I don't have to know who I am, I choose who I am

[Celestial]

It is like this: Needs are false because those who eat to live must realize in the end that they too are eaten...so, what happens next? Nothing. Hmmm..Exactly..so we don't need anything because there is nothing to need. I exist, therefore I am. I stop. I die. End of story? Or is it? What happens next is this. Molecules enter the soil, grass grows people eat animals, animals eat nature, and life begins again...who needs any of this? I do. Stop. I die. next life I begin again. Stop I die. Needs? Taken care of. That's it.

 

Stop breathing, and then come back to tell us about it.

[4bsolute]

I keep on choosing who I am, and I choose to be who I want to be. As much as I am capable of choosing. I choose more and more of all of that which I want to be, I choose to be that. I choose to think that, feel that and know that. Knowing and action follow suit. I choose to know who I am. My choice is allways one of joy and delight. I love who I am, because I am the choice of being the one who chooses to love who he is and all that he is. I choose to love who I am and all that I am and even all that I have yet to be. I know that I will allways be more and there will allways be more and new things to choose from. All these wonderful things I can choose to be. There's allways something that stands out on a peak. I choose that. I choose to be the peak of my joy. I dwell on it, I blend with it, I harmonize with it and I express it's expression through me, I become it, I fall into the love with it, and we become one. I am who I am. Who I am, is who I choose I am. I am allways flawlessly the most beautiful and precise expression of who I am. There's never a deviation from the expression of my self. If I choose to be who I want to be, I am who I want to be or more. Never less. There's no possibility of being who I am not, as who I am not does not exist by its very own definition. I have no choice but to be who I choose to be and I choose to be who I want to be as much as I can choose to be who I am. Eah and every moment, I become more of who I want to be and there's allways more things to choose from. I am allways becoming more of who I love to be and my love grows bigger for yet more things to choose from to be and to be in love with even as I am becoming one with it. I am yet allways in love with who I am and finding more love to choose from, to become more of the love that I already am. There is no end to this joy. No end to this life. Even if I love to die, there is more love in living as dying and the unique expression of my preferred self is allways beautiful and flawlessly chosen for me. Allways flawlessly an expansion of the love that I already am. What I can choose to be, I love, because they're all unique choices. I can allways choose more life or more death. Allways free tochoose what i want to choose. And I will never hesistate to choose to become that which I want to become. I am free to choose who I want to be. I am free to choose who I want to be. I am who I choose I am. I don't need to know who I am. I am who I choose to be. And I allways choose that which I enjoy to be. Simply because I love it. I love to be who I love to be.

 

How often does this lead you against a brickwall? If you say zero times, then you are in alignment

Edited June 12, 2013 by 4bsolute

[Songtsan]

Stop breathing, and then come back to tell us about it.

 

Who said that I need to be alive at all...if i die I come back again, so I cant die. Breath not needed then either.

[Celestial]

Who said that I need to be alive at all...if i die I come back again, so I cant die. Breath not needed then either.

 

You're right.

 

So what's the point of your posts? I'm trying to figure out what you're trying to accomplish here. If there is no point, then you're just taking up space and not contributing anything - especially since you refuse to see anyone else's point of view.

 

Good luck.

[Songtsan]

First of all, my original question was rhetorical..meaning it was really a statement that indicated that no one needs anything. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I see your point and mine too...I honor myself and you at the same time. I speak from my voice however and not yours - you can do that yourself, you dont me to do your speaking for you. I sincerely believe that ultimately, no one needs anything - we already have everything. Needs indicate something you dont have. We already have immortality, we already have all things - they are stuck to us like glue. I am sorry it upsets you that I disagree with you. I am here to speak my wisdom and not to blindly follow others in theirs. I never tried to force you to my way, just answered you from my own self. If you see this as not contributing anything, perhaps you should do some soul searching.

