Taoist Yoga Discussion thread

[effilang]

Found a really nice website today with lots of different posts on Immortality and such: http://sygz2012.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/dayan-50-yi-jingi-ching-64-he-tu-luo.html

[effilang]

This topic is good! It's exactly what I've been pondering about the past few months:

http://sygz2012.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/longevity-and-enlightenment.html

 

 

There exists a paradox between longevity and enlightenment. Spiritual enlightenment does not require good health. Conversely, good health does not necessarily lead to spiritual enlightenment. According to Arthur Avalon, there are two lines of yoga – namely, Dhyāna or Bhāvanā-yoga, and Kundalini-yoga. The two forms of yoga differ both as to method and result. (Figure 1)

 

 

 

1. Dhyāna-Yogi – It is possible to be successful Dhyāna-Yogi and yet to be weak in body and health, sick and short-lived. His body, and not he himself, determines when he shall be die.

[effilang]

Holy crap, guys this is amazing. I advise everyone to read it. Drew, this guys' posts are right up your alley.

He is a 70+ year old Physician who claims to have created the Yang Body.

 

He is making ground breaking connections between western and eastern science on that blog.

 

What a jewel.

Anyone know if he is a TaoBum member?

 

Mind blown: http://sygz2012.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/can-tong-qihuang-ting-jingwu-zhen_23.html

Edited July 5, 2013 by effilang

[effilang]

[joeblast]

awesome find, multitudes of thanks, effi cool that he also relates the celiac as the solar plexus like I've been saying for a few years

Edited July 5, 2013 by joeblast

[gj551]

do you have this as plain text version? please give me a link. thank you very much

[SecretGrotto]

At which point in the Taoist Yoga Alchemical Process does the Kundalini rise?

[voidisyinyang]

My latest blog post is on my failure to control the "false fire of the heart" issue.

 

Essentially what happens is the alchemical pill or agent is destroyed because the fire-spirit shoots out of the eyes via the heart-pineal gland connection (as psychic yin chi energy) and this causes it to then break off from the water - the yin jing energy.

 

So then the yin jing turns back into fluid -

 

When you combine the two you start to make the alchemical agent.

 

That's why chapter 1 of Taoist Yoga is fixated on the purity of the heart - without that purity of heart then the fire-spirit shoots out of the heart - and reverses the creation of the lower tan tien with the alchemical agent.

 

So there has to be constant focus on the Emptiness for there to be purity of the heart.

 

Unconditional love is the force of the yang qi energy created by building up the yin chi energy of the lower tan tien.

 

False Fire of the Heart - is the fire-spirit as yin chi shooting out of the eyes - and creates romantic love or infatuation with the other lower emotions.

 

So this is called "over-excitement of the heart"

 

The problem is that when the yin chi is created by the training - it can very easily shoot out of the eyes - and then this activates the yin jing energy as internal heat, etc.

 

In fact this is not real activation of chi energy since the real activation of chi energy only occurs in the Emptiness via purification of the heart.

 

like I said - my latest blog post is about my failure to get past this - as I build up the energy I attract more females - and attract more attractive females also and then -- the usual happens.

 

But anyway technically - as I describe in my blog post - what this means is that unless you have the purification of the Emptiness - in the Taoist Yoga book , the purification process means the energy goes down the front channel - but as false fire of the heat the yin chi energy shoots up the front channel - up the front of the spine.

 

So that works via the vagus nerve, as I knew before, it is in front of the spine, but it also pulls up all the lower body anaerobic crap bacteria - along with the bliss serotonin of the lower body.

 

This is not the same as kundalini.

 

As I explain in my blog post real kundalini is only achieved after the yin chi energy is filled up in the lower tan tien - and so the kundalini energy goes up the back of the spine as the yang governing channel - the kundalini being the yang qi energy.

 

That then kicks in the immortal breathing stage of practice - and I think that would be from chapter six on - the uniting of sun and moon - well I would have to review the book.

