chi energy.

 

So that's why he was very critical of the MCO practice because it's too easy for people to just get stuck on the conceptual visualization as a distraction.

 

As the book states - this level is good for maintaining health - and anyway the real practice focus of the book is to still the heart.

 

I really like that Wang Mu points out that the nature of the heart is not moving but then when it is set into motion by thoughts then it becomes spirit - and so this is consciousness --

 

but yeah not until the lower tan tien is filled up does the spirit become spirit-vitality as yang chi of the solar plexus.

 

And so most people never actually reach the stage of filling up the lower tan tien - Master Wang, Liping makes this point also - or so I've read here from some of his students - or on the website of one of his students.

 

So anyway what I wrote last is from my personal experience and so why not post how far you have gotten in the book in practice?

 

The dizziness I experienced is described in Chapter 11 - I never read the book that far when I was actually practicing it since I didn't think I could reach that level.

 

So as Master Nan, Huai-chin points out it's possible for people to go into various levels of Emptiness and various levels of consciousness but that is very different than stabilizing at a certain level of Emptiness and consciousness, etc.

 

For me I am not sure what it means to have permanent magnetic bliss in the center of the brain - but I had been wondering about why I was experiencing more energy in front of the center of the brain - and now I know that is the process of building up the chi energy again - as connected with the heavenly pool with the tongue to the roof of the mouth.

 

But anyway it is nothing like I experienced when I first began training with this book in 2000 - I was meditating then 4 to 6 hours a day -- and also seeing the qigong master Chunyi Lin regularly.

 

Chunyi Lin actually quoted from the end of the book - the part about seeing flowers falling from the sky -- and like snow - and how that is right before the yang spirit is created - when he quoted from the book - I had the book in my backpack but closed off. So I was surprised that he used the exact same phrase from the book and he used that phrase to describe how his small universe meditation had been going very deep. That was also in 2000.

[Walker]

The same with ningshen 凝神, it has less to do with gathering the shen than it does letting go of that which prevents it from gathering.

 

Useful. Thank you

[Harmonious Emptiness]

The "mystical" (certainly the mystical only) view of shen is largely a Western projection onto the Chinese language, same with many terms. There is a weird thing where something in Chinese is quite matter of fact and not all woo-woo, and yet when translated into English it just sounds all New Agey.

 

I'm much in agreement with this. I think a large part of it also has to do with racist notions that all other cultures couldn't possibly have been scientific and practical and that all their science and discovery was a bunch of "heathen superstition" resulting from their "lack of evolution" and "primal worldviews."

 

Seems to me that when these notions are washed away, we will see many more similarities, likely to the embarassement of the Western super-ego finding out they were 100s or 1000s of years behind, which may further delay these realizations.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Useful. Thank you

 

You're welcome, I certainly found the shift in understanding helpful.

 

I will further clarify that, as I mentioned before the shen goes outwards, and goes inwards, and both are natural "functions" or "aspects", they are both part of its nature (as are other things too of course).

 

Often though we let our habits and habitual ways of doing things and Being get in the way of the full spectrum of the natures of things like the shen simply be what they are. Daoism says, allow nature and Be.

 

To me 'alchemy' a much later term, drawing on the terminology of the external chemists, is simply using terminology to describe the felt experiences and sensations associated with the process of dropping away that which is not our true self and allowing these inherent aspects or inner natures of ourself simply be what they are.

 

As JB says, set up the right circumstances and let it unfold.

 

Best,

[Neophyte]

I would say by far most modern practisers do not get into the real Emptiness which is the stage of "immortal breathing" - I think that's chapter Nine of Taoist Yoga.

 

If you reach that stage that is when you don't feel your body anymore since it is so full of chi energy.

 

 

As the book states - this level is good for maintaining health - and anyway the real practice focus of the book is to still the heart.

You said that real Emptiness is not reached until chapter nine. I think that Emptiness must be achieved by the end of chapter 1. By the end of chapter 1, one must be able to achieve "the Absolute Void". It is only when one achieves this, that one will get a nonsexual erection.

 

 

I really like that Wang Mu points out that the nature of the heart is not moving but then when it is set into motion by thoughts then it becomes spirit - and so this is consciousness --

 

 

The practice requires celibacy of the mind - which means stilling the heart - as the first step.

Celibacy of the mind is not synonymous with stilling of the heart. Stilling of the heart is the ability to clear the mind of ALL thoughts--even at a subconscious level--when in meditation. It doesn't just refer to sexual thoughts--but thoughts of any kind.

Moreover, stilling of the heart only needs to be achieved while sitting in meditation. One obviously can't have a still heart (thoughtlessness) while going about their day, lol.

 

One can still have sexual thoughts while practicing about the first seven chapters of Taoist Yoga; the problem is that it will slow down progress.

It is only when one creates the spiritual embryo--which takes place after chapter 7, that one must be free of all sexual activity. Any ejaculation will eject the spiritual embryo, and all of your progress will have been for nothing.

 

If your jing energy is strong from being young and pure then you can open the third eye permanently just by the first step.

 

Otherwise you need the MCO to build up the jing energy.

 

How will I know if I have opened the third eye?

 

It just depends on what level of MCO you are doing

 

I didn't know that there were different LEVELS of mco, although I'm aware that people open different paths. My interest is only on the path as given in Taoist Yoga, as it seems to be the best, most efficacious. However, I also sometimes follow the path as popularized by Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming.