 

Let me expand, as I see you are getting upset and trying to play it off as being my responsibility. I understand that when a person writes their story and becomes attached to form...that they then create needs for themselves. In order to be something specific, you have to have things a certain way. Needs are form specific. But if we are not attached to form, there are no needs. Needs only exist when attachment exists. You think you own your life, but I say that life owns you. Because you think you own who you are, then in order to be that which you think you own, you 'need' certain conditions to exist in order for this idea of 'me-ness' to continue. Hence needing air, etc. This is true only if the idea of self is true. Especially and specifically if the idea of self includes 'having' a human body. Then yes, if this is your view, you do need air. However, I am largely Buddhist, and they think the self is false - look for it and it cannot be found. It is simply composed of aggregates - a compounded illusion that exists in our heads, a mind fabrication. The body is not the self. So now you know where I am coming from. I do not believe I am the body, that I am my mind, that I am even my 'I' - no 'I': no 'I' = no needs, period. Hence, as this board exists for DISCUSSION, I have simply discussed my views. If you want to take it personally that I disagree with you, I have a few options: 1) reflect your discontent back at you, i.e. fight fire with fire and get into a clash of minds, 2) respond with emptiness, i.e. simply ignore you and allow you to dwell in your own discontent while removing myself from the suffering altogether, 3) or lastly I can pull you forward by only asking you questions, and making no statements, and allowing you to talk about your beliefs while offering none of my own. I have chosen the first one, because that is who I am at this moment...if I wanted to be the most nicest to you, I would choose option three. If I wanted to be nicest to myself I would choose option two. I have chosen to be somewhere in the middle, which is to both honor you and myself. I will not pet and stroke your ego, and would not expect you to do the same with me. You make your choices, I make mine - we co-create what is. Do you still have a complaint?

Edited June 14, 2013 by Songtsan

[ChiForce]

Hmm..yeah, and so who are you then???? Have you decided it yet?

[Songtsan]

Hmm..yeah, and so who are you then???? Have you decided it yet?

 

No one, everyone, me and not me...what I feel I am in the moment and not that too. Sorry to sound like I am trying to be witty, be these really are all true. To fixate on any one aspect of my (illusory yet real, real yet illusory) self would deny other parts that also exist. I am all the selves of my self, all the selves of all the selves. I am a mirror fractured into a thousand pieces, reflecting a thousand reflections of a thousand other fractured mirrors. These fractured mirrors are all reflections of the one big unfractured mirror...BUT- we only see the reflections of the fractured mirrors that we are when we look at this mirror....until we realize the fractures are illusions.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Songtsan

[Vmarco]

That's your definition of enlightenment, not mine.

 

Didn't you post a story about a enlightened guy changed fishbone into a fish swimming away in air?

 

Tilopa's Shoe

 

 

The story of Tilopa's Shoe is one of my personal favorites, and has been an integral guide in my life's path since I read it at 19. It's a story of intrigue, magick, humor, and enlightenment. Much of the following was adapted from Alexandra David-Neel's 1929 'Mystiques et Magicens du Thibet' as told to her through the oral tradition. Madame David-Neel, who was fluent in Tibetan, spent fourteen years in the magical and mysterious Land of Snows.

 

 

Tilopa was a Bengali, some say of noble caste, who lived during the 11th Century CE. He chose to leave his home and seek realization through meditation and study in a remote area near the Tibetan border. While seated in a cave reading a philosophic treatise, a beggar woman appeared behind him, read a few lines over his shoulder and asked abruptly, "do you understand what you are reading?" Tilopa was irked. What does this witch mean by such an unmannerly question, he thought. But before he could express his feelings, she spit on the book. Tilopa jumps up and shouts "how dare you spit on the Holy Scriptures". The woman then spits again on the book, utters a word Tilopa cannot understand, and disappears.

 

Tilopa felt an uncomfortable sensation through his body. Doubt of his knowledge arose in his mind. After all he pondered, it may be true that he had not understood the doctrine expounded in the treatise, or any doctrine whatever, and that he may be an absolute dunce. What did that strange woman say, he thought. What was that word he did not comprehend? He felt he must know it. And so Tilopa started in search of the old woman. After much wandering, he found her at night in a solitary wood. She was seated along, her red eyes shining like live coals in the darkness. She was a Dakini, a kind of faery or 'sky-flyer' who played a great part in mystic Tibet as teachers of secret doctrines. They often appear in the shape of an aged woman, and one of their peculiar signs is that they have red or green eyes.