 

Again I haven't gotten close to that - due to the false fire of the heart issue.

 

I mean I did achieve it (real kundalini awakening) when I did my intensive training 14 years ago. But as Master Nan, Huai-chin says, what normally happens is then there is "heroic-over-exuberance" and then the person "falls back into worldliness" before the third eye opening is stabilized.

 

I did have some permanent third eye activation - again it is only as yin chi psychic energy though - so it's still considered a brain blockage by the qigong master. haha.

Edited December 30, 2014 by Innersoundqigong

[SecretGrotto]

As I explain in my blog post real kundalini is only achieved after the yin chi energy is filled up in the lower tan tien - and so the kundalini energy goes up the back of the spine as the yang governing channel - the kundalini being the yang qi energy.

 

I had the impression that Kundalini coils up the Thrusting Channel, which is different from the Control/Governing channel, and that the source of the Kundalini lies in the sacrum not the LDT.

 

Am I misunderstanding Kundalini?

[voidisyinyang]

I had the impression that Kundalini coils up the Thrusting Channel, which is different from the Control/Governing channel, and that the source of the Kundalini lies in the sacrum not the LDT.

 

Am I misunderstanding Kundalini?

 

The lower tan tien has to be filled up first for real kundalini.

 

The sacrum energy is actually from what's called the "cavity of pre-natal chi" - or the "sea of chi" that is below the lower tan tien.

 

That cavity is the un-tapped yin chi energy which descended that at puberty - as detailed in Taoist Yoga book - so that's when the third eye closes up for kids - when the separation of heaven (third eye via heart) and earth (the yin chi) energy occurs.

 

When they are united then you get the yang chi as real kundalini.

 

As for the location of the thrusting channel - it's actually through the samadhi holographic dimension of reality - so the body is filled with yang qi - the immortal breathing - and your consciousness then can leave the body - or you can say you realize your body exists within your greater personal self outside your body.

 

So then reality becomes an interactive holograph after that - with your conscious via the third eye - able to pick up the electromagnetic energy of people around you, etc. -

 

http://theoryofsexualorgasm.blogspot.com/2012/04/dr-lin-uncovered-mystery-of-sexual.html

 

So Dr. Lin gives his science rendering of the back governing (control) channel as the sympathetic nervous system dominant in male ejaculation while the front functioning channel is the parasympathetic vagus nerve dominant in female internal orgasm.

 

So his secret is that while in horse stance to flex the butt muscles - he shows it in video - but always says that sitting in full lotus while flex the anus muscles also - so that then the males activate their vagus nerve.

 

By doing so then the males become "yang" internally - like females already are - so we can keep building up the yin chi energy.

 

But Dr. Lin doesn't teach real alchemy of course since he says that males should eventually ejaculate - and he is not teaching purification as meditation.

 

So with purification the energy has to go down the front channel so that the spirit fire as shen energy gets under the water energy - this creates more yin chi energy.

 

When it goes down like that as the small universe microcosmic orbit - then it's not till the lower tan tien is full that the real "small universe" opens up.

 

So Mantak Chia says the thrusting channel brings energy up from the feet also - which indicates - it's actually when the macrocosmic orbit is achieved. So yeah that's the real kundalini - the immortal breathing stage of practice - nirvikalpa samadhi as it's called in yoga.

 

But the point I'm making is that Dr. Lin says the governing channel is the sympathetic nervous system going up to the brain along the spine - and is dominant when males ejaculate. That is true since males are yang externally - but if this is relied in it keeps the male as yin internally. So even though that governing channel is activated - it's not actually based on purification - from the Emptiness - which then keeps the male yang internally, thereby creating the real governing channel as the small universe meditation.

 

so if you activate the yin energy of the vagus nerve - it is not going up the back of the spine - unless there is emptiness purification to add the fire energy to the water - so that the "yang jing" is created (yin chi).

