Taoist Yoga Discussion thread

[voidisyinyang]

Yes Drew, what "you" wrote, you are the author of your blog post are you not?

 

You can quote bits of a book all you want, but the interpretation and the message being given is yours, not the book authors.

 

Their interpretation and message is, well, THE BOOK.

 

Everyone is responsible and should take ownership of what they present, it is YOUR understanding. That you read a book and feel it has the same understanding is fine.

 

If someone spends day after day filming a group of people and interviewing them, and then edits a film choosing what to include of what they said, or what to remove of what they said. Who's view is it? Is it the groups, or is it the director/editor of the film? Since they actually choose what to include and what to cut, and the order in which to present those things?

 

I was taught that it is the latter. So yes I view your blogpost as yours, and your view despite being heavily potted with quotes of Lu K'uan Yu's interpretation and translation of Zhao Bichen's writings. I apologise if that actually offends you, as it is not meant to be offensive

 

Nor did I feel that by referring to your blog post as yours (I would have thought it clear that when I say "what you wrote", I am in fact referring to what you wrote and not the quotations), that it would be necessary for you to re-edit your blog, so apologies for making you feel that way.

 

I value your thoughts and insights and appreciate you going to all the trouble that you do to explain things. But to then say it is definitive and the only true way to read a book, I have to disagree with that, even if I overall agree with your view of the book. It may be a higly informed and valuable way to read the book, but I still don't view it as definitive.

 

Yep "I" just changed my "own" words thanks to your clarification:

 

 

O.K. fair enough - so the erroneous claim was that the focus of chapter one was on first filling the upper tan t'ien. But we see here that the "cauldron" is also the tan t'ien and that starts with the lower tan t'ien. So how can the "cavity of spirit" be the alchemical cauldron in the beginning of the practice? It can't! Chapter One refers to this upper tan t'ien cavity in the middle of the brain as "the cavity of prenatal vitality" -- but as is confirmed below "prenatal vitality" has to be built up first from the lower tan t'ien.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Regarding 'stilling/calming the heart',

 

How do we do this?

 

I don't think anyone has gone there as succinctly as JB in his original post!

 

Chapter One opens with fixing the spirit in the zu qiao, original cavity of spirit in between the eyes. Withdrawing the senses so as to have the best start when preparing the elixir of immortality.

 

It is the focusing of this at the cavity of vitality that produces the true vitality and the accumulation of such, and after long training, unites with eternal life to become one whole.

 

Just this one simple tactic is half the battle...

 

Let's proceed

 

The problems lie with the fact that it appears some have read "fixing the shen in the zu qiao" as being upper dantian work when it is not, as Drew explains in depth.

 

Quite simply you cannot truly calm or still the heart unless you allow the shen to return/gather, or put another way, drop whatever it is that is stopping and preventing the shen from returning. And the way that the old Ch'an and Daoist practitioners did this was with awareness of zuqiao.

 

If the shen is still emitting outwards (primarily through the eyes) how can you calm it and still it so it sinks and dantian fills? You can, but how much?

 

It is not even, in my opinion, a 1-2. Returning the shen with zu qiao IS calming the heart, calming the heart IS returning the shen with zu qiao. The same as both of these IS filling the dantian [from above]. They are ONE thing, but three aspects. Stages are an illusion, even if we experience them that way. Wrap your head around that one

 

This is why you need to read the whole book and re-read it, and re-read it and go in circles, because what you need at the 'beginning' is later, but to get there you need to start somewhere.

 

 

And yes, that is my opinion, it is an informed one and have good reasons for it, but it is mine.

Edited June 6, 2013 by snowmonki

[voidisyinyang]

Also clearly the focus of this book is celibacy so any one married can not truly consider this book in a sincere fashion.

 

Is anyone married commenting on this thread or did someone married start this thread?

 

If you're married then why are you wasting your time on this book that is focused on celibacy?

 

Are you misleading people?

 

 

I don't think anyone has gone there as succinctly as JB in his original post!

 

I think JB is married.

Edited June 6, 2013 by pythagoreanfulllotus

[joeblast]

"consider in a serious fashion"

 

so are you insinuating that my interpretations of some of this material is invalid since I am married?