 

In the course of the conversation, Tilopa was directed to go to the Dakini's land, in order to meet their queen and learn the Heart teachings of the Dakini. She told him that on the road, countless dangers awaited him, like abysses, roaring torrents, ferocious animals, delusive mirages. If he allowed himself to be overpowered by fear or missed the narrow, threadlike path winding across this terrible region, he would fall prey to monsters. If he drank at the clear springs or ate the fruits hanging at hand on the trees by the road, or yielded to fair maidens inviting him to sport with them in pleasant groves, he would become bewildered and incapable of finding his way. For his protection, the woman gave him a magic formula; a mantra. She said he must repeat it all along the road, keeping his mind entirely concentrated on it, uttering no word, listening to nothing.

 

Tilopa saw the countless, frightful or alluring sights. He struggled across steep, rocky slopes and foaming rivers. He felt himself freezing amidst snows, scorched on burning sandy steppes, and never departed from his concentration on the magic words. At last, he reached the castle whose bronze walls were glowing with heat. Trees, with branches holding weapons, barred his way. Yet, he entered the enchanted palace. There, innumerable sumptuous rooms formed a maze. Tilopa winded his way through them and reached the queen's apartment. The beautiful faery sat on her throne adorned with precious jewels, and she smiled at the daring pilgrim as he crossed the threshold. But Tilopa was unmoved by her loveliness, ascended the steps of the throne and, still repeating the mantra, wrenched from her the glittering jewels, trampled under foot the flowery garlands, tore away her precious silk and golden robes, and as she lay naked on her wrecked throne, he violated her.

 

Such conquests of a Dakini, either by sheer violence or by magic devices, are a popular theme in Tibetan mystic literature. They are an allegory referring to the realization of truth and process of self-spiritual development. Tilopa had thus reached the level of Avadhuta, a state of enlightenment where the distinctions between good and evil do not exist anymore. He, thus, returned to his cave in the north part of Bengal, and the old woman once again appeared. She said that he still had barriers to his full realization of Mahanirvana Tantra, and directed him to go to a particular town and enter the employ of the local prostitute there. Without hesitation, Tilopa found his way to the town and began working for the prostitute. In the day he would grind seed for her oils, and at night, he would pander her clients.

 

One day, as he was grinding sesame seeds in a mortar on his lap, he realized and released his last barrier to the Light and Love he was and levitated to the height of a palm tree while still grinding sesame seeds in the mortar on his lap. When the prostitute saw Tilopa suspended in air, still making her oil, the harlot was overcome with shame for having given this task to such an enlightened being.

 

She contemplated begging Tilopa for the privilege of being his disciple; and in that very moment he released a flower, which hit her on the head, and as if being struck by the diamond-thunderbolt of Vajra, the prostitute instantly attained enlightenment, and elevated to Tilopa's side. Tilopa, which means sesame-grinder, realized Mahanirvana Tantra when the seed he was grinding revealed to him the inverse flow of forward moving things, thereby actualizing liberation in one lifetime; the fourth stream of mastery. He called this Fourth Way, Kagyu, the Short Path of Vajra. And it was through the unbroken lineage of Tilopa, the Kagyudpas Red Hats, that the Twentieth Century mystic G. I. Gurdjieff received the foundation of his teachings through the Sarmoun Brotherhood. Tilopa himself had no human guru, having realized liberation through Vajra, the Light of Reality. His most famous student was a learned Kashmiri Brahmin named Naropa, who in turn was the master of Marpa, the Mahasiddha that brought the lineage and doctrine of the Short Path to Tibet.