 

This is the proper creation of the lower tan tien as the tummo energy.

 

Yeah so Taoist Yoga says "when vitality is full" is manifests as a bright white light. So this is the stage I was reaching - it is the Tai Chi experience - it is the real Kundalini after the lower tan tien is full of yin chi. Then the macrocosmic orbit kicks in as immortal breathing - which means the yang qi goes up while the shen goes down and vice versa. But it also means, again, that reality is holographic.

 

So how it's described in Taoist Yoga is the "negative breath" of the heart - meaning the yin from the Emptiness as "eternal Nature" - descending to get underneath the "positive breath" of the reproductive organ - meaning the yang jing aka "generative force" - combined together builds up the yin chi energy.

 

"If your practice is successful, you will in time experience congenial harmony in the lower abdomen, and all of a sudden the positive fire will soar up from the base of the spine to the top of the head when you breath in, .... this is the ....microcosmic orbit." p. 16

 

So that is describing the kundalini as the small universe practice - after the lower tan tien is filled up.

 

It is still based on activating the thrusting channel though.

 

Earlier the book says,

 

"All of a sudden the heart becomes pure and the spirits high, causing vitality [yang jing] to be overwhelming and the body robust....Unexpectedly a spark of real positive (principle) appears revealing the mysterious gate....The mysterious gate has no fixed position...." (p. 7).

 

So that is when the thrusting channel is activated, but it is when the real small universe meditation kicks in - or when those channels are really opened.

 

So in chapter 3 he says to breath in the yang jing energy up to the solar plexus of the thrusting channel - but there it shud stop and go no further up. So that is while still working on opening up the outer 8 channels to be used for the macrocosmic orbit.

 

So on page 34 he discusses whether yang jing as vitality is "sufficient" or not - meaning is the lower tan tien full yet.

 

If it is not full yet then the real achemical agent as yang chi - the positive principle - can not be gathered.

Edited December 31, 2014 by Innersoundqigong

[voidisyinyang]

"most practisers fail in their training because they do not know how to control this fire which intensifies the very passions which they intend to cut off."

 

p. 47

[voidisyinyang]

So the term for yang qi in Taoist Yoga is "positive spirit." So the yin shen is negative spirit of the heart as fire - it normally leaves the body through the eyes and the generative force is also lost through the eyes.

 

The thing is that by focusing on eternal nature which is negative or yin - this causes the negative spirit yin to descend to go under the water generative force to turn it into yang jing or positive generative force.

 

That positive generative force can still be lost through the eyes - it is still negative over all.

 

It's not until the yin chi energy fills up the lower tan tien does the then positive principle manifest as the Tai Chi - the positive spirit.

 

So it states - Taoist Yoga states on page 78 - if you see white light when your eyes are closed - that's just negative spirit - and is "absolutely useless."

[voidisyinyang]

"If spirit wanders outside, vitality will scatter to become generative fluid, the exhaustion of which causes death." p. 83

 

"When the eyes see a form of love it steals the generative force." p. 28

 

Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality calls this the "fire of the heart" as "evil fire" that "arouses the genital organ, and although thoughts are absent, this fire is not the genuine one...." (p. 53).

So I'm talking about something as light signaling - no thoughts - it's a type of Emptiness already - but it's still evil fire.

"the eyes twinkle and the heart vibrates in sympathy." So the eyes pick something up via light signaling but without conscious thoughts.

Then "as thoughts increase" the evil fire becomes more intense and the genital organ will be aroused more frequently....

[voidisyinyang]

O.K. - more details about the base of the spine for kundalini.

 

The yang qi descends from the lower tan tien via the front channel - functioning channel - to the base of the spine.