[寒月 Hanyue]

so are you insinuating that my interpretations of some of this material is invalid since I am married?

 

Apparently. But no-one apart from Drew ever understands this stuff

 

I'm not married, but I'm beginning to feel that way!

 

So I'm done, time for practice.

 

Best to all

Edited June 6, 2013 by snowmonki

[joeblast]

its especially confusing when the context keeps getting changed. there's many steps along the way and to discuss some things without providing context, that's where many misconceptions lie.

 

so drew, its helping noone and is honestly providing chidragonish definition-opacity to the context when things like "fixing the spirit at the seat of awareness" and "precious cauldron" and "stilling the heart mind" and "using the upper dt to focus upon the lower" aka the sotgf reference I gave of finding the sunlight in the chamber of water have their context conflated and changed upon a whim with no mention of the context having changed. a while back we began discussing the singular consideration of fixing the spirit at the seat of awareness, and instead of letting that clarification of terms play out, saying there needs to be focus on vitality in the lower....and now the context du jour has moved on to "the correct method" (and no mention of the correct method for what) is stilling the heart mind.

 

do you not see how this appears that YOU drew are intentionally trying to confuse people???

 

*facepalm* do us all a favor and drop your ego on this and stop being obstinate about others not being right along in lockstep on your choice of context for the day.

[Friend]

Edited August 17, 2013 by Friend

[Wells]

Apparently. But no-one apart from Drew ever understands this stuff

 

Drew doesn't understand, he misinterprets.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Dorian Black

[Friend]

Edited August 17, 2013 by Friend

[voidisyinyang]

True nature is prenatal vitality in its cell (ch'i pao) on the top of the medulla oblongata. If vitality is allowed to pass through the back of the head and down to the base of the spine to drain away through the anus and genital organ, its exhaustion will cause death....When the heart is stirred by sexual desires, it is impossible to draw back this vital force which will drain down in the marrow of the spine to leave the body;

 

p. 66, chapter six

 

"True nature is prenatal vitality in its cell (ch'i pao) on the top of the medulla oblongata. If vitality is allowed to pass through the back of the head and down to the base of the spine to drain away through the anus and genital organ, its exhaustion will cause death....When the heart is stirred by sexual desires, it is impossible to draw back this vital force which will drain down in the marrow of the spine to leave the body;"

 

 

The "correct method" of Chapter One is to still the heart.

 

 

Answer: Chapter I deals with 'fixing spirit in its original cavity', for man's body, spirit, intellect, incorporeal (hun) and corporeal ('po) souls are all negative (yin) and obey the heart's impulses. When the heart is still so are all these five, but when it moves they all move as well....;hence the saying: 'the cultivation of heart to preserve eternal nature'.

 

"Answer: Chapter I deals with 'fixing spirit in its original cavity', for man's body, spirit, intellect, incorporeal (hun) and corporeal ('po) souls are all negative (yin) and obey the heart's impulses. When the heart is still so are all these five, but when it moves they all move as well....;hence the saying: 'the cultivation of heart to preserve eternal nature'."

 

 

Then what sort of training should be undergone (to realise it)? The correct method consists of closing both eyes to still the heart (mind) so that the tsu ch'iao cavity can be held onto until the light of (essential) nature appears to confirm its effectiveness.

 

"Then what sort of training should be undergone (to realise it)? The correct method consists of closing both eyes to still the heart (mind) so that the tsu ch'iao cavity can be held onto until the light of (essential) nature appears to confirm its effectiveness."

 

page five, chapter one

Edited June 6, 2013 by pythagoreanfulllotus

[joeblast]

I think the thing is, this appears to be a matter of creating, cultivating an energy potential, and if the potentials falters then it drops considerably. The body is programmed to manifest generative fluid and only when its filled and 'capped off' so to speak is when additional potentials are thus possible. So if one progresses to the point at which the signs of say for example the inner alchemical agent initiating production and then loses the capped off potential, the body will then turn around and utilize that which has been created in order to again restore the generative potential - effectively collapsing the higher congealed potential that is the mix of ingredients.

 

To me it does not sound like celibacy is only a good way, but basically the only way the alchemical agents are produced.