 

 

Also you can lose the chi energy -- not just through emission of the reproductive organ - but also through the mouth and this is why it is crucial to keep the tongue against the roof of the mouth at all times if possible.

 

This is something that I've been thinking about lately, which wasn't clear to me when reading Taoist Yoga. TY seems to say that the tip of the tongue must always be on the SOFT palate at all times (the water path). This is the Heavenly Pool. The Fire path on the HARD palate is NOT the Heavenly Pool.

 

However, I've always been taught to keep the tongue on the Hard palate (fire path) during the day, and the WIND path (behind the teeth) at night when sleeping.

 

So can anyone clear up my confusion? Following Taoist Yoga, should our tongues always be on the soft, water palate, even when NOT meditating?

 

 

[voidisyinyang]

You said that real Emptiness is not reached until chapter nine. I think that Emptiness must be achieved by the end of chapter 1. By the end of chapter 1, one must be able to achieve "the Absolute Void". It is only when one achieves this, that one will get a nonsexual erection.

 

 

 

 

Celibacy of the mind is not synonymous with stilling of the heart. Stilling of the heart is the ability to clear the mind of ALL thoughts--even at a subconscious level--when in meditation. It doesn't just refer to sexual thoughts--but thoughts of any kind.

Moreover, stilling of the heart only needs to be achieved while sitting in meditation. One obviously can't have a still heart (thoughtlessness) while going about their day, lol.

 

One can still have sexual thoughts while practicing about the first seven chapters of Taoist Yoga; the problem is that it will slow down progress.

It is only when one creates the spiritual embryo--which takes place after chapter 7, that one must be free of all sexual activity. Any ejaculation will eject the spiritual embryo, and all of your progress will have been for nothing.

 

 

How will I know if I have opened the third eye?

 

 

I didn't know that there were different LEVELS of mco, although I'm aware that people open different paths. My interest is only on the path as given in Taoist Yoga, as it seems to be the best, most efficacious. However, I also sometimes follow the path as popularized by Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming.

 

 

 

This is something that I've been thinking about lately, which wasn't clear to me when reading Taoist Yoga. TY seems to say that the tip of the tongue must always be on the SOFT palate at all times (the water path). This is the Heavenly Pool. The Fire path on the HARD palate is NOT the Heavenly Pool.

 

However, I've always been taught to keep the tongue on the Hard palate (fire path) during the day, and the WIND path (behind the teeth) at night when sleeping.

 

So can anyone clear up my confusion? Following Taoist Yoga, should our tongues always be on the soft, water palate, even when NOT meditating?

 

 

Great comments. I totally agree with you.

 

I would only add that with "Sahaja samadhi" then there is Emptiness with the mind being cleared out to the heart emptying out - past death - with each breath. This is how Ramana Maharshi describes it - after his heart stopped for over 10 minutes - then he achieved "eternal liberation" as he remained consciousness while he was dead and then he watched the energy channel open up to the heart - to the soul level....

 

This actually happened to qigong master Chunyi Lin -- he did a guild talk video on it that is archived on http://sfqguild.com - so his heart stopped for over 2 hours but he was walking around just fine.

 

So the Emptiness in that sense is not the formless awareness that you seem to be referring to - I don't know exactly how Chunyi Lin experienced it - it sounds like probably like with Ramana Maharshi - with each breath -- his spirit went beyond the heart.

 

Anyway so after he experienced that he said people were saying his healings were much more powerful and this is what I noticed also - but he obviously doesn't recommend that experience for others.

 

Yeah so also I have noticed that when Chunyi Lin was talking he keeps his tongue against the roof of his mouth! So yeah I think this is definitely supposed to be continued throughout the day if possible.

 

The main thing about the heart is that it is the emotion of passion and so what happens is that as you harmonize out the other organ energies then the emotion of passion increases since you are bring all those other organ energies to the heart.

 

So this is a big warning in Taoist YOga and it's the other big issue that I experienced but I did not discover until after rereading this book.

 

I have posted all this on thetaobums as I posted what I was doing and what happened -- on other forums also.

 

So Taoist YOga calls it "False Fire of the Heart" - and warns that what happens is that for people building up their energy then it very easily can be stimulated as the heart passion energy as the spirit energy leaves the body at the sight of the opposite sex.

 

So this is the "illusory agent" because if your jing energy is activated by passion it does not create the actual alchemical agent.

 

You have to have mind emptiness because otherwise the medulla oblongata takes that spirit energy that has been activated from the heart but instead turns it into postnatal generative fluid.

 

So yeah it slows you down -- but if the problem has not been taken care of then no real progress will be made - because as soon as you build up energy then it gets deconverted back again.

 

Also when you are seeing the opposite sex and have heart passion - this is called "evil" thoughts by the book Taoist Yoga - and also it states this is how energy is lost - because your spirit energy goes out of your eyes.

 

I can actually feel my eyes pulsating when the spirit energy is getting sucked out of them.

 

So I would say this is by far the number one reason that blocks real progress in the energy training - and obviously it's pretty difficult to achieve this standard.

 

If you consider traditional Chinese culture - the book refers to only associating with people with spiritual interests - and anyway obviously the standards set by this book are not even met by the people supposedly "interested" in this book. haha.

 

Yeah so the whole focus of the book is celibacy - it's true that if your generative force is full then Chapter One enables "laying the foundation" - otherwise it does not happen till by around Chapter 7 or 8.

 

But yeah this is a very strict book but actually I have found it very helpful.

