On Tai Chi & Qigong; Are They the Same?

[Antares]

Recently I stumbled upon an article with this title in Ya Mu's blog. The article says that

 

 

I have found Tai Chi to be a great physical exercise that also produces many mental as well as physical benefits, also, in the classical TCM sense, helps restore energy circulation through the channels. I have no problem with this and do suggest Tai Chi as a great exercise. But when it comes to transmutation and raising the vibration of the energy body - not so much.

 

and

 

 

One of the differences of opinion about Tai Chi is due to the fact of the difference in the way people are taught. I was shown each move's martial application which adequately demonstrated Tai Chi is a vicious and brutal martial art. Can a person slow it down and utilize it as a "qigong"? I say yes but with certain caveats. One is that a qigong form (preferable an internal form) should be practiced concurrently with a person utilizing the qigong energetics inside the tai chi. The other is that there are certain carryover energetics from the fact that each of these moves were designed to maim someone (stop the heart, break the jaw, displace the shoulder etc). An attached "karma" or perhaps just to say "attached energetics" would be one way to look at it. I can demonstrate this with a field of horses. If I do Gift of Tao neigong movements the horses are attracted and come very close and get in a really relaxed droopy jawed, almost closed eye state. The very second I switch over to either tai chi or hsing I (with no change in body tension or sudden move) the horses jump to attention and the leader walks out to challenge, although he does have a confused stance as if to say "But you are my friend, why are you challenging me?" It is quite obvious to me that they are picking up on the energetics difference. And, I have performed this experiment many times and with different horses.

 

and

 

 

My own personal conclusion is to practice neigong alongside the tai chi and integrate these energetics inside the movements. Although from my experiments with animals (PETA, no animals were harmed during this testing) I also conclude there is no way to separate the martial energetic attachment. Dilute it, yes; separate it, no.

 

So doing the taichi form (or any other IMA form ) one creates karma?

What does it mean to "practice neigong alongside the tai chi and integrate these energetics inside the movements"?

 

As far as I know there is neigong in any internal MA and an IMA form is neigong for itself. How does it create karma? I think that only certain intention creates karma if you want to harm somebody but IMA forms can be done as a form of qigong (neigong).

[ChiDragon]

Yes, Tai Ji is a form of Qigong but is more extensive and serious practice method. Tai Ji is more organized and uniform. It involves the body movements first, then the breathing. As one practice along, the breathing will be following the movements spontaneously. Thus every breath will become in sync with every move which give the swiftness and accuracy of the body movement. Finally, the best of all, it gives the body strength which is called Jin.

The reason Tai Ji is a form of Qigong is because both methods do involve with breathing and body movements in slowly motion.

[Antares]

As far as I realized the main idea of the article is that energetic of qigong is more subtle than from IMA. And I asked myself why I wanted to learn taichi or any other MA forms? Any qigong is lifetime commitment and imho it is better to commit in something one and make it perfect. Why do many people want to find an IMA master and learn from them? Is not it coming from supposition that somebody going to attack them?

[Wells]

Yes, Tai Ji is a form of Qigong but is more extensive and serious practice method. Tai Ji is more organized and uniform. It involves the body movements first, then the breathing. As one practice along, the breathing will be following the movements spontaneously. Thus every breath will become in sync with every move which give the swiftness and accuracy of the body movement. Finally, the best of all, it gives the body strength which is called Jin.

 

The reason Tai Ji is a form of Qigong is because both methods do involve with breathing and body movements in slowly motion.

 

Aren't you the guy who believes that Chi is some kind of abstract mental concept which is in fact only body mechanics in Taichi?

[寒月 Hanyue]

It is quite simple,

• Taijiquan is a martial art
• Qigong means qi work
• Neigong means inner/internal work

Qigong as a generic term can be used to describe anything and everything which falls into the various interpretations of what the term means. Meaning, it means everything and nothing! It is so vague.

 

Neigong, there is martial neigong and there is Daoist neigong, and they are NOT the same thing. However there have been various martial practitioners who also stuided Daoist neigong and infused that into their practice too.

 

Taijiquan is a martial art, which was influenced by a way of using the body which today is most commonly associated with some forms of qigong. This is martial neigong, which is at the heart of taijiquan.