 

The biography of Naropa is both an amusing and illuminating description of the tests devised by a master of the Short Path to train and direct an initiate. Naropa, born around 1010, c.e., was considered a man of refinement, a learned doctor and deeply convinced of his superiority as a member of the Brahmin caste. Having been greatly offended by a rajah to whom he was chaplain, he resolved to kill the prince by an occult process. For this purpose, he shut himself up in an isolated house and began a magic rite to bring about death; the dragpoi dubhab.

 

As he was performing the rite, a Dakini faery appeared at a corner of the magic diagram and asked Naropa if he deemed himself capable of sending the spirit of the rajah towards a happy place in another world, or of bring it back into the body which it had left and resuscitating it. The magician could only confess that his science did not extend so far. Then the faery assumed a stern presence and reproached him for his nefarious undertaking. She told him that no one had the right to destroy who could not build up again the being destroyed or establish it in a better condition. The consequence of his criminal thought, she added, would be his own rebirth in one of the purgatories.

 

Terror-stricken, Naropa inquired how he could escape that terrible fate. The Dakini advised him to seek the Sage named Tilopa and beg from him initiation into the mystic doctrine of the Short Path which frees a man from the consequences of his actions, whatever they may be, by the revelation of their true nature, and ensures enlightenment in one single life. If he succeeded in grasping the meaning of that teaching and realize it, he would not be reborn again and consequently would escape a life of torment in the purgatories.

 

Naropa stopped the performance of the rite and hastened towards Bengal where Tilopa lived. However, before Naropa would meet the Sage and receive the Ultimate Teaching, that is, Tilopa's Mahamudra, through which Enlightenment could be realized in one lifetime, he would first undergo twelve astonishments, followed by twelve ordeals. The Twelve Astonishments were challenges to Naropa's conditioning, that is, his ego and beliefs; whereas the Twelve Ordeals, or Hardships, were intended to encourage complete surrender.

 

The first meeting of Naropa with Tilopa occurred in the courtyard of a Buddhist monastery. The cynic Sage, nearly naked, was seated on the ground eating fish. As the meal went on, he put down the fish's backbones beside him. However, in order not to defile his cast purity, Naropa was on the point of passing by at some little distance from the eater, when a monk started to reproach Tilopa for parading his lack of compassion for the animals, that is, killing and eating the fish, in the very premises of a Buddhist Monastery; and ordered him to leave at once.

 

Tilopa did not even condescend to answer. He muttered some words, snapped his fingers and the fish bones were again covered with flesh. The fishes then moved as if living and swam away through the air as if it was water. No vestige remained of the cruel meal on the ground. Naropa was dazed, but suddenly thought that this strange wonder worker, no doubt, was the very Tilopa whom he was seeking. He hurriedly inquired about him, and the information given by the monks agreed with his own intuition. He ran after the Sage, but Tilopa was nowhere to be found. Then in his eagerness to learn the doctrine that could save him from the purgatories, Naropa wanders from town to town with the only result being that each time he reaches a place where Tilopa is said to be staying, the latter has, invariably just left it a little before his arrival.

 

In the coming months, as if by chance on his way, Naropa would meet singular beings who were phantoms created by Tilopa. Once, knocking at the door of a house to beg food, a man comes out who offers him wine. To offer wine or spirit to a high caste Brahmin is an insult, so Naropa feels deeply offended and indignantly refuses the impure beverage. The house and its master vanish immediately. The proud Brahmin is left alone on the solitary road, while a mocking voice laughs that man was I, Tilopa.

 

Again, the traveler sees a brutal husband who drags his wife buy her hair, and when he interferes, the cruel fellow tells him, you had better help me, I want to kill her. At least pass your way and let me do it. Naropa can hear no more. He knocks the man down on the ground, sets free the woman, and, lo!, once more the pantasmagoria disappears while the same voice repeats scornfully, I was there, I, Tilopa. The adventures continue in the same vein. Proficient magician though he may be, Naropa has never even conceived the idea of such display of supernormal powers. He stands on the brink of madness, the beliefs he clung to for his identity shaken to their core, but his fortitude to become Tilopa's disciple grew still stronger. He roamed at random across the country, calling Tilopa aloud and, knowing by experience that the Sage is capable of assuming any form, he bows down at the feet of any passer-by and even before any animal he happens to see on the road.