 

For example - I was reading another Buddhist monk book that said any harmful thoughts need to be reversed right when they happen.

 

And so for me - I just focus my pineal gland to shut off my thoughts - I just focus my mind back down towards my heart - I can feel then the increased pressure on the pineal gland.

 

So I just do that whenever there are thoughts that need to be reversed. And so this needs to be done -- pretty much as often as needs be - which in our modern society is probably more often than not. haha.

 

Yeah so what happened with me was that I did exactly what is warned against in Taoist Yoga - the False Fire of the Heart problem - and it even says what effect that it has on females. haha.

 

But ummm.... yeah discharging the energy as say -- angry -- that's obviously another way to lose energy - any strong lower emtional discharge.

 

You know if you have opened the third eye because you will feel the center of your brain and also you can see light externally - in front of your eyes - as auras around people and other energy sources.

 

But having an "enlightenment experience" is not the same as FULLY opening the third eye which is what "laying the foundation" is in this book -- and so that is why - I think it's chapter six - it's focused on increasing the light of vitality energy -- with more chi energy -- and so not to let your spirit out of your body before it is developed enough.

 

That issue is discussed up through chapter 11 as I mentioned the dizziness - being from the spirit leaving your body too soon without enough chi surrounding it. And so that begins to get into building the golden immortal yang shen body.

 

But anyway that is as far as I got and so I did not fully open the third eye and obviously I needed to have studied the book more but also it goes so completely against the trend of modern society that to practice the book does require quite a bit of adjustment.

 

umm someone with a fully opened third eye is very very rare -- they can then do long distance healing and also astral travel and they can heal serious blockages of other people and they can also see inside people's bodies, etc.

Edited June 9, 2013 by pythagoreanfulllotus

[Kasuku]

drew... how bout this: if you keep mixing yin and yang you can still buiild up massive amounts of soucre qi (one power chi energy - lifeforce energy) regardless of whether or not you have sexual thoughts, cause ur getting the pre-natal vitality another way - then u can unite that with the white light, and sublimate up the orbit to get the golden light...

[Kasuku]

to add - the white light is the negative spirit of essential nature,

this is united with ming of eternal life (mixed yin and yang)

this is sublimated up the orbit to unearth the positive spirit (golden seed within the white light)

this is then united again in the LTD - viola golden elixir -

 

here i come....

[Wells]

to add - the white light is the negative spirit of essential nature,

this is united with ming of eternal life (mixed yin and yang)

this is sublimated up the orbit to unearth the positive spirit (golden seed within the white light)

this is then united again in the LTD - viola golden elixir -

 

here i come....

 

Good input, I had exactly the same thoughts!

Therefore the book's claim that the "white light"/yin spirit is "completely useless" is complete BS!

Edited June 9, 2013 by Dorian Black

[Wells]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuliupai

 

Later Branches of the School

One of the more widely known of such lines of transmission is the Xian-Tian Pai school, whose popularity stems from a book by Zhao Bi-chen "Secrets of cultivation of Life and Destiny". This book was translated into English by Lu K'uan Yu, known also as Charles Luk and published under the title "Taoist Yoga, Alchemy and Immortality".The orthodox Wu-Liu Pai school does not recognize Xian-Tian Pai as preserving the full transmission.

 

Therefore, following the incomplete method of "Taoist Yoga" will only lead to incomplete results!

Achieving immortality or simply the "yang spirit" is therefore impossible with the methods described in this book!

Case closed.

Edited June 9, 2013 by Dorian Black

[Wells]

Guys, throw the Taoist Yoga book into the trash can where it belongs and better read the original informations in the many free articles about "Xing" and "Ming" on the Wu Liu Pai school website:

 

http://www.all-dao.com/articles/strict.html

 

Why do people die?
What is the essence of Taoist alchemy? Xing and Ming. Fusion of soul XING with energy MING

Why do people die, if they have no diseases? Old age is the reason, you may say. But why does this old age come, what is the mechanism of it? A man grows old and dies because he is spending his vital energy. It's like a battery in a toy, when the battery is new – the toy car runs, but when the battery has run out – the toy car stops...And what kind of "battery" is it? It is something that is located in the area of the abdomen in the human body (compare stomach and stamina).

In Chinese tradition “the battery” is called MING 命, translated as life or destiny. (“How much stamina one has?”). So, this Ming - battery otherwise known as yuanqi 元氣 in traditional Chinese medicine, but in Taoism a different character is used 元炁 - the primordial qi*. It is getting spent. And when it ends, then a "kind" man with a scythe comes.

Ming is a tangible real substance and it can be felt, given a perfected sensitivity. Ming can be replenished only by mastering the since Taoist alchemy (just to emphasize that, according to the records of our school, some other traditions also posses such an essentially identical method, ). Note that to "Die" in Chinese is written emphatically: 失命 i.e. LOST MING.

But apart from Ming there is still another substance. It is located in the chest, and any other spiritual schools strive to perfect it. All of them base their teachings on it. It is called XING 性, which is translated as nature, the nature of the heart. In Chinese it is also called 心性 XIN XING or 本性 BEN XING. All the many methods of meditations and praying, stopping the internal dialogue, etc appeal to this. The mechanism is simple in theory - it is necessary to reduce the vibrations, to remove the waves and gradually reach a full peace. If you will perfect at this even further, then you will go into a stable peace, the breath will go away, the heart will almost stop beating and A Yin spirit YINSHEN will be able to leave of the body. This is what actually called enlightenment in the late Chan Buddhism. In addition, this work may lead to the improvement of specific abilities. This spirit is something that in many cultures is called a ghost. This spirit is identical to the soul that leaves the body at death – which is also called YINSHEN.