 

Almost the same as if one waits too long to do the gathering process, or sullies the potential by doing the gathering process before the potential is matured. The potential is not at its waxing yang to take advantage of the potential.

[voidisyinyang]

"..the practiser will be aware of the presence of the circle of light....The Taoist Scriptures state: This cavity lies in the centre between heaven (head) and earth (lower abdomen) in the human body."

 

page 69, Chapter Seven.

 

That's the HEART.

 

"I said: 'If you restart your training from the first step (Chapter I) to remedy this loss, you will still succeed later on, but if you do not start all over again, you will return home to wait for death because there is no other method. When I gave you instruction, I told you that if the genital organ quivers, you should guard against losing the positive principle at night and urged you to practice the tenth step (given in this chapter) to gather vitality."

 

p. 105, Chapter Ten.

[joeblast]

Its a pity this was spawned off of another thread and didnt arise of its own naturally in an unclouded fashion.

 

Or perhaps it was overripe so the manifestation was coming one way or another

 

Drew, you can stop with your current line. Let's start again in a more constructive fashion. Why not compile a list of techniques that correspond to the right set of method-requirement for each stage of the practice?

 

we can even start with settling the heart-mind

Edited June 6, 2013 by joeblast

[hydrogen]

Drew, you can stop with your current line. Let's start again in a more constructive fashion. Why not compile a list of techniques that correspond to the right set of method-requirement for each stage of the practice?

 

we can even start with settling the heart-mind

 

Good idea. Too bad, I can't contribute much because I'm in the free style group.

 

I do appreciate you guys build the steps and landmarks, so I know where I am in the process.

[Neophyte]

So, during the process of Taoist Yoga, should we use normal abdominal breathing, or reverse abdominal breathing?

 

And, during the mco, should the outer alchemical agent go through the center of the spine (inside)?

 

When it reaches the top of the spine, does it go THROUGH the tsu ch'iao, or above it? If it goes above it, how much higher in the brain is it supposed to be?

[voidisyinyang]

So, during the process of Taoist Yoga, should we use normal abdominal breathing, or reverse abdominal breathing?

 

And, during the mco, should the outer alchemical agent go through the center of the spine (inside)?

 

When it reaches the top of the spine, does it go THROUGH the tsu ch'iao, or above it? If it goes above it, how much higher in the brain is it supposed to be?

 

 

The practice requires celibacy of the mind - which means stilling the heart - as the first step.

 

If your jing energy is strong from being young and pure then you can open the third eye permanently just by the first step.

 

Otherwise you need the MCO to build up the jing energy.

 

It just depends on what level of MCO you are doing.

 

Yes at first you use the breath to push down - reverse breathing - on the in breath and this then sublimates the jing energy up the spine to cleanse it.

 

At first you are doing the MCO just to still the mind - to purify the heart energy - but it's not until the jing energy is finally built up in the lower tan tien that you can then actually create the alchemical agent.

 

So when there is a quivering in the reproductive organ this means it is the yin chi energy or "positive principle" in the jing energy - and so that needs to be sublimated or else it will get deconverted back into negative jing energy that is lost at night.

 

So the quivering in the reproductive organ is only when the heart is purified by stilling the heart and the thoughts - through the MCO practice.

 

If there are any "licentious" thoughts or "perverse" thoughts then the quivering of the reproductive organ is an illusory agent and so the sublimation process is only to purify the energy but it is not the actual alchemical agent.

 

Also you can lose the chi energy -- not just through emission of the reproductive organ - but also through the mouth and this is why it is crucial to keep the tongue against the roof of the mouth at all times if possible.

 

So this practice is for SINGLE MALES ONLY and also it is only for heart-mind celibacy - virtue of the heart -- stilling the heart.

 

So as I quoted - the prenatal vitality manifests in the cavity of spirit at the top of the medulla oblongata - this is where the "seed" of the prenatal vitality is - the pineal gland in the center of the brain.

 

But when there is passion from seeing the opposite sex or talk that is perverted or licentious then it causes the prenatal vitality that would be building up to open the third eye in the middle of the brain - it causes that to instead travel down the marrow of the spine to then deconvert the generative force or negative jing energy into reproductive emission.