 

One evening, after a long walk, he reaches a cemetary. A fire is smouldering in a corner; at times, a dark, reddish flame leaps from it showing shriveled- up, carbonized remains. The glimmer allows Naropa to vaguely discern a man laying beside the fire. He looks at him, and a mocking laugh answers his inspection. He falls prostrate on the ground at Tilopa's feet. This time the Sage does not disappear. The obscurations which inhibited Naropa from recognizing the Sage had waned.

 

During the next several years, Naropa followed Tilopa without being treated as of any import, athough the Sage engages him in twelve ordeals, as mentioned above. Each Ordeal or Hardship, according to later Mahasiddhas of the lineage, contained one of twelve instructions of the Fourth Empowerment. As the first three empowerments encouraged the blossoming of the sapiential mind, the Fourth liberated the sapiential mind. However, only a few of the ordeals will be given here to grasp the principle of Naropa's release from his belief barriers and surrender to the Sage, whereby he fully understood the acquenscence of who he thought he was, and realized who he actually was.

 

One of Naropa's first hardships arose following a begging round. According to the custom of Indian ascetics can beg for food, or alms, once a day. Coming back to his master, he offered him the rice and curry which he had received as alms. The rule is that a disciple eats only after his guru is satisfied, but far from leaving something for his follower, Tilopa ate up the whole contents of the bowl, and even declared that the food was so much to his taste that he could have eaten another bowl full with pleasure.

 

Without waiting for a more direct command, Naropa took the bowl and started again for the house where generous householders bestowed such tasty alms, even though he knew he could not beg again. When he arrived, he found the door closed. However, burning with zeal, the devoted disciple did not let himself be stopped for so little. He forced the door open, discovered some rice and various stews keeping warm on the stove in the kitchen and helped himself to more of what Tilopa had so much enjoyed. The masters of the house came back as he was plunging a spoon in their pots and gave him a harsh thrashing. Bruised from head to feet, Naropa returned to the Sage, who showed no compassion whatever for his suffering.

 

What adventure has befallen you on my account, he said with a cynical calm. Do you not regret having become my disciple? With all the strength that his pitiful condition left at his disposal, Naropa protested that far from regretting having followed such a Sage, he deemed the privilege of being his disciple could never be paid for too dearly, even if one was to purchase it at the cost of one's life. Another ordeal took place while Sage and disciple lived in a hut near a forest. Once, returning from the village with Tilopa's meal, Naropa saw that during his absence, the latter had fabricated a number of long bamboo needles, and with covered with molten butter, hardened them in a fire. Inquisitively he inquired about the use Tilopa meant to make of these implements.

 

The Sage responded with a queer smile. Could you, he asked, bear some pain if it pleased me? Naropa answered that he belonged entirely to him and that he would do whatever he liked with him. Well, replied Tilopa, stretch out your hand. And when Naropa had obeyed, he thrust one of the needles under each of the nails of one hand, did the same to the other, and finished with the toes. Then he pushed the tortured Naropa into the hut, commanded him to wait there till he returned, closed the door, and went away.

 

Several days elapsed before he came back. He found Naropa seated on the ground, the bamboo needles still in his flesh. What did you think while alone?, inquired Tilopa. Have you not come to 'believe' that I am a cruel master and that you had better leave me? I have been thinking of the dreadful life of torments which will be mine in the purgatories if I do not succeed, by your grace, in becoming enlightened in the mystic doctrine, and so escaping a new rebirth and having to begin all over, answered Naropa. As the years went by, Naropa drank fowl water, a defiling thing according to religious law; crossed a blazing fire, nearly drowned in icy water, and performed other fantastic feats which often put his life in jeopardy.