 

There are a few lines of genuine taijiquan that have also incorporated Daoist practice and meditation within the forms. The most common line is of jinshanpai, and its influence upon Zheng Manqing, and it is largely Zheng's followers who go on about the Daoist connection of taijiquan in the West. However, most have not learned the Daoist aspect at all.

 

The Chen style did not have Daoist neigong within it, although Hu Yaozhen and Chen Fake both trained Feng Zhiqiang to infuse the Daoist neigong into Chenshi Taijiquan, leading to Chenshi xinyi hunyuan taijiquan. I do not know if other lines of Chen taijiquan went there from other routes or not.

 

Wu style, I know Liu Hongjie infused his Daoist practice into the Wushi taijiquan and allegedly passed that on as a form that could be used as shengong and Daoist meditation.

 

The above are examples of people doing what Ya Mu means by;

 

"practice neigong alongside the tai chi and integrate these energetics inside the movements"

 

Ya Mu refers to low-high level, as far as I know within Daoism an equivilent would be pre-post heaven. Martial neigong is about bodymind and is about post-heaven practice, because it is about you in the world and surviving combat. Daoist neigong is usually pre-heaven practice, and is more about "spiritual" things. But please do not get stuck on my words.

 

If you cripple someone or kill them, would this create karma? or as Ya Mu says, "attached energetics", there is of course your own reaction to such events, then there is all the associated reactions, from the person, their friends, family and so on.

 

Many people try to remove the idea of inherent violent intent from martial art practice thesedays, however martial art is martial art and we should not forget what it is and what it is for, even if we seek something higher or fold something else into the mix. A high level Bagua teacher told me this, just the other day.

 

Best,

Edited June 6, 2013 by snowmonki

[Antares]

Many people try to remove the idea of inherent violent intent from martial art practice thesedays, however martial art is martial art and we should not forget what it is and what it is for, even if we seek something higher or fold something else into the mix. A high level Bagua teacher told me this, just the other day.

 

There is the point. It is still martial art.

I personally had been doing "internal" Aikido for few years within the "lineage". And realized it was useless and waste of time and money. In the beginning teacher was saying that was high level martial art. But after few years he said that it is not the MA and we should not think that somebody going to attack us as it crude thoughts . And I did not understand what I was doing. Another day he said it is the art and one should visualize something in real life. And I could not realize what I should visualize. How somebody attacking me? And the real application of that MA was useless. It was not MA and it was not qigong, it was much closer to calisthenics under the mask of IMA. I am not sure about Chinese IMA. May be it is quite applicable if you are lucky to find good teacher but something says to me it is rare chance to find one.

 

I understand what u saying that IMA is neigong. But there are many other not MA neigongs and qigongs. And in the most cases so called IMA are nearly good calisthenics with some forms of qigongs. And it might be waste of time trying to mix qigong with MA forms. Better to cultivate something one

 

edited for grammar

Edited June 6, 2013 by Eugene

[LeirTheFox]

There is the point. It is still martial art.

I personally had been doing "internal" Aikido for few years within the "lineage". And realized it was useless and waste of time and money. In the beginning teacher was saying that was high level martial art. But after few years he said that it is not the MA and we should not think that somebody going to attack us as it crude thoughts . And I did not understand what I was doing. Another day he said it is the art and one should visualize something in real life. And I could not realize what I should visualize. How somebody attacking me? And the real application of that MA was useless. It was not MA and it was not qigong, it was much closer to calisthenics under the mask of IMA. I am not sure about Chinese IMA. May be it is quite applicable if you are lucky to find good teacher but something says to me it is rare chance to find one.

 

Eugene, just some thoughts on Aikido: I've been practicing it for one year, and since I started studying it, my masters explain that the Aikido founder developed it after Daitoryu Aikijitsu as an adaptation to the practice of Ahimsa, the non-violence, but still recognizes self-defense when necessary. And to not harm when you have the means is a practice of character and compassion.

 

As I've been taught, Aikido is a practice of harmonizing conflict (both verbal and physical). Sure, one may avoid MAs for their core (for avoiding karma, for instance). But once I met a zen-buddhist monk that was, at the same time, a police officer and 5th dan grad on Aikido. I asked him about this, and as he mentioned it, not protecting people when its duty (or when you have the means) is a way to generate karma itself, besides the fact that when harmonizing, you are creating a condition where you do not allow someone to generate karma either. This is where "harmony" comes from.