 

So any thoughts or energy that activates this passion of the heart then has to be reversed -- through sublimation and more mind emptiness to clean the heart so that the negative generative force can be converted to positive generative force as yin chi energy.

 

So finally when the lower tan tien is built up as positive generative force or yin chi energy - if anyone makes it this far - then the middle tan tien kicks in at the Yellow Centre -- the Solar Plexus - to create the "light of vitality" that is seen outside the head - in front of the eyes - to invigorate the brain and open up the third eye for the spiritual energy.

 

So then the yang chi is kicking in and so also the light of vitality is building up and so at this stage you should be able to sit in full lotus with no moving -- in ease - the body filled with chi energy - in bliss - for 2 hours nonstop.

 

So then at first it is not very strong and then takes more middle tan tien focus through more MCO practice to then fully open the third eye and if this is achieved then that is the "laying of the foundation" -- and at this level then you also start doing the "immortal breathing" or foetus breathing.

 

At that stage of immortal breathing then the physical breathing goes to next to nothing and instead the top of the head pulsates with electromagnetic energy as your "light of vitality" is leaving your head -- yin spirit energy - and also the centers of your hands and feet pulsate with electromagnetic energy. That stage enables you to go without food and water and to lessen the sleep.

 

The problem at this stage is that it can easily cause dizziness (a spacetime vortex of the room spinning around you) when the yin spirit begans leaving the body if the yin spirit is not surrounded by enough chi energy. So the immortal breathing means that yin spirit goes down while yang chi energy goes up and then vice versa - and this goes through the feet channels - and that is the macrocosmic orbit.

Edited June 7, 2013 by pythagoreanfulllotus

[effilang]

Here are other perspectives from Wang Mu,

 

"Despite the different names, the practice (The MCO during laying the foundation) consists only in enabling breath and heat to circulate, in order to open a path for the upcoming refining of the Medicine."

 

"When I was sitting in quiescence, I suddenly experienced a vibration. A warm energy (qi) rose from the Caudal Funnel to the top of my head, circulated through my body along the Function and Control vessels, passed again through the top of my head, and then slowly descended through my chest, until it reached the area below the navel. After some time, this energy began to rise and descend spontaneously. By means of my Intention (yi), I could move it throughout the body, so that it permeated my four limbs."

 

"This practice corresponds to clearing the Breath and clearing the vessels. Physicians maintain that clearing the Function and Control vessels is the Lesser Celestial Circuit (xiao zhoutian), and that clearing the Eight Vessels is the Greater Celestial Circuit (da zhoutian). From the point of view of the alchemical practice, instead, both of these methods pertain to the initial stage. Therefore the terminology used in the alchemical texts and in present-day Qigong is not the same. For the alchemical texts, in particular, “clearing the Breath” means clearing the Function and Control vessels; “circulating the Medicine” refers to the cycle of the River Chariot (heche, i.e., the Lesser Celestial Circuit); and “nourishing the Medicine” refers to the Greater Celestial Circuit."

 

"The goal of the stage of “laying the foundations” is replenishing the shortages in the vital functions of the body. Clearing the Function and Control vessels and clearing the three Barriers consists only in permeating these vessels with “postcelestial breath” (houtian qi), which circulates following a cyclical route and makes them clear. It should be noted that at this time the Medicine has not yet been formed: this practice is only done in preparation for the stage of “refining Essence and transmuting it into Breath.” Nevertheless, from a medical point of view, the circulation of breath and blood through unobstructed conduits is of great benefit for “nourishing life” (yangsheng) and for the treatment of illnesses."

 

"These sentences state that Spirit is stored within the Heart. As it moves, it becomes Spirit. Its movement in “non-doing” is called Original Spirit (yuanshen), its movement in “doing” is called “cognitive spirit” (shishen).

 

Therefore Zhang Boduan also says:

When one’s Heart is quiescent, one’s Spirit is whole. When one’s

Spirit is whole, one’s Nature manifests itself.52"

 

"Although the concepts behind their names are similar, Heart and Spirit differ in rank and priority. According to Zhang Boduan, the Heart is “silent and unmoving,” and the Spirit moves in response to impulses. What Taoism calls “refining Nature” (lianxing) is the cultivation of the Heart; what it calls “refining Life” (lianming) is the joint cultivation of Essence, Breath, and Spirit."