 

 

....unexpectedly my lower tan t'ien (under the navel) became unusually hot and most relaxing overwhelming me with great joy....At this stage vitality seemed to but actually did not drain away. Then positive vitality went down and veered to the base of the backbone to ascend slowly. Simultaneously the channels of control and function opened up by themselves. I immediately practiced immortal breathing through the heel and trunk pathways to turn the wheel of law...." p. 103

[voidisyinyang]

This illusory agent is the generative fluid which contains the evil fire that develops when it is aroused by vital force. ...the most you can expect is to improve your health by eradicating all ailments." p. 110

[joeblast]

So it states - Taoist Yoga states on page 78 - if you see white light when your eyes are closed - that's just negative spirit - and is "absolutely useless."

that time I drove from albany to boston in the middle of the night, the mileage marker saying 187 miles to go or something of that sort....well, it wasnt absolutely useless but I knew I was heading in the right direction at a good speed

[effilang]

that time I drove from albany to boston in the middle of the night, the mileage marker saying 187 miles to go or something of that sort....well, it wasnt absolutely useless but I knew I was heading in the right direction at a good speed

 

It is not absolutely useless, in fact, not at the least. But in the context of Yang Shen being the final goal of this part of the practice as described in this book, the author emphasized this on purpose; so as not to let the practitioner become entrapped in the wonders and skills produced at this stage of development, of which there are many; such as spirit projection, and like Joe said, it is a measure of progress.

Edited December 31, 2014 by effilang

[voidisyinyang]

I'm not sure about the "good speed" conclusion because you can easily have an accident, get delayed or lost, etc.

 

"The generative force which is still immature can not produce the white light of vitality...." p. 122

 

The point being if you only see light internally and not externally - the internal light is called the "relative void" and that's why it's absolutely useless - it is not a permanent transformation as occurs when the generative force is full.

 

So when the lower tan tien fills with yin chi then you hit the Tai Chi as an enlightenment experience and you achieve the "absolute void" as real Emptiness - seeing light outside of your body.

 

"if thoughts are allowed to rise during meditation, outside air will enter the body and blow out the light." p. 123

 

This indicates just how difficult this training is - what he is talking about is bad energy lowering the frequency in the body - caused by the mind not being strong enough to protect against it - not maintaining concentration.

 

So the analogy of a road trip is not accurate in my opinion.

 

My experience is the metaphor of climbing a mountain - 10% of Everest climbers die from the experience.

 

The higher you go the more dangerous it is.

 

"It is very difficult for the practiser to refrain from using this manifesting vitality (which is tempting). He has to bury the heart (the seat of the fire of passion) in order to resurrect (essential) nature."

 

p. 152

 

So that vitality is the light that can be seen in front of him - outside of his body.

 

And we can say at this point - and since the beginning - for the real training -

 

there should be no goal pursued at all - no mountaintop nor destination.

 

"His discrimination and likes and dislikes will cause demonic states to manifest thereby destroying all previous progress....This is the death of consciousness leading to the resurrection of (essential) nature." p. 153

 

What I find fascinating is that at the end of the practice it states:

 

"concentrating on the demonic light to suck it into his body in order to transmute it into positive light. As time passes this demonic light will be purified and transformed into the light of positive spirit which will sustain the foetus in its full development." p. 173

 

This is exactly what I was wondering about when I saw the original qigong master - he had dead people as spirits hovering around him and yet at the same time the original qigong master kept creating more yin spirits out of the top of his head that he sent out to heal people - individualized spirit healing.

 

So then when the original qigong master explained that he was sending the dead people back into the Emptiness - I wondered if he was actually sucking them into his body and transforming them into positive spirit (golden light as the prenatal vitality Emptiness) and then sending out yin spirits from that energy - light of vitality - to heal people.

 

I think that above statement confirms that to be the case.

 

"You have realised only the negative spirit which appears during the preliminary stages of the practice. When you close your eyes and see a white light in front of you it is negative spirit which is absolutely useless....restore the generative force to invigorate the brain so that the positive spirit manifests....If you wrongly search for the negative spirit by closing your eyes to look into the (relative) emptiness of the void it will lead to (the realm of) birth and death which is in the province of consciousness; you then will achieve nothing until you die." pp. 78-9.