 

Once, Sage and disciple were strolling in the streets when they happened to meet a wedding procession accompanying a bride to her husband's house. I desire that woman, said Tilopa to Naropa. Go bring her to me. He had scarcely finished speaking before Naropa joined the cortege. Seeing that he was a Brahmin, the men of the wedding party allowed him to approach the bride, thinking that he meant to bless her. But when they saw that he took her in his arms and intended to carry her away, they seized on everything they could find and belabored poor Naropa so soundly that he fainted and was left for dead. Tilopa had not waited for the end of the performance to pass quietly on his way. When Naropa came to his senses again and had painfully dragged himself along until he overtook his whimsical guru, the latter, as welcome, asked him once more the usual question, Do you not regret?. And as usual, Naropa protested that a thousand deaths seemed to him but a trifle to purchase the privilege of being his disciple.

 

By some accounts, Naropa's last ordeal was said to have occurred at the end of a day walking in a remote mountainous region. Stopping at a cliff, Tilopa asked, what if it would please me for you to jump off this cliff? Before the final word was finished, Naropa leaps off the cliff, breaking nearly every bone in his body. Tilopa made his way down the steep, rocky cliff and asked Naropa who was clearly in agony, How are you?. Naropa answered that the pain was unbearable. Then, in a calm voice, Tilopa commanded him to heal himself. Instantaneously Naropa healed himself, and his broken body was fully restored.

 

That evening, while seated at a fire, quite unexpectedly Tilopa took off one of his shoes and soundly slapped Naropa on the head with it. In that instant Naropa saw the inverse flow of forward moving waves of Light, and would not again transgress into the sleep of samsara, the always changing and impermanent dream of Maya. The full meaning of the Short Path was then told to Naropa through Tilopa's twenty-eight verse Mahamudra, or Ultimate Teaching.

 

The story of Tilopa's Shoe is considered a historic occurrence. Several variations of the story exist, some handed down by oral tradition, others written in the biographies of famous lamas. Yet, unlike other philosophies, the historical legitimacy of Kagyu makes no difference, for the essence of the Short Path, the realization of the sapiential Mind in a single lifetime, is contained within the story.

 

VMarco

[Vmarco]

How did you experience your little death? What was it like?

 

Returning to the world of the 6 senses felt so phoney,...a prison of sorts,...and I began a quest to escape,...to escape that which is not real,...but the process did unveil nirvana, the opposite of samsara,...a pleasanter way to live in the illusion. If you really want to wake up,...go see Dolano,...but make certain you really want to wake up,...that is, kill your "me story."

 

To know if you really want to wake up, check out this youtube:

[Songtsan]

The story of Tilopa's Shoe is considered a historic occurrence. Several variations of the story exist, some handed down by oral tradition, others written in the biographies of famous lamas. Yet, unlike other philosophies, the historical legitimacy of Kagyu makes no difference, for the essence of the Short Path, the realization of the sapiential Mind in a single lifetime, is contained within the story.

 

VMarco

 

Great story...

 

I'm curious about this phrase: "inverse flow of forward moving waves of Light" cant quite visualize what it means...

 

also...would you say that Nirvana is just another perception attainment? Even if one stays there all the time? Great video too by the way...it made me think about this story about a Zen monk who spends all his time practicing and practicing harder than any of the other monks, but never attains satori...Years and years go by. Other monks aren't as dedicated as him...they sneak out of the monastery at night to visit the geishas..Year after year goes by...The monk gets nowhere. Finally he gives up, sneaks out to the geishas themselves, sleeps with one, and attains enlightenment that very night.

 