 

"This passage refers to ending the flow of thoughts. Therefore collecting the mind is the first requirement to enter the state of quiescence and to control the inner Heart, keeping it silent and unmoving. Although impure thoughts may arise, they are at once restrained. This is the first practice."

 

"The Intention is generated in the Heart, and the Heart is generated in the eyes. Therefore Laozi said: “I always contemplate the Heart, and attain the Dao in the blink of an eye.” After the true breathing has been stabilized, the inner radiance is the radiance of the Spirit, and this Heart is the True Heart. The True Heart generates the Intention, and the radiance of the Spirit illuminates the Heart. Therefore it is often said: “The eyes watch the Heart, the Heart generates the Intention, the Intention collects the Lead.”

 

"In the Taoist alchemical practices of Nourishing Life, the stage of “refining

Essence to transmute it into Breath” has a crucial importance, as it

represents the first level after “laying the foundations.”

"At this stage, Essence, Breath, and Spirit—the Three Treasures—are

said to be the ingredients. The practice of “laying the foundations” is

intended to replenish their supply. This initial, preparatory practice is

called the stage of the “arts of the Way” (daoshu). Only after the Three

Treasures have been replenished can one enter the stages of refining the

Internal Elixir. These stages are called “arts of Immortality” (xianshu).

"“Refining Essence to transmute it into Breath” is also called the

Barrier of the Hundred Days (bairi guan)."

[effilang]

And BTW Drew. I said I'd read Taoist Yoga at least 3 times a week, and not 3 times in total. Very funny.

[effilang]

The Medicine (Yao)

What the alchemical texts call the Medicine (alchemical agent in TY) is made of the Essence, the

Breath, and the Spirit that have been replenished at the stage of “laying the foundations.”

"According to the different stages of the alchemical practice, the

Medicine is divided into three types: the External Medicine (waiyao) (External alchemical agent in TY), the

Internal Medicine (neiyao)(Internal alchemical agent in TY), and the Great Medicine (dayao).

This distinction is based on the process of coagulating

Essence, Breath, and Spirit with one another.

The cyclical refining at the stage of “refining Essence to

transmute it into Breath” leads to the formation of the External

Medicine.

The cyclical refining that follows the completion of the first

stage of the practice results in the formation of the Internal Medicine.

After the External and the Internal Medicines coagulate with one

another, one enters the stage of “refining Breath to transmute it into

Spirit,” which is called the Great Medicine.

After the Great Medicine goes through the barrier of

“entering the enclosure” (ruhuan, also known as

the “barrier of sitting,” zuoguan), it is called the Embryo of the Dao

(daotai), or the Infant (ying’er)."

"The “arts of the Way and the “arts of Immortality” differ according

to whether, during the circulation along the Celestial Circuit of the

Function and Control vessels, the Medicine has not yet been formed or

has already been formed.

“Laying the foundations” is the stage in which

there is no Medicine, and it only consists in refining Breath

(Im assuming he means the respiratory mechanism here rather than Qi, as that happens in the next stage).

“Refining Essence to transmute it into Breath,” instead, is the state in which the

formation of the Medicine occurs."

External Medicine, Internal Medicine, and Great Medicine. The process of

attaining the Medicine involves two “births” and two “collections.” The

two births are those of the External Medicine and the Internal Medicine.

The two collections are those of the External Medicine and the Internal

Medicine. The difference between them lies in the fact that for the

External Medicine there is a “birth” followed by a “collection,” while for

the Internal Medicine there is a “collection” followed by a “birth.”

This point requires a detailed explanation. When the External

Medicine is born—i.e., from the “living Zi hour” (huo zishi) onward—

Essence, Breath, and Spirit begin to move.3 The source is clear, and the

Original Essence is full. At that time, by means of the Fire Times of the

Lesser Celestial Circuit, the Medicine rises to the Muddy Pellet, descends

through the trachea, passes through the Yellow Court, enters the lower

Cinnabar Field, and is stored there. This counts as one cycle of refining

the Medicine. Since it comes from outside and enters within, it is called

External Medicine. According to the rule, the External Medicine must be

submitted to three hundred full cycles in order to be in accord with the

“mysterious and wondrous mechanism” (xuanmiao ji). Only then is it

possible to begin the alchemical practice to generate the Internal

Medicine.