 

There are many variations of this practice, and although it has works with energy and spirit, they are rather subtle, as they are applied in the movements. Still, as you mentioned, I don't see (in applications, at least for now) the IMA having the same developing as non-MA neigongs and qigongs.

[Antares]

Eugene, just some thoughts on Aikido: I've been practicing it for one year, and since I started studying it, my masters explain that the Aikido founder developed it after Daitoryu Aikijitsu as an adaptation to the practice of Ahimsa, the non-violence, but still recognizes self-defense when necessary. And to not harm when you have the means is a practice of character and compassion.

 

I was thinking like you after 1 year of practicing Aikido. Once I met a guy who was black belt and he said that he left Aikido for Yoga. The reason as he explained was that it was not really applicable. And I had been doing A. for 1 year and as we were told it was only beginning. And I thought that that guy missed the point with A. And I came to the same conclusion after three years. USELESS. Close to new agey stuff on the market - love, non violence... The point then why to train it? All attacks there in the way no one really would attack you, no one grab like they train in Aikido. Yeah. It might happen that somebody stupid would grab your wrist and wait while you doing something to him... Better to spend this time for qigong, neigong...

I did 3-5 classes a week. And then I changed teacher to see what is there else could be. I came to another more advanced sensei as he claimed and it was slightly better but still far from real application against REAL attack. I completely discouraged in it after a man who did that fo 12 years said he has no clue how to fend off face punch!!! And he said he is doing it for qi development. May be somebody likes such kind of training but it is not for me. Better to do qigong. I think it is more important to free the mind from violence. But why then to practice MA?

 

Also my sensei teached Taichi forms and qigong. No one benefited from it for years.

 

Uesiba was adept in Japanese Tantra first of all and MA was kinda training for him. But now people think that that Aikido was his main path. He invented Aikido only at the end of his path, but it was HIS unique path.

As for M. Uesiba he trained in Aiki Jutsu and I think it how he got his skills. Only HAVING REAL experience in CONTACT MA one can understand and use Aikido. If one has no any clue about contact MA then it is only philosophy and business. You can be no violent doing qigong or yoga or just gardening, or playing golf. But if you have 20-30 years for Aikido may be it is your way, I can't judge here. The question how far you can go with it. I would better study bagua. Aikido is too much new agey

Edited June 6, 2013 by Eugene

[adept]

I was thinking like you after 1 year of practicing Aikido. Once I met a guy who was black belt and he said that he left Aikido for Yoga. The reason as he explained was that it was not really applicable. And I had been doing A. for 1 year and as we were told it was only beginning. And I thought that that guy missed the point with A. And I came to the same conclusion after three years. USELESS. Close to new agey stuff on the market - love, non violence... The point then why to train it? All attacks there in the way no one really would attack you, no one grab like they train in Aikido. Yeah. It might happen that somebody stupid would grab your wrist and wait while you doing something to him... Better to spend this time for qigong, neigong...

I did 3-5 classes a week. And then I changed teacher to see what is there else could be. I came to another more advanced sensei as he claimed and it was slightly better but still far from real application against REAL attack. I completely discouraged in it after a man who did that fo 12 years said he has no clue how to fend off face punch!!! And he said he is doing it for qi development. May be somebody likes such kind of training but it is not for me. Better to do qigong. I think it is more important to free the mind from violence. But why then to practice MA?

 

Also my sensei teached Taichi forms and qigong. No one benefited from it for years.

 

Uesiba was adept in Japanese Tantra first of all and MA was kinda training for him. But now people think that that Aikido was his main path. He invented Aikido only at the end of his path, but it was HIS unique path.

As for M. Uesiba he trained in Aiki Jutsu and I think it how he got his skills. Only HAVING REAL experience in CONTACT MA one can understand and use Aikido. If one has no any clue about contact MA then it is only philosophy and business. You can be no violent doing qigong or yoga or just gardening, or playing golf. But if you have 20-30 years for Aikido may be it is your way, I can't judge here. The question how far you can go with it. I would better study bagua. Aikido is too much new agey

Seems like your Aikido teachers were just poor examples. Properly taught Aikido is far from new agey.