However, in contrast to the dying person, the spirit of the practitioner is connected to the body. When this out of the body experience happens, and then the spirit returns to the body, there are the certain signs which indicate that it did really happen. However many modern practitioners do not get out of the body, and with closed eyes travel in their fantasies. And that is a different phenomenon.

All religions and the latest doctrines hope for such an out of body experience, hence the attention to MORALITY is so strong. Control the passions - that's their main slogan.

If such a practitioner has not reached the mastery, he, at his death like all the dead souls, will go to a worser world (hell - in Christian terminology). After death the life memories of an ordinary person is not preserved, but the memories of a person, who has attained perfection at YINSHEN, will be preserved. But he can’t do anything with it and he can’t be reborn as a human being again. The teacher for him can only be another Yin spirit, i.e. another being from the lower worlds. The upper worlds are closed for the YINSHEN.

Xing and Ming are the separated parts of the primordial Unity. If Xing is a Yin part, then Ming is a Yang part. The YIN spirit (i.e. Xing) is inert and has no energy, and therefore he can’t rise to higher worlds. He needs energy similarly to a rocket needing fuel for the takeoff. Using only the meditation and any methods tied to Xing only changes the Yin'S characteristics, but makes no qualitative change. The ancient Taoist tradition (and with it those that I have already mentioned) uses the energy of Ming for fusion with Xing.Thus it turns these two into a Yang Spirit , also called a Tao fetus, who has the real potential and can move to higher worlds. So it is the Fusion of the energy Ming with the soul Xing that is the essence of alchemy.

Thus, the goal of alchemy - to fuse the soul Xing with the energy Ming and creating a yang Spirit – a Tao fetus, who has the real potential and can move to higher worlds.

How to perfect Xing you can understand by yourself or from the books, but how to perfect Ming you can get only in oral precepts of your Teacher. And important question is: Why it is so? Because of the fact that the secret of Ming is the secret of Life and Death! In carrying out the practice Ming the person violates a natural law (remember the saying "studying from the nature"). This law establishes that an ordinary person SHOULD BE BORN, GROW, LEAVE OR NO AFTER HIMSELF HIS PROGENY AND HIS ACTIONS, THEN GROW OLD AND DIE. Recall the Taoist phrase: "My destiny (MING!) is inside me, it is not from Heaven!" That is, a Taoist does not follow “the Nature", but instead overcomes it and goes against it.

The method passed on by a Teacher is not so complicated, so everyone can change their destiny - Ming. You do not need a special morality, you just need hard work and persistence. An ordinary person, even talented, does not have enough time to do too much of anything – whether good or evil. At childhood and at youth there are a lot of unconscious, automatic behavior. At maturity, when you just started to get your strength, the diseases and decline start to kick in. When a person reaches the top of his comprehensions of the meaning of life, ironically there is no longer the strength to do something.

As well said by Zhang Boduan: "Human life is so much as bubble on the water; yesterday one was on a horse, and now the corpse lies in the coffin, immersed in a death dream". "Remember the Death" – is one of the principles of ancient traditions. And now you can change your destiny, prolong life. What does this mean for mankind? Is this possible without responsibility?

So, why Xing can be understood by yourself or from books? Because the mind works rather manifestly, if we just watch it, we can understand that it is useful not to be overly emotional; the calm mind brings feelings of purity and reinvigoration, etc. If you go further, you can even bring out your own spirit from the body (Yin of course). However, it should be done carefully, because if a person is weak, the spirit will not return to the body and a death will occur. Therefore, you can learn it by yourself or from the books.

As for Ming, then the person can’t understand anything. He could only feel the difference between a young age and the old one etc, but it is difficult to determine whether the energy flows out, or comes in. To see all of these processes clearly you need to be already a being with the cosmic level of thinking. Every second of life staying in the illusion of a permanence, we actually run on an invisible treadmill. What happens to the Universe, how are the energies change, who does understand this now? I.e. to replenish the Ming a new you should be able to change with the cosmos, picking what assists to this task and rejecting anything else. This is the doctrine of changes of the ancient Chinese. How can modern people understand that, living by a bland clock hours and practicing in accordingly? At any modern qigong you will hear that the time and space do not matter, that your practice of qigong helps you “go beyond the natural laws”. And this is said about ordinary people who are can’t even get rid of the laws of heat and cold, food and hunger, but presume to “get rid of the influence of the Cosmos”!

So then the modern person has no alternative, but to seek a direct transmission of knowledge , which stems from the time, when the mankind have a clear understanding of cosmic laws. Of course, we can assume that a genius who can understand these law without could be born. But such an extraordinary person will not need anything at all from this world let alone a transmission. On the other hand there exist fake methods invented by ordinary people, these methods are usually only a projection of their mind and have nothing to do with the laws of Cosmos. Here is an example: Did Someone deciphered the Yi Jing? I think the answer is obvious.
Hence stem here need for the personal transmission. In this case firstly there will be no distortions, and secondly there will be personalized training for each person. Thirdly, in order to avoid deviations the practice will be done under the oversight of Teacher (and not like today, in stadiums, where participants do anything they want). Also, a ritual of accepting a student is a promise by the Teacher to be personally responsible for his student, to vouch for him, including with teachers own destiny...