 

"the production of post-natal negative spirit results in consciousness." p. 79

 

"inertness to false voidness leads." p. 48

 

"Voidness which does not radiate [outside of the body] is relative but voidness which radiates is absolute. Absolute voidness is not empty like relative voidness. Voidness that is not empty is spiritual light which is spirit-vitality that springs from the yellow hall centre (huang ting or middle tan t'ien in the solar plexus)." p. 3

 

So that doesn't happen until the lower tan tien is filled up with the positive generative force - yang jing or yin chi energy.

[SecretGrotto]

"10 THE METHOD OF GATHER VITALITY

 

When (vital) breath vibrates and the penis stands erect, the practiser should press his middle fingers on the dragon and tiger cavities (in the centres of the two palms) raise his tongue to the palate to make a bridge linking with the channel of control, look up and to the left, breathe in to raise (vitality) to the region of the brain (ni wan) and then breathe out to lower it to the mortal gate (at the root of the penis). After several such ascents and descents, the genital organ will retract."

 

 

Taoist Yoga changed my life, precisely because of this instruction. I consider myself fairly well read in the field of esoterics, but sometimes instruction needs to emphasized properly to stand out. Taoist Yoga emphasizes the method of gathering vitality, which is the key to get the alchemical process started, since it gathers the fuel for the process.

 

A big problem I've had over the years is precisely this, gather vitality, because "generative force seeks an outlet" and I would get frequent erections that would would culminate in the stirring of desire. I did not know how to deal with the Morning Wood properly, which constantly resulted in the leaking of the generative force.

 

With this profound instruction I now have a way to quickly and effectively sublimate the generative force so that it is not leaked. This is most valuable and for the first time in my life I can properly feel vitality gathering and Qi moving in my body and healing taking place.

 

This is a golden key, together with the stilling of the heart and desires.

[joeblast]

analogies are only loosely applicable anyway. and a loose analogy? haha

 

 

sg, morning wood, the vitality circulation is in there.

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/13357-banter/page-6#entry352612

[SkyReach]

I would say it is 95% focused on refining energy by circulating it through different combinations of the meridians.

 

Some of these are conventional orbits, like the Macro and Micro orbits, but many of them in the book are connections between meridians and Dan Tiens, that I have never come across before.

 

A great deal of the book concentrates on laying the foundation, by balancing the yin and yang organs and it concentrates heavily on rooting the body energetically into the earth to create the proper foundation and connection to the Yin Qi of the earth.

 

Then after that there are practices to connect to the Yang Qi, then basic, intermediary and advanced methods of beating and drumming the Qi meditations and others used to combine The Yin Qi and the Yang Qi in the Dan Tien and fuse them together.

 

Once the foundation is laid, then one can begin cultivation of the immortal arts (as we know it in the Taoist Yoga). Although what you get in JAJs current book is in a lot more detail and rather than using a lot of symbolic wording he approaches things from a Chinese and Western medical point of view, that just MAKES sense logically, without the need for ambiguity.

 

I will post more : )

Hello, Im new around here so I don't really understand a lot of the abbreviations. Whos is JAJ and what book are you talking about? Thanks!

[effilang]

Hello, Im new around here so I don't really understand a lot of the abbreviations. Whos is JAJ and what book are you talking about? Thanks!

 

I was referring to Daoist Internal Alchemy, by Jerry Alan Johnson.

[silent thunder]

That book is absolutely incredible.

[effilang]

That book is absolutely incredible.

 

His Daoist Magic Transformation Skills, is also really, really good.