[Antares]

Seems like your Aikido teachers were just poor examples. Properly taught Aikido is far from new agey.

 

No, they both are direct students of direct Uesiba's students who stayed with him until he passed away. The reason why I call it new agey because there is no neikong as such. No meditation, no breath practice. My main teacher used such terms as "stay in the moment" (i guess he read E. Tolle much), "extend your chi" (how one extend it if one does not have a clue what is chi)...

This is not internal MA. Not worthwhile to compare with authentic wushu. And was invented recently. I do not think any other teacher teaches any better. But I admit that there might be few high level aikido teachers. Do you have good examples?

And as this thread is not of aikido and is about taichi I would say that in the most cases they teach diluted taichi akin to calisthenics what people do in parks.

[idquest]

AFAIK Wang Liping doesn't teach taiji, only qigong/neigong. So it all comes down to what your goals are, what you are trying to accomplish.

Some teachers teach taiji as a form of qigong, like BKF for instance. But if you want to train things like open/close, pulsing, spiraling - this is best to study as short qigong movements.

Also, qigong usually implies heavy breathing gong. This is why in my previous school the teacher said that taiji is like a half of qigong (he was asked exactly the same question). He meant that qigong would incorporate a serious breathing component and work with glands, which is much more difficult to accomplish by doing taiji.

[Antares]

Why are you talking of Wan Liping? As far as I know he is fraud. Good example of how people believe to new agey teachers and give them their money! Few years ago I wanted to attend his seminar. They sent me email with the request to pay 3000 $$$ for 3 days seminar. I sent my request to the branch of authentic taoist sect and I was replied they nobody knows who is Wan Liping in China, no any monk, no any other taoist. Many people just trust to promotion and engage in what they do not understand

 

As for taichi I personally believe it is diluted in the most cases. But BKF is good example of authentic wushu lineage. Also I would say Stuart Olson seems to be good teacher in authentic lineage. They teach both form and qigong. But there are so many other forms of qigong that I think I stick with another no martial qogong/neigong system. Because another non martial system might be more advanced of cultivation IMHO

[Meroe]

Taiji can be considered under the QiGong umbrella, traditionally catered to Martial cultivation, in my personal opinion. In a general sense most taiji as practiced isnt considered neigong in the way that I personally have been taught. im sure theres those who would disagree with me but how ive learned is the following: Qigong while being a vague term as stated previously, is about cultivating, accumulating, & circulation etc... whereas Neigong is all of this, on top of whats considered alchemical changes according to I Ching Calculations, Eight Trigram (Bagua) manipulations, as well as new forces being created in the body, pairing of yin & yang, changes to the WuXing, among other things... There are however, a few Taiji forms that definitely do all of this... the only ones i know of are reserved for members of Daoist Sects though...

 

Why are you talking of Wan Liping? As far as I know he is fraud. Good example of how people believe to new agey teachers and give them their money! Few years ago I wanted to attend his seminar. They sent me email with the request to pay 3000 $$$ for 3 days seminar. I sent my request to the branch of authentic taoist sect and I was replied they nobody knows who is Wan Liping in China, no any monk, no any other taoist. Many people just trust to promotion and engage in what they do not understand

 

As for taichi I personally believe it is diluted in the most cases. But BKF is good example of authentic wushu lineage. Also I would say Stuart Olson seems to be good teacher in authentic lineage. They teach both form and qigong. But there are so many other forms of qigong that I think I stick with another no martial qogong/neigong system. Because another non martial system might be more advanced of cultivation IMHO

 

 

Eugene, Do you mind elaborating on who you contacted? did you contact the Quanzhen? or Longmen Pai? What monastery, such as White Cloud Temple, Purple Cloud temple etc... because its not a big surprise that would happen considering that its the largest taoist sect in china... & seeing as though theres well over a billion people in their country lol... theres a number of transmitters in their school, i dont really see why they would all be acquainted if the school is as large as is said. I personally know a transmitter of the Dragon Gate sect out of the White Cloud monastery that definitely knows Liping... so i dont know what to think about that.

[Wells]

Why are you talking of Wan Liping? As far as I know he is fraud. Good example of how people believe to new agey teachers and give them their money! Few years ago I wanted to attend his seminar. They sent me email with the request to pay 3000 $$$ for 3 days seminar. I sent my request to the branch of authentic taoist sect and I was replied they nobody knows who is Wan Liping in China, no any monk, no any other taoist. Many people just trust to promotion and engage in what they do not understand

 

According to Jim McMillan, Wang Liping is level 35 and therefore an authentic and very powerful taoist immortal!