古圣有言曰命由性修 性由命立 命者炁也性者神也炁 则本不离神神则有时 离炁
Ancient sages said:
Ming is perfected starting from Xing. Because you need the true spiritual condition to find your Teacher and then to practise, i.e. you need the correct state of mind while practicing.
Xing is established starting from Ming. Without repleniching and perfecting of Ming the true spiritual work is impossible.
Qi is inherently inseparable from the Shen (the spirit). If qi ever comes apart from shen, there will be an instant death. So while the person is alive they are inseparable. (This refers to the out of body experiences of the spirit when qi remains in the body)

The author © Dmitry A. Artemyev

Notes:
* While the character reads qi in the both first and the second example, it refers to a different energy. Doctors know only the post heaven energy - houtian, while Taoists practise with pre-heaven one - xiantian... Therefore, doctors don not understand what is contained in the kidneys, mistakenly writing 元氣. Ming and the primordial qi (the Taoist one) are the same.
Xiantian – pre-heaven, given before birth and can’t be changed in the direction of the increasing by the ordinary man. Houtian – post heaven, the energy that "feeds" a man after the birth: food, water, air, external qi ... a lot of things, but the main thing is that it can’t replace the pre-heaven energy...
Ming is not located exactly in the kidneys but is closely tied to them, as the system of the kidneys is a a part of a reproducing- discharging system of the human body, so the kidneys spend their energy directly for the purpose of reproducing...

Edited June 9, 2013 by Dorian Black

[Wells]

=> YANGSHEN = YINSHEN + MING

 

Edited June 9, 2013 by Dorian Black

[Kasuku]

yep i also find it cool about the mopai method is that you get get the source qi just by continuing to mix yin and yang and this (pre-natal one chi) will not be harmed REGARDLESS OF ANY SEXUAL THOUGHTS! This seems far superior than the sperm method where if you have a single lustful thought they say its an "illusory agent".....

 

So my take is you can continue mixing yin and yang and raising ur vibration till level 30 or however long you wanna work on your ming - then u fuse the white light, then the golden light and continue on the elixir path (or just get super powerful like lim just on the thunderpath)

Edited June 9, 2013 by Jascha

[Kasuku]

but who on earth would wanna go on a 3 year breast feeding task of your immortal fetus where according to the book, a single evil thought will cause demonic states....

[Kasuku]

=> YANGSHEN = YINSHEN + MING

 

yeah the essence of immortality lol - thank god we figured that out...

[Kasuku]

and GOD KNOWS WHATS extracting lead and adding mercury or golden crystal behind the elbows or 9 returns to the jin dan or jade fluid returns to the jin dan (WTF PLEASE SPEAKA DA EINGLIGH)

[Wells]

yeah the essence of immortality lol - thank god we figured that out...

 

LOL! Not to hard to figure it out, one might think! But many posts in this thread sadly prove otherwise...

 

and GOD KNOWS WHATS extracting lead and adding mercury or golden crystal behind the elbows or 9 returns to the jin dan or jade fluid returns to the jin dan (WTF PLEASE SPEAKA DA EINGLIGH)

 

DON'T FORGET TO ROLL YOUR EYES CLOCKWISE 81 TIMES!!! ...because the eyes are the only positive part of your body and the rest of your body is negative!

...AND CLOSE YOUR ASSHOLE WITH A PIECE OF WOOD WRAPPED IN COTTON TO PREVENT THE LEAKAGE OF YOUR GENERATIVE FORCE!!!

 

Jesus, everybody who reads this already knows that the book is nothing else than PURE JIBBERISH & PURE BS!!!

LOL!

[Wells]

DON'T FORGET TO ROLL YOUR EYES CLOCKWISE 81 TIMES!!!

 

Excuse me! I just reread in the book that it's actually 360 times!

Wow, that certainly will do the trick!

[voidisyinyang]

drew... how bout this: if you keep mixing yin and yang you can still buiild up massive amounts of soucre qi (one power chi energy - lifeforce energy) regardless of whether or not you have sexual thoughts, cause ur getting the pre-natal vitality another way - then u can unite that with the white light, and sublimate up the orbit to get the golden light...

 

you will have to be more specific.

 

The book "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" is very specific.

 

I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

What "other way" are you referring to? haha.

 

Do you mean standing exercises to focus on the lower tan tien?

 

That is what the book calls the "quick fire" and that is what you do to convert any impure thoughts -- to purify them.

 

O.K. I was talking with qigong master Jim Nance who has his third eye fully open - I talked with him for two hours on Friday night.

 

So if you listen to the podcast I did with him - he says how the best practice is if you use your mind to move the energy and not use your body to move the energy.

 

He says it's best to use your mind since the mind is more flexible and then you are accessing a system of energy channels all at the same time.

 

He says it's kind of like using free weights to train your body instead of a fixed system that just trains one particular part of the body.

 

So yeah when he said to use your mind - I immediately thought of the small universe meditation which Chunyi Lin repeatedly states is the "foundation" of his practice and he does the "small universe" in full lotus yoga position.

 

I asked Chunyi Lin if he had created a yang spirit and he said that other people had told him they saw his physical body outside when he was meditating inside his house in China.

 

Also as I've stated Chunyi Lin reported he had taken the small universe meditation to such a deep level and then he quoted the phrase used in Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality to indicate the stage right before the yang spirit "makes the breakthrough" outside the body.