[SecretGrotto]

"Again I put another question, 'We all know the saying that if the fertilizing fluid (Jing) is sufficient you desire no sexual activities, and Qi sufficient you no longer desire the food, and pre-heaven mind-will sufficient you won't sleep any more, would you please tell us how to make the three sufficient enough and how to know that the three are sufficient? '

My master observed, 'The revolution of small waterwheel, like the furling and unfurling of a bellows, plays a magnificent part in replenishing the Qi which, accumulating in lower elixir field, will reach the height of its growth sooner or later. When there is no fertilizing fluid (Jing) emerging Hui Yin acupoint will automatically close up, and the penis will gradually shrink till it has the same size as like a baby.

 

Generally speaking, a male baby never possesses sexual desire, of which everybody knows. This phenomenon can be used to solve the question why a man, who has obtain the sufficient Qi and converted all fertilizing fluid (Jing), will never have the sexual desire." - http://www.taoiststudy.com/content/step-5-administer-fertilizing-fluid-jing2

 

 

Can it then be said that the condensation of Qi into Generative Force/Jing is a habit of the body, which is gradually stopped after sufficient sublimation of Jing into Qi because that maybe signals the body to stop the habit and not produce Jing anymore?

 

Or is it specifically Generative Fluid that has to stop appearing at Hui Yin before sexual desire ceases, and that general Jing is still produced to fuel other aspects of physicality?

 

 

EDIT:

 

I refer to 'The Way to Eternity' at www.taoiststudy.com because there are many parallels to 'Taoist Yoga', sometimes it seems to even be quoting almost directly from it just with different terms and translation.

 

Fertilizing fluid (Jing) in the above may refer to Generative Fluid, and thus, when all Generative Fluid has been converted into Generative Force->Qi, and no more Generative Fluid appears then Hui Yin will close naturally. So the condensation of Generative Force into Generative Fluid is the habit of the body that can be stopped so that no more Generative Fluid exists.

 

However, when the paragraph says: "if the fertilizing fluid (Jing) is sufficient you desire no sexual activities," fertilizing fluid in this case must mean Generative Force, because if you have sufficient Generative Fluid it seems like you will definitely be prone to seeking a sexual outlet.

 

 

"If you mistake the revolving of small waterwheel for the method that can be applicable for the whole process of converting the fertilizing fluid (Jing) to Qi, you are immensely mistaken, because the invention of it mainly aims at refilling fertilizing fluid (Jing) and compensating for the previous loss of fertilizing fluid (Jing) by the previous unrestricted indulgence in the desires and emotions, and partially transforming fertilizing fluid (Jing) to Qi.

 

So here we can conclude that the small waterwheel makes up the initial means while harvesting Qi the subsequent one which, after the fertilizing fluid (Jing) has been restored to sufficiency, will supersede the former and be used for fully conversing from fertilizing fluid (Jing) to Qi." - http://www.taoiststudy.com/content/step-6-harvest-pre-heaven-vital-energy

 

Above states that the Channel MCO/SHO is used to produce pre-heaven fertilizing fluid (Jing) or Yang Jing/Generative Force, which is really interesting, since the MCO moves Yang Qi in the Ren and Du channels so how would that produce Yang Jing?

 

For sublimating Generative Force into Yin Qi firing the LDT is the main technique:

 

"As soon as the pre-heaven Qi, in the form of pre-heaven fertilizing fluid (Jing), has been hoarded up in lower elixir field, practitioner should at once put into practice the method of transforming the pre-heaven fertilizing fluid (Jing). Settle your mind-will in lower elixir field, attach a good deal of attention to breathing in and breathing out---both processes should be carried out smoothly and extensively, not violently and hastily in the least.

 

Launching the breathing in with mind-will ascending the Du Channel, and breathing out with your mind-will descending the Ren Channel. Breathing in and then breathing out for about thirty-six or seventy-two times you will get the feeling that the lower elixir field, of its own accord, begins to engage in the action of breathing in and breathing out as does the lung. Perceiving this practitioner should terminate the acquired breathing and again slip into profound stillness to put into practice moderate fire."

 

 

 

 

Edited January 11, 2015 by SecretGrotto