After the preliminary coagulation of the External Medicine has been

completed, it rapidly gives birth to the Internal Medicine. One first

circulates the Original Spirit, and joins it in the lower Cinnabar Field with

the Original Breath already accumulated there by means of the three

hundred cycles of refining. This generates the Internal Medicine, which is

finer and purer than the External Medicine. However, as we have said, for

the Internal Medicine there is a “collection” followed by a “birth.” Unlike

the External Medicine, the Internal Medicine is not formed by a process

of coagulation: this is an immediate method (dunfa) belonging to the “arts

of Immortality.” After the Internal Medicine is born in the lower Cinnabar

Field, it is joined to the External Medicine already produced, and they

gradually coalesce with one another.

This is why it is said that there is a “collection” followed by a “birth.” The Internal Medicine, therefore, does

not use the circulation along the Celestial Circuit; after it is born it meets

the External Medicine and they coalesce into the “mother of the Elixir” (danmu).

The External Medicine fulfills Life (liaoming); the Internal Medicine

fulfills Nature (liaoxing). The External Medicine “steals creation and

transformation” outside, in order to return to the precelestial; the

Internal Medicine protects the fundamental reality within, in order

to transform the postcelestial.

The External Medicine pertains to “doing” (youzuo) and is refined by

means of the Lesser Celestial Circuit. The Internal Medicine, instead,

pertains to “non-doing” (wuwei): after one extinguishes the Fire, Spirit

enters the Cinnabar Field, joins the External Medicine stored there, and

the Internal Medicine is achieved. The entrance of Spirit in the Cinnabar

Field is the so-called “collecting” (cai), and is also referred to as “coagulating

Spirit and letting it enter the Cavity of Breath (qixue).” As we have

said, one does not use the Celestial Circuit.

The Great Medicine, instead, is refined by means of the Greater

Celestial Circuit, i.e., by means of the Original Spirit, which is silent and

luminous; but here, in fact, there is no actual “circulation.”

After the Internal and the External Medicines coagulate with one

another, there is the sign of the “three appearances of the Yang

radiance” (yangguang sanxian). Then one can extinguish the Fire and

prepare oneself for the seven days of “entering the enclosure” (ruhuan).6

The “mother of the Elixir,” obtained by the coagulation of the Internal

and the External Medicines, is refined in order to form the Great

Medicine, and one enters the next stage, “refining Breath to transmute it

into Spirit.”

Edited June 7, 2013 by effilang

[effilang]

“Refining Essence to transmute it into Breath” is the “initial barrier.”

Essence is refined with Breath, and forms a Breath that becomes the

“mother of the Elixir” (danmu). At this stage, “the Three return to the

Two.” In the next stage, “refining Breath to transmute it into Spirit,”

Breath is refined with Spirit, so that it returns to Spirit. At this stage,

which is also called the “intermediate barrier,” “the Two return to the

One.” After the “intermediate barrier,” there will be only the One Spirit

(yishen), and one will be able to progress to the “higher barrier.”

The “intermediate barrier” is also called Barrier of the Ten Months

(shiyue guan). The terms used to describe this stage include Great

Medicine (dayao), Embryo of Sainthood (shengtai), “bathing at the four

cardinal points” (sizheng muyu), “moving the tripod” (yiding), “going back

and forth between the two Fields” (ertian fanfu), and Greater Celestial

Circuit (da zhoutian). The Barrier of the Ten Months uses the metaphors of

the ten-month pregnancy and the nurturing of the Numinous Medicine

(lingyao). When the practice reaches this stage, it has already entered into

its idealistic portion: it is deemed that if this stage of the practice is

successful, one can invert the process of aging and return to youth,

extend the length of one’s life and obtain longevity.