Jim posted this info personally on ttb.

 

As for taichi I personally believe it is diluted in the most cases. But BKF is good example of authentic wushu lineage. Also I would say Stuart Olson seems to be good teacher in authentic lineage. They teach both form and qigong. But there are so many other forms of qigong that I think I stick with another no martial qogong/neigong system. Because another non martial system might be more advanced of cultivation IMHO

 

BKF has only body mechanics and no chi power whatsoever imo.

[Antares]

According to Jim McMillan, Wang Liping is level 35 and therefore an authentic and very powerful taoist immortal!

Jim posted this info personally on ttb.

 

 

BKF has only body mechanics and no chi power whatsoever imo.

 

Who is Jim? What kind of levels you are talking about? Wan Liping claims to be patriarch of Longmenpai sect.

The person from Wu Lui Pai sect was asked few times about Wan Liping on their forum and he asked few patriarchs in China (of Huanshan,Wudangshan sects and others ) and no one knows there who is Wan Liping. I would give a link on that thread but it is not in English. More over that Wan Liping teaches only qigong in form of sitting meditation as far as I know. This is not authentic alchemical practice. If you believe that WP is cool then go for his seminar. I will not for sure. And this is my last post about WP

[Antares]

As for BKF I agree. It is only some mechanics as well as in taichi. That is what I am talking about.

I agree that this is just only forms of qigong. As it was mentioned above it is working with postanatal qi.

 

There are few methods of cultivation as far as I know. Neidan and neikong accumulate prenatal qi.

And martial qigong use it for fighting skills.

 

People read books on bagua (BKF) and taichi and they buy it as high forms of cultivation methods. Because nothing to compare with. Real masters do not disclose it openly.

 

I contacted one of the BKF's instructors in the past and I was badly impressed with his communication skills and he did not say how it works for him regardless I asked him few times. But anyway it is better than many other calisthenics like taichi and external MA akin to karate, aikido, and so on...

 

But there are some very advanced MA schools. What they call old school kung fu which have alchemical methods of cultivation. This thread is about taichi. I just was thinking to practice it and now I think I won't do it.

 

And I wanted to hear other opinions on Ya Mu's words that MA forms have "attached karma" to it. Hmm, many authentic Chinese masters practiced MA as part of the their path. I think that point is in balance. There should be not only MA forms but some internal methods as the core of a system. Another point is that taichi what we know now is kinds diluted method of cultivation. IMHO

[Wells]

Who is Jim?

 

John Chang's first westerner student.

 

What kind of levels you are talking about?

 

The power levels of Mo Pai of course.

 

Wan Liping claims to be patriarch of Longmenpai sect.

 

Wang Liping!

Or did you mean Obi-Wan...?

 

The person from Wu Lui Pai sect was asked few times about Wan Liping on their forum and he asked few patriarchs in China (of Huanshan,Wudangshan sects and others ) and no one knows there who is Wan Liping.

 

The Wu Liu Pai school is a legitimate alchemy school. But that doesn't mean that they know things about other legitimate schools.

 

I would give a link on that thread but it is not in English. More over that Wan Liping teaches only qigong in form of sitting meditation as far as I know.

 

You know wrong.

 

This is not authentic alchemical practice.

 

It is.

 

If you believe that WP is cool then go for his seminar.

 

He is on a higher level than John Chang, dude!

 

I will not for sure. And this is my last post about WP

 

LOL!

[Meroe]

Who is Jim? What kind of levels you are talking about? Wan Liping claims to be patriarch of Longmenpai sect.

The person from Wu Lui Pai sect was asked few times about Wan Liping on their forum and he asked few patriarchs in China (of Huanshan,Wudangshan sects and others ) and no one knows there who is Wan Liping. I would give a link on that thread but it is not in English. More over that Wan Liping teaches only qigong in form of sitting meditation as far as I know. This is not authentic alchemical practice. If you believe that WP is cool then go for his seminar. I will not for sure. And this is my last post about WP

 

Patriarch? he has never claimed to be such a thing. A transmitter for the dragon gate sect yes, but nothing more than that. so you expect a person thats not even of his lineage, to know who he is? no disrespect, but i dont really feel that you know what youre talking about. I personally have Wang Lipings Practice Manual & it has Taoist alchemical & Magical practices plus a number of alchemical treatises that speak of some of the highest level theory & practices ive ever seen put into writing publicly. I do believe his seminars to be overpriced, but that is another issue, but i have no doubts as to the mans authenticity.