Sometimes it seems that all this spirituality stuff is really just self-help - specifically just how to help ourselves suffer less and feel better. How to become happy within a crazy world, no matter what way that world comes at us. Nonattachment equaling bliss, due to not being attached to what happens to us. Is there anything beyond the realms of pleasure and pain? Even if we do become empty and lose our 'me' and our story, and get filled with the truth that exists outside of stories, won't we still just be energy that is experiencing bliss? (or not whatever the case is)...is it really true that there isn't anything to attain that is better than anything else, as long as you aren't being attached to finding pleasure and avoiding pain? They say one can leave the wheel. and yet the Buddha says there is no self that reincarnates, yet there is one at the same time...it is tendencies that reincarnate the Tibetans say. If we strive our whole life to find some permanent bliss state, isnt that very striving based on attachment to pleasure - so as high and lofty as our goals may seem, it is still attachment based. Even if we seek the bodhisattva ideal - we want to end all suffering and ignorance in the world...still that is attachment to beauty, bliss, perfection, and thus negative attachment to suffering, poverty, pain. And as good as pleasure feels to the awareness, and as bad as pain feels, they are just electrical sensations. How can a noncorporeal 'self' or whatever supposedly gains Nirvana after death experience anything? It seems to me that pain/pleasure are things of animal bodies.

 

Its too bad we dont really really know for sure whether there is a soul (or self)...if there was, people could be more sure what was really important. If I knew I could attain some heavenly abode of permanent bliss and immortality, I probably would be working a lot harder, maybe not cutting off an ounce of my body, but I would be devoting my whole life to it. The doubt that there is a self that exists after death, makes me hem and haw.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Songtsan

[Celestial]

No one, everyone, me and not me...what I feel I am in the moment and not that too. Sorry to sound like I am trying to be witty, be these really are all true. To fixate on any one aspect of my (illusory yet real, real yet illusory) self would deny other parts that also exist. I am all the selves of my self, all the selves of all the selves. I am a mirror fractured into a thousand pieces, reflecting a thousand reflections of a thousand other fractured mirrors. These fractured mirrors are all reflections of the one big unfractured mirror...BUT- we only see the reflections of the fractured mirrors that we are when we look at this mirror....until we realize the fractures are illusions.

 

I read your other post but it was too damn long to quote so I quoted this one instead.

 

You don't need anything. You don't need to be alive. You're absolutely right. Yet, you've in fact have chosen to exist in this form (whatever that is you wish to call it). Therefore in order to stay in this form, you NEED certain things to survive (to maintain this illusion).

 

Once you've chosen not to be in this form, only then you can truly speak about not needing anything. Because as it stands now, you're talking like a hypocrite.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Celestial

[Songtsan]

I read your other post but it was too damn long to quote so I quoted this one instead.

 

You don't need anything. You don't need to be alive. You're absolutely right. Yet, you've in fact have chosen to exist in this form (whatever that is you wish to call it). Therefore in order to stay in this form, you NEED certain things to survive (to maintain this illusion).

 

Once you've chosen not to be in this form, only then you can truly speak about not needing anything. Because as it stands now, you're talking like a hypocrite.

 

I already explained to you my understanding that you need things if you want to maintain a fixed form. You are merely quoting what i already said back to you, after we already went over that. Telling me what I already told you and already know and acting like you are teaching something is ridiculous. I have the feeling you dont even read what I write...anyways, I dont recall ever choosing to exist in this form, in fact I dont really know that there was an 'I' that existed (or could choose) before this life at all..I think that 'life chose me' to exist. Maybe, maybe not...but it makes more sense to me right now- you seem so sure and I am happy for you in your confidence that you existed before as some kind of self that could choose. I myself tend to believe that selves are illusions, and that existence arises as a co-creation. I also sometimes doubt that choice itself exists...did a car choose to exist, did a snail choose to exist? What makes us so special? Just because we have these computer like brains that have more complex logic and memory abilities? It seems that even the simplest animals have feelings.

 

Also, you should be more aware of the definitions of the words you use: 'hypocrite' means that I am pretending to virtues that I dont possess and judging others by my supposed ideals. All I have been doing is expressing my beliefs - I never I said I knew it all, or that I was enlightened, or that I thought I was better than you, or that I wanted you to believe what I do. I do believe what I believe whatever I wish to believe, and I will not let someone like you try to make me feel guilty for believing what I want or speaking my mind. It seems like you have something personal against me - that you are angry - even your avatar looks angry. You have issues you need to deal with. Just don't like me if that's what makes you happy - judge me and call me names if it makes you happy - I will only end up reflecting your arrogance back at you. I am not anymore grown up than that. It will happen naturally - I make no plans. We will end up burning eachother up - if that's what you like - if you want peace - show me peace. I have given you enough chances to say something nice instead of inflammatory, and then if you did, I too would say something nice back again, and we could quit this argument. There are no winners here.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Songtsan

[Celestial]

It wouldn't exist in the first place if there wasn't a need for it to begin with. Why does the Earth need to rotate? Gravity to have any pull? Flowers to grow? Trees to provide oxygen? There's more to this than just your little world. So you're right, hypocrite wasn't the right use of the term, perhaps arrogant is a better choice to describe you. Human arrogance.