The Great Medicine (Dayao)

According to the principles of alchemy, between the stages of “refining

Essence to transmute it into Breath” and “refining Breath to transmute it

into Spirit” there is an intermediate stage. At that time, the Internal

Medicine and the External Medicine coagulate with one another. First, by

means of the external cycling of the Celestial Circuit, one accumulates the

External Medicine; then, through the operation of Spirit, the External

Medicine is moved to the lower Cinnabar Field and rapidly generates the

Internal Medicine. When the Internal and the External Medicines coagulate

and coalesce together in the lower Cinnabar Field, they form the Great

Medicine (dayao). This is the so-called “mother of the Elixir” (danmu). After a

further refining of seven days, which is called “entering the

enclosure” (ruhuan), it forms the Embryo of Sainthood (shengtai), also called

the Infant (ying’er). “Entering the enclosure” is also called “barrier of

sitting” (zuoguan); in Buddhism, it is called “confinement” (biguan).

The Greater Celestial Circuit (Da Zhoutian)

Seven days after the Great Medicine has been obtained, the barriers are

cleared and one enters the stage of “refining Breath to transmute it into

Spirit.” I will describe below the difference between the Greater and the

Lesser Celestial Circuits.

In the Lesser Celestial

In the Lesser Celestial Circuit, the External Medicine is collected and

is moved to the lower Cinnabar Field by means of the River Chariot: it

passes through the tripod above (the Palace of the Muddy Pellet), reaches

the stove below (the Cinnabar Field), and is sealed there in order to be

preserved. The sinciput is called Qian-Tripod (qianding), and the lower

Cinnabar Field is called Kun-Stove (kunlu).

In the Greater Celestial Circuit, instead, the tripod is moved below:

the Yellow Court is the tripod, and the lower Cinnabar Field is the stove.

The Original Breath, murky and misty, simply stays in the empty space

between the two Fields; it should be guarded in that space, instead of

being firmly held within one of the two Fields.

Edited June 7, 2013 by effilang

[joeblast]

I guess even if you do accomplish a lot of this stuff, ego work is still an entirely separate thing to have to work on.

 

 

Good idea. Too bad, I can't contribute much because I'm in the free style group.

I do appreciate you guys build the steps and landmarks, so I know where I am in the process.

well, as complex as all of the discussion gets, that is mainly just clarification of terms, building relational matrix between concept, word, experience. you seem to have enough interest that you'd find yourself more comfortable than you'd think in reading it.

So, during the process of Taoist Yoga, should we use normal abdominal breathing, or reverse abdominal breathing?

And, during the mco, should the outer alchemical agent go through the center of the spine (inside)?

When it reaches the top of the spine, does it go THROUGH the tsu ch'iao, or above it? If it goes above it, how much higher in the brain is it supposed to be?

reverse is more potent when done correctly. so in very deep reverse breathing where the breath externally disappears, its almost as if diaphragm and perineum are being 'reeled in' by the dantien when you inhale. that is the essence of the fundamental group of mechanisms diaphragm-psoas-perineum. people focus too much on the 'martial modifier' of the front of the abdomen and think too much of compressing the dantien and such. get that fundamental 3 structures highly coherent, drop the flow of air beneath the threshold of turbulence (of course this will not happen without a pretty still heartmind ) and use the upper dt to find the sunlight in the chamber of water and that sunlight, that abstraction, that potential, is the real thing that words dont do justice to.

 

 

same with the mco, there is leading and intent, not a focus on where you think the qi will exactly manifest. like the first quote in my sig - focus on the process and then the outcome manifests - its a quantum mechanical world, so in trying to manifest something we are really just arranging coherent waveform potentials such that the probability of certain events rises - this is called simply setting the conditions for something. we cant guarantee much of anything to manifest, all we can really do is arrange the waveform potentials that we have some measure of control over so that what we want has a good chance of manifestation.

 

it is no different with feeling out the dantian, feeling out the MCO path, feeling the dantien vibrate, etc, etc.

 

and since effi liked this old post of mine:

 

 

 

I agree that Qi is a quantum mechanical phenomenon Here's something I wrote a couple years ago - a correlation from a simple electron deflector experiment. I've found that the practice correlation holds

So in order to manifest something, the conditions need to be arranged - i.e. figure out how to "most efficiently combine amplitudes." If we accept the postulate that qi is a quantum mechanical phenomenon, then we have some interesting rules that apply that seem to be well confirmed by mindful practice (using two as a # of interactions to keep it simple, values for a & b are entirely arbitrary just to prove a simple point):

if we have two amplitudes a=3 and b=4,

-if the events happen in sequence, multiply the amplitudes: 3x4=12
-if the events are in coherence but can be distinguished, square the multiples then add: 9+16=25
-if the events cannot be distinguished, add before absolute squaring - 3+4=7, ^2=49

When practicing, events not in coherence will have the lesser outcome;

In refining, one finds coherence yet events are at least partly still of the mind and thus distinguishable;

Practice until the foreground fades away, background becomes the foreground - and certain events within will start to become indistinguishable, producing the most efficacious result.