 

Anyway when I talk about how impure thoughts cause the yin spirit energy at the "cavity of prenatal vitality" at the pineal gland to then create postnatal generative fluid which then flows down the marrow -- I am not only quoting the book Taoist YOga - I am speaking from direct experience.

 

I can directly experience this happen inside myself - I can feel the pineal gland and I can feel it being engaged to create postnatal generative fluid whenever impure thoughts are occurring and then I can "flex" my pineal gland to then stop the thoughts - and these thoughts are produced from external sources.

 

So obviously that is NOT GOOD ENOUGH -- the whole point I have been making is that the yin spirit energy has to be focused in the lower tan tien to create the alchemical pill.

 

So the quotes from Taoist Yoga clearly establish this -- the method of Chapter One is to "still the heart" to then cause the spirit fire energy to go below the water.

 

But that is ONLY for someone who has a pure celibate mind with full water jing energy.

 

Otherwise then the water energy has to be sublimated up through the small universe MCO practice.

 

That is the MAIN focus of the Taoist Yoga book - that mind yoga does not work on its own because it's more difficult to lower the fire then it is to raise the water.

 

So I think this is what you are also referring to - but maybe you mean to use more standing active exercise.

 

Like qigong master Jim Nance said to me on Friday - if someone has a kidney energy issue then it is better for them to do the standing active exercise.

 

The "moving of yin and yang" exercise that Chunyi Lin teaches is just the MCO exercise done with the hands.

 

So the left hand is the dragon vitality energy channel - the yin chi energy - as detailed in the book "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality."

 

I think it's chapter 10 -- where the mudra is taught of the dragon and tiger channels.

 

So the right hand is the Solar chi tiger channel.

 

So the "moving of yin and yang exercise" starts out with the right hand tiger channel of the yang chi - holding it in front of the heart.

 

The left hand dragon yin chi channel is held in front of the lower tan tien.

 

You hold them there in horse stance and then that activates those channels and then you began circulating them as the small universe MCO exercise - only standing up.

 

So that is what I mean by providing specific detailed information.

 

Now it's your turn. haha.

 

You told me about your experience in a private message - your experience that I put you in contact with - the energy transmission you received.

 

So maybe you should start with that and then why not share the specific exercise you advocate.

 

But qigong master Jim Nance repeatedly states in his qi-talks that qigong master Chunyi Lin says we need to keep "purifying" our energy.

 

Chunyi Lin said directly -- in 2000 -- that in order to build up the jing energy there has to be no sexual thoughts.

 

He said that only once!! That is the only time I have heard him refer to jing energy. Now they just say "kidney energy" -- but the thing is that Chunyi Lin is now more "Westernized" as he calls it. haha.

 

So obviously Chunyi Lin is not going to require his students to have no sexual thoughts because that is too strict - but he does state that we need to keep purifying our energy.

 

So the Sun and Moon meditation of the Level 3 of Spring Forest Qigong is the SAME as the focus of Chapter Six of Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality - and that means after the "cavity of spiritual vitality" has been filled up in the lower tan tien - then the middle tan tien begans creating the yin spirit as spirit vitality.

 

This is not the same is being a ghost - obviously -- because it's very rare to fill up the cavity of spirit-vitality which does not even exist until the meditation practice begins.

 

So the cavity of spirit-vitality - once filled - means the body is filled with chi electromagnetic energy and so already the person has "spiritual" powers.

 

This is also why Master Nan, Huai-chin states it is very rare for a modern practitioner to actually get to the stage of immortal breathing as true Emptiness - why?

 

Because the person gets "heroic overexuberance" because they get these powers developing and then they end up using them!!

 

The powers are strong healing ability and telekinesis -- those are really the same thing - and also telepathy.

 

So yeah I did develp those powers but then I used them! I even pulled this lady's spirit right out of the top of her head - and that was her GHOST spirit. haha. I mean I felt bad about it but I forgot that Chunyi Lin taught to never pull "energy blockages" out of the top center of someone's skull. She immediately bawled and kept bawling for at least 15 minutes - and I had never touched her!!

 

Anyway so yeah as Master Nan, Huai-chin says if the powers are used at that stage then you have to reharmonize your energy again - because you have to rebuild your energy and also focus on the Emptiness more since the more you go into the Emptiness then the more powers you have.

 

Actually Chunyi Lin says the practice can be summed up as one phrase - Use you consciousness to go into the Emptiness and keep it simple.

 

haha.

 

So the Emptiness means NO sexual thoughts -- and so what happens is that just talking about this stuff then makes the energy impure.

 

But obviously so many people can not do this since their heart is not pure!!

 

So then a real teacher will refuse to even talk about it. haha.

 

That's why real energy masters are so rare.

 

The other issue is that when building up the energy as chi energy then it makes the females go into heat.

 

"Sighs of ecstasy" as Garrison Keiller stated on the NPR show last night - he is from Minnesota - but when he said that -- it is exactly what I have been referring to "orgasmic sighs" - that of course is NOT from me actually transmitting the energy. It's just the females picking up on the energy and then trying to suck it off. haha.

 

So the issue here is that this energy is subconscious for people - and so if you do not PURIFY your thoughts then the pineal gland will have created postnatal generative fluid - and so that will cause a nocturnal emission or...

 

I think the literal Chinese is "a mistake in the night." hahaha.

 

So Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and immortality is very practical about this issue.

 

Use physical restraint at the "gate of mortality" -- and then sublimate what is in the body.

 

But if you study this the book says - it depends how much prenatal vitality has been lost from the emission.