 

So you may have these cute out worldly beliefs/ideals but when met with simple logic they crumble. Good day!

 

I'm done with you.

[Songtsan]

It wouldn't exist in the first place if there wasn't a need for it to begin with. Why does the Earth need to rotate? Gravity to have any pull? Flowers to grow? Trees to provide oxygen? There's more to this than just your little world. So you're right, hypocrite wasn't the right use of the term, perhaps arrogant is a better choice to describe you. Human arrogance.

 

So you may have these cute out worldly beliefs/ideals but when met with simple logic they crumble. Good day!

 

I'm done with you.

 

Need is a human based concept and doesnt exist at all in reality outside of the mind. There is only suchness, or what is - is. Period. What happens, happens. What will be, will be. The earth doesnt need to rotate, it just happens that it does. 'Need' is not some universal law like gravity. Need is NOT a law of the universe - get it through your head. Nothing 'needs' to happen - the world won't blow up if trees don't get enough carbon dioxide, or if cars don't get enough gasoline. A car that doesnt have gasoline is still a car. A human without air to breath is still a human, even if they are a dead human. Their essential energy will simply take on another form. Need exists only to maintain form illusions...therefore it too is an illusion Yes, I need air to survive in this body - from a conceptual point of view, but from an ultimate point of view nothing is needed. Its not required for anything to be, even if a whole chain of things breaks down from the loss of one thing in a system. Existence will still exist without the concept of need. Sometimes a complex system simply exists without requiring any parameters. Cause and effect are linked. If there wasn't oxygen in the air humans would never have arisen as they are today - something else would have though. Need is subjective, relative - requirements for specific form sets. Nothing specific has to happen for things still to happen - other, different things will happen instead. This whole discussion was simply the age old battle between dualistic and nondualistic concepts. Nothing other than that. All my concepts are thousands of years old.

 

Here is some Taoism for you, since say you are Taoist:

 

"The awakened mind has never come into being and so cannot disappear or be destroyed, nor can it be analyzed into component parts, nor described or manipulated in any way.The mind itself, abiding calm as itself, itself constitutes enlightenment, the utmost, unspeakable delight called omniscience by the sages. This enlightened knowing, which knows all as simply itself, is birthless and deathless: because it never comes substantially into being, it can never disintegrate or cease to be...."

 

-do you see why I dont think we need anything? If we are to become 'unbecome' or get outside of dualities, which is really about losing the illusion that we aren't already That - join with the absolute, we no longer have to follow the laws of the dual world. We are this.

 

"The immortal can not become mortal, nor the mortal immortal, for there can never, under any circumstance, be a change in one's essential nature."

 

Non-origination - Having no other source than itself; having no birth, or death; without beginning, middle or end; acreate (not created). All things, all worlds, are unoriginated. "

 

"Practice clear serenity, embrace the fundamental, preserve unity, return to emptiness, and go back to nothingness; only thus can one achieve final settlement."

 

-does need exist in emptiness? in nothingness?

 

"If you cease thought and have no conceptions, this is true thought. True though is true emptiness. The realm of true emptiness is the gradual way of transcendence, leaving the city of darkness and going to the court of reality. "

 

-does need exist without the conception of need? Then there is only cause and effect, which is related, but different. Need implies a requirement. Cause and effect are linked like Yin Yang. Cause/effect have no rules such as requirement, cause/effect ARE universal laws...needs ARE NOT. This is simply the way it is.