[Antares]

Dorian, what is connection between Mo Pai and Longmenpai? Is not you lumping things together?

I do not know anything about Mo Pai and I do not care honestly about Mo Pai.

It might be such the fiction as Carlos Castaneda's yaqi's warriors. So many people believed in that stuff and in Tensegrity.

If you are one of those who believe that sitting meditation is alchemical method then I would suggest you to learn authentic texts.

If you like Wang Liping go ahead. 3000 $$$ flushing down...

If no one in Longmen knows Wang Liping what to talk about? You can believe what you want I don't care

[Antares]

Patriarch? he has never claimed to be such a thing. A transmitter for the dragon gate sect yes, but nothing more than that. so you expect a person thats not even of his lineage, to know who he is? no disrespect, but i dont really feel that you know what youre talking about. I personally have Wang Lipings Practice Manual & it has Taoist alchemical & Magical practices plus a number of alchemical treatises that speak of some of the highest level theory & practices ive ever seen put into writing publicly. I do believe his seminars to be overpriced, but that is another issue, but i have no doubts as to the mans authenticity.

 

Which monks or Chinese school transmitters you talked about WP?

People often want to believe what they want to believe. If somebody wrote nice book about WP it does not mean it must be TRUE. And I am done about WP.

[Wells]

Dorian, what is connection between Mo Pai and Longmenpai? Is not you lumping things together?

 

Jim had contact with Wang Liping and his school. I don't know how he was able to measure Wang Liping's achievement with Mo Pai levels. But because Jim is one of the few authentic sources at all, I guess we can believe him.

 

I do not know anything about Mo Pai and I do not care honestly about Mo Pai.

 

You dont know anything about Mo Pai...?

Then you are the only person in this forum who is not informed, lol!

Let me enlighten you about famous taoist immortal and former headmaster of Mo Pai, John Chang:

 

It might be such the fiction as Carlos Castaneda's yaqi's warriors. So many people believed in that stuff and in Tensegrity.

If you are one of those who believe that sitting meditation is alchemical method then I would suggest you to learn authentic texts.

 

You sound yourself like you are a member of Wu Liu Pai...

 

If you like Wang Liping go ahead. 3000 $$$ flushing down...

If no one in Longmen knows Wang Liping what to talk about? You can believe what you want I don't care

 

LOL! I have already his training manual...

[Antares]

Dorian, stick with WP manual and LOL!

Mo Pai authentic?

 

Can you bring Mo Pai authentic scriptures to the world?

 

I am registered on Wu Lui Pai forum for years and I know everything what it is discussed there for years.

They have authentic teacher and they do not believe that sitting is correct method of cultivation. As it was criticized by many Taoist masters such as Chang Po-tuan and immortal Lu Dongbin. Please read authentic sources if you are referring to classical Taoism.

That is why they call WP qigong self proclaimed master

[Wells]

Dorian, stick with WP manual and LOL!

Mo Pai authentic?

 

Can you bring Mo Pai authentic scriptures to the world?

 

I am registered on Wu Lui Pai forum for years and I know everything what it is discussed there for years.

They have authentic teacher and they do not believe that sitting is correct method of cultivation. As it was criticized by many Taoist masters such as Chang Po-tuan and immortal Lu Dongbin. Please read authentic sources if you are referring to classical Taoism.

That is why they call WP qigong self proclaimed master

 

Authentic systems that lead to immortality lead also to Neijin - Internal power.

Can the headmaster of Wu Liu Pai do what John Chang can do?

Edited June 7, 2013 by Dorian Black

[Antares]

You have to go to China, find them and shoot and see who is more cool. If they allow this. Lol

[Wells]

You have to go to China, find them and shoot and see who is more cool. If they allow this. Lol

 

Maybe it's better to not get on their nerves!

Edited June 7, 2013 by Dorian Black