 

So that is the spirit-vitality energy of the lower tan tien -- and anyway -- so yeah the more advanced you are in practice then the more serious an emission is because that means more spirit-vitality is lost.

 

Think about it!

 

Qigong master Wang Liping says he does four hours of nonstop full lotus meditation every night!!

 

Qigong master Yan Xin says his teacher at Shaolin also does meditation all night long - Yan Xin does full lotus and his teacher appeared to do the same.

 

Is Haidan still alive? Probably not but anyway.

 

Qigong master Chunyi Lin who trained at Shaolin - he also does several hours of full lotus every night.

 

Qigong master Jim Nance does the same - three to five hours of nonstop full lotus yoga meditation every night.

 

Qigong master Chunyi Lin said if you want to see if someone is a real master just see how long they can sit in full lotus in ease.

 

So then I brought this up in regards to Master Nan, Huai-chin and then someone on the taobums said that Master Nan, Huai-chin was no longer sitting in full lotus very much.

 

Well - he died soon after that - a few years later.

 

Anyway so obviously the body has to be filled with chi energy FIRST before the real spirit-vitality energy can be used to "reinvigorate" the brain - to fully open the third eye.

 

Oh yeah and on Friday night qigong master Jim Nance said that sitting in full lotus will purify your energy the best - it will purify your energy automatically! Qigong master Jim Nance then advocated using the "prayer mudra" with the hands held in front of the HEART - he said holding the hands in front of the heart while in full lotus while then transform every cell of your body. haha.

 

This is why energy masters with the third eye fully open are so rare - because even if chi energy as spirit-vitality chi or yang chi is created - it will get used up first as other people will suck it up.

 

hahaha.

 

Yeah so people talk about how using your thoughts can then stop people from sucking up your energy - and I finally realize from the book Taoist Yoga that this is true - but only if the spirit vitality energy cavity has already been filled up so that the pineal gland energy is accessed directly.

 

So then I can just consciously "flex" my pineal gland to stop the thoughts and I feel then immediately a focused magnetic force in the middle of my brain - and that is to stop the production of the post-natal generative fluid that would otherwise run down the center of the spine to turn into emission fluid.

 

What is wild about this is it is direct experience but is still not proven by Western science - they just proved that females have their orgasm from the vagus nerve connection to the reproductive organ - in 2004.

 

But so science has not proven the detailed connection of the pineal gland to the creation of emission fluid. But Taoist Yoga says that this is NOT the same as creating the alchemical pill - because you then have to convert the fluid back into negative jing energy and then convert the negative jing energy back into yin chi energy - which is positive jing energy as the dragon vitality. that process relies on the yang chi energy from the cavity of prenatal vitality in the center of the brain.

 

So it is just a matter of continuing the process to then activate the "sea of chi" below the navel - that is the sea of yin chi that is stored up there as the potential energy that is then used up over the years through emissions - faster or slower depending on the person and how much energy they get from food, etc.

Edited June 9, 2013 by pythagoreanfulllotus

[寒月 Hanyue]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuliupai

 

"Later Branches of the School

One of the more widely known of such lines of transmission is the Xian-Tian Pai school, whose popularity stems from a book by Zhao Bi-chen "Secrets of cultivation of Life and Destiny". This book was translated into English by Lu K'uan Yu, known also as Charles Luk and published under the title "Taoist Yoga, Alchemy and Immortality".The orthodox Wu-Liu Pai school does not recognize Xian-Tian Pai as preserving the full transmission."

 

Therefore, following the incomplete method of "Taoist Yoga" will only lead to incomplete results!

Achieving immortality or simply the "yang spirit" is therefore impossible with the methods described in this book!

Case closed.

 

Guys, throw the Taoist Yoga book into the trash can where it belongs and better read the original informations in the many free articles about "Xing" and "Ming" on the Wu Liu Pai school website:

http://www.all-dao.com/articles/strict.html

 

Be careful about wikipedia's half truths

 

This is a classic case of offshoot or splinter lineage politics, nothing more.

 

Zhao was also an inheritor of the Jin Shan Pai, another Quanzhen Longmen Pai off shoot lineage from Lao Shan. Zhao created the Qian Feng Xian-Tian Pai after being encouraged to do so by his teachers, which were his Wu-Liu pai teachers. He synthesised all he had learned into his school.

 

"He is considered to have inherited the essence of the Longmen Pai Nei Dan (Bei Zong, Northern School). He was also influenced by the Wu Liu Pai (itself a Buddhist/Taoist synthesis), Chan Buddhism, and the Nan Pai (Nan Zong, Southern School). It is worthy of note that the Wu Lu Pai was only one source of Zhao’s teachings with the Longmen Pai probably being the most influential source. In any case, Zhao’s teachings are not, of course, fully described in his book."

 

We should bear in mind that both the Wu-Liu Pai and the Jin Shan Pai themselves are unorthodox offshoot lineages that have been denounced by the orthodox lineages they broke away from!

 

So for the current Wu-Liu Pai to distance themselves beacuse they think Zhao made up his own lineage based on incomplete transmission is funny, when basically the same thing is said about them.

 

Why distance themselves? Two reasons;

• One it IS a different lineage. Zhao was influenced by more than just the Wu-Liu Pai
• Two, they are secretive, and don't like people reading Zhao's book and thinking they then know Wu-Liu Pai. Fair enough.

As for better understanding Xing and Ming?