Another thing that QM tells us is that (in the famous double slit experiment) it doesnt matter which slit the photon goes through - the path is a priori deduced from the sum of all paths; in a particle or field interaction, just like the center of a black hole, we really cant see or exactly measure the interaction itself because that would be interfering with the experiment, but it is indeed a manifestation when particles or fields interact.

Which begs the question,
What if you are the experiment?

 

Here are other perspectives from Wang Mu,

 

good reminder, I need to read that a couple more times!

Edited June 7, 2013 by joeblast

[johndoe2012]

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Edited August 18, 2013 by chris d

[hydrogen]

same with the mco, there is leading and intent, not a focus on where you think the qi will exactly manifest. like the first quote in my sig - focus on the process and then the outcome manifests - its a quantum mechanical world, so in trying to manifest something we are really just arranging coherent waveform potentials such that the probability of certain events rises - this is called simply setting the conditions for something. we cant guarantee much of anything to manifest, all we can really do is arrange the waveform potentials that we have some measure of control over so that what we want has a good chance of manifestation.

 

it is no different with feeling out the dantian, feeling out the MCO path, feeling the dantien vibrate, etc, etc.

 

It echoes my experiences.

 

Keep doing the fake, the real will follow.

 

Though we don't know for sure when the real will show up, we must have faith it'll show up soon or later. The conviction actually builds the MCO as well.

[joeblast]

I disagree with fake though - because what is taking place is a streamlining of signal to noise ratio - so we are separating the wheat from the chaff, attenuating that which is considered noise, constructively amplifying the signals we wish to increase - while in one sense that may be some level of fakin' the funk, it is made vastly more efficient by good focus on the correct signals and good attenuation of noise elements.

 

just like applying a high pass filter to a recording, all that rumble the maneuver cuts out takes up a lot of energy-potential-space, and when it is eliminated then all of a sudden boom, there is a ton more available headroom and other aspects become more clear as a result. in recording one creates his own audio landscape from nothing - in meditation one does the same thing but usually from the opposite starting point of a messy room.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Dr Yuen talks a bit about this in one his mp3s. Generally he says not to have a mystical view of the spirit.

 

I like some of his views but not all of them.

 

What I was talking about is a tangible reality that I could have anyone experience within 5 minutes. Because everyone is doing it all the time already, they just do it unconsciously.

 

The "mystical" (certainly the mystical only) view of shen is largely a Western projection onto the Chinese language, same with many terms. There is a weird thing where something in Chinese is quite matter of fact and not all woo-woo, and yet when translated into English it just sounds all New Agey.

 

Shen as a term contains various meaning and nuances. But even the spiritual aspects inherent within it are not particularly esoteric or mystical for the most part. Ya Mu has talked to me about parts of all of this, and I'm still digesting it all. As far as I understand it, the same projections have largely happened with the Native American view of "medicine" and "spirit" too. Another classical teacher I know says "please don't get too mad when you finally realise this is all a lot more mundane and boring than you currently think".

 

Spend time with these people and see just how grounded into life and reality they are, even when they see the divine in things. Then spend time around Western seekers who live in TV, film, books and the interwebs, and see how everything takes on an ethereal disconnected senseability. Weird how that works huh

 

It is not that a spiritual or wonderous aspect is not a part of it, but the reality is often much more grounded than many "seekers" want and so they see or find what they want to.

 

How far apart are the sacred and the mundane? Do we not aim to fully enjoy each moment wihin the moment and all that it brings?

 

So could I have worded what I said differently? Of course, but what I was talking about is called 'shen' in Chinese, and we are talking about Chinese arts, so....

 

Best,

Edited June 7, 2013 by snowmonki