 

Well how far back do you want to go? Wu-Liu itself is a later offshoot lineage from Quanzhen Longmen Pai, which took aspects of both the Northern school (Bei zong) and Southern school (Nan zong) and so on. Most of the teachings of Xing and Ming came down from the teachings of Zhang Boduan, although as has been pointed out, many later commentators chose to re-interprete Zhang's writings and teachings in their own way. These versions often greatly changed the views held of just what "dual cultivation" of xing and ming referred to. And it is even more complicated than that.

 

So to actually understand xing and ming will take more then reading what is on the Wu-Liu Pai website

 

Your posts presume that those commenting on this thread about Zhao's writings have not had teaching within the or related lineages of cultivation. It also presumes they know little about Zhao, and have not read the available Wu-Liu Pai texts (not the website the actual texts), or even the traditions texts that pre-date but heavily influenced them and so on.

 

In which case Zhao's writings can be read, critically, for what they are and located within the context they have come down to us in. So why throw them in the trash?

 

At the end of the day the thread is still primarily about Zhao and his writings (or as I view it Lu K'uan Yu's translation/interpretation of Zhao's writings*) rather than Wu-Liu Pai.

 

Best,

 

* Lu K'uan Yu did not translate the full Chinese text into English, this editing as I mentioned earlier, in my view makes Lu as much the "author" of Taoist Yoga as Zhao Bichen. This along with the choices made in term translation.

 

I have found and been taught that many times the preface can be as important as the main body of the text. This is certainly true for classics, so while Zhao's Xingming fajue mingzhi 性命法訣明旨 is not a classic text there are still discussions within the preface that I think would have been valuable to translate

Edited June 9, 2013 by snowmonki

[Wells]

Zhao was also an inheritor of the Jin Shan Pai, another Quanzhen Longmen Pai off shoot lineage from Lao Shan. Zhao created the Qian Feng Xian-Tian Pai after being encouraged to do so by his teachers, which were his Wu-Liu pai teachers. He synthesised all he had learned into his school.

 

"He is considered to have inherited the essence of the Longmen Pai Nei Dan (Bei Zong, Northern School). He was also influenced by the Wu Liu Pai (itself a Buddhist/Taoist synthesis), Chan Buddhism, and the Nan Pai (Nan Zong, Southern School). It is worthy of note that the Wu Lu Pai was only one source of Zhao’s teachings with the Longmen Pai probably being the most influential source.

 

So the "Taoist Yoga" teaching is nothing else than a mishmash thrown together out of many valid ways!

LOL! All valid schools WARN to not mix practices!

So why not follow the DBZ Bro Pai club's methods then???

 

In any case, Zhao’s teachings are not, of course, fully described in his book."

 

So the methods described in the book are incomplete anyways and can't lead to immortality and the realization of yang shen!

Edited June 9, 2013 by Dorian Black

[寒月 Hanyue]

So why not follow the DBZ Bro Pai club's methods then???

 

So the methods described in the book are incomplete anyways and can't lead to immortality and the realization of yang shen!

 

Because what do you know, or have to teach?

 

No offense intended, I just don't know anything about you. If you truly have something, then yes you could, and people do.

 

ALL lineages, regardless of age are a synthesis of the founders learning, both formal and informal

 

Why is that news to people?

 

There is also a strange misconception myth that doesn't want to die, about the nature of tradition and transmission in Asian arts. Especially regarding 'preserving' the lineage, they are not dead, stuck, stuffy things, they are alive and living.

 

No tradition or lineages full transmission exists within that schools texts! That is not how the arts were taught. Nothing new or different with Zhao's.

 

Besides, everything always goes back to Lao Zi, words, spoken or written are always insufficient.

 

Best,

Edited June 9, 2013 by snowmonki

[voidisyinyang]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuliupai

 

 

Therefore, following the incomplete method of "Taoist Yoga" will only lead to incomplete results!

Achieving immortality or simply the "yang spirit" is therefore impossible with the methods described in this book!

Case closed.

 

http://www.all-dao.com/difference-qigong-alchemy.html

 

 

Perfecting the way of alchemy is collection of primordial pre-heaven jing, thereby fulfilling the lost post-heaven jing, restoring the destroyed body, adding oil (tianyu) and prolonging destiny (zeming).

 

 

So what this is referring to is that when the cavity of spirit-vitality is created and filled up and then the third eye is opened up - then by focusing the pineal gland you can then access the pre-heaven energy -- you can use the spirit-vitality energy to then create MORE spirit-vitality energy -- and by doing so you can then "recharge" your jing energy.

 

Yeah because Ming is another translation for Yang Chi or spirit-vitality.

 

http://www.all-dao.com/essence-taoist-alchemy.html

 

So, this Ming - battery otherwise known as yuanqi 元氣 in traditional Chinese medicine, but in Taoism a different character is used 元炁 - the primordial qi*.

Edited June 9, 2013 by pythagoreanfulllotus

[寒月 Hanyue]

I like reading, it's kinda down time for me. Not everyone does.

 

The more you read the olde texts that have survived, you find authors commenting upon the debates of their day. Or they writes critiques of other authors or practitioners within their field of expertise.

 

The image that emerges from this, for me at least, is that there truly is nothing new under the sun. The same arguments go round and round and often persist through time better than the truth they are arguing over.

 

I consider myself very blessed and lucky to have the teachers that I do.

 

Anything that makes you move forwards and closer to the Dao is a good thing, anything that makes you stuck and lose sight of the Dao is not so good. What does or does not do this for you, is well, that is between you and Dao.

 